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Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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Old 07-11-2007, 09:39 AM   #211
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha View Post
Thanks SS.

On a related note, does anyone know how many people work in the health care insurance industry? I'm just curious because I wonder what sort of economic ramifications a universal health care system would have on the overall economy.
Well healthcare spedning accounts for 1/9 of our national GDP I believe. So anything that effects that machinations of it could dramatically change our economy. For the good or bad. We're talking serious economy changes.
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Old 07-11-2007, 09:45 AM   #212
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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I have a story that just happened about 1 month ago. My wife was coming out of wal mart, and a homeless person was on the corner with a sign that said "will work for food". She rolled down the window and said "my lawn needs to be mowed if your interested", (I am very allergic to something in the grass here) he actually said F.U. to her. When I got word of this, I was livid, I drove down there and saw that he had a dog too. I went into wal mart and bought a small bag of dog food. I went up to the homeless person and gave it to him. He asked "what the hell is this"? I said "it's food for your dog, and since you're not willing to work, you can share it with him too." He muttered something, and I said, "maybe next time you should actually do what your sign says and mow a lawn." I drove away to him giving me the finger. But at least the dog won't go hungry.
Damn... that's a dick-move.

I'm not saying what he did was right, but to go to that length to retaliate is pretty childish if you ask me.
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Old 07-11-2007, 09:53 AM   #213
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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Damn... that's a dick-move.

I'm not saying what he did was right, but to go to that length to retaliate is pretty childish if you ask me.
Well I wouldn't have done it but I am struck by the fact that some think we are supposed to care enough to help these type of people unconditionally but we are not supposed care enough to do anything when they act like this.

It seems like it is saying "This guy deserves our help but don't dare judge him on any actions he takes. It's not your place."

I am not saying that you are saying that Matty but it seems like a lot of people want everyone to help without question or even active participation unless it is to only bring sunshine and blow smoke.

That guy needs more people to tell him off. Maybe if enough people put him in his place rather than give him handouts he'll figure out how to get his life on track.
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Old 07-11-2007, 09:59 AM   #214
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

Don't help the guy...hell don't even give him the time of day. But I fail to see what a childish retaliation like that accomplishes. Somehow I don't think tough love is going to change most people like that.
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Old 07-11-2007, 10:15 AM   #215
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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Don't help the guy...hell don't even give him the time of day. But I fail to see what a childish retaliation like that accomplishes. Somehow I don't think tough love is going to change most people like that.
I tend to agree...I certainly wouldn't have wasted my time by getting in my car and driving back over there. But if he had done that to me he'd have caught quite a reaction in the moment.

I would say that if they get enough dressing-downs that a lot of people might finally get a clue. Not all or even most...but then those who don't we can know simply don't deserve help. I honesetly feel that if you are not willing to help yourself then you don't deserve help from anyone. Not if you aren't ABLE to help yourself but if you don't WANT to. If you aren't willing to help yourself then you can bend over and kiss your own ass for all I care. There are too many people who need help and will do wahetever they can to get it for me to worry about those who just want handouts.
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Old 07-11-2007, 10:26 AM   #216
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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To add to what 8588 said. You also have to think of the era. Durin the time periods of WWI and WWII it was not "manly to talk about stuff like that" Not that they didnt have the same issues, but just like a boy thinks that it is not ok to cry, it wasnt ok to address mental issues. Add to that the fact that the military started experimenting all sorts of different drugs on US soldiers during Vietnam, Desert Storm and Enduring @ Iraqi Freedom. Also from a medical standpoint pshchology was not as practiced then as it is now.

To sum it up, all war Vets experienced it in every war. Light just wasnt always shed on the matter.
Also, consider the growing media impact. Vietnam was the first war to really be "televised." Then you had 24 hour news channels with "Desert Storm," and now you have the Internet. There's no longer a filter to the realities and brutalities of war.
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Old 07-11-2007, 10:28 AM   #217
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

I will never forget about a somewhat simialr instance that happened to my father one day. After leaving the grocery store, we pulled up to a stop light and there was a homeless guy there. He starts begging my dad for some money through the window. My dad told him to get into the bed of the truck and we would take him to McDonalds and get him whatever meal he wanted. He basically told my dad to Eff off. Told my dad he didn't like McDonalds and asked if he could just have the money so he could eat somewhere else.

This is why I don't even give these people the time of day. I donate to charities and churches but I will never give money to somebody who stands on the side of the road asking for a handout.
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Old 07-11-2007, 10:31 AM   #218
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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Well I wouldn't have done it but I am struck by the fact that some think we are supposed to care enough to help these type of people unconditionally but we are not supposed care enough to do anything when they act like this.

It seems like it is saying "This guy deserves our help but don't dare judge him on any actions he takes. It's not your place."

I am not saying that you are saying that Matty but it seems like a lot of people want everyone to help without question or even active participation unless it is to only bring sunshine and blow smoke.

That guy needs more people to tell him off. Maybe if enough people put him in his place rather than give him handouts he'll figure out how to get his life on track.
I've had this happen to me too many times here in D.C.

But if you think about it, no really ends up homeless overnight. I mean, sure there could have been some life changing event(s) that took place, but if you've ever talked to some of these people, they did receive help or had people reach out to them many times, but somewhere down the line they just got "tired of holding on" and just let go; It became easier to just let things run it's course rather than continually fight uphill. And then on the other hand, some had no one to turn to at all.

I'm not supporting this or making excuses, I'm just saying this is the mindset behind how many people end up in these situations. Many of them suffer from chronic depression and other mental illnesses that are either debilitaing or, quite frankly, make them difficult to employ, and they simply can't afford to treat these issues because of a lack of healthcare.

Some are angry and bitter about what life has dealt to them, but you know what, so are gainfully employed people that enjoy the everyday luxuries of life we do. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say in all of this, but the old "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" saying just doesn't cut it for me.

I think the vast majority of homeless people need some degree of compassion and for someone to lift them up, so to speak. And for those who don't want to be lifted out of despair, fine, but I think it's right to help those who need it and want it, and not be discouraged by the few bad apples in the barrel.
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Old 07-11-2007, 10:34 AM   #219
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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I think the vast majority of homeless people need some degree of compassion and for someone to lift them up, so to speak. And for those who don't want to be lifted out of despair, fine, but I think it's right to help those who need it and want it, and not be discouraged by the few bad apples in the barrel.
Well stated.
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Old 07-11-2007, 10:40 AM   #220
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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I've had this happen to me too many times here in D.C.

But if you think about it, no really ends up homeless overnight. I mean, sure there could have been some life changing event(s) that took place, but if you've ever talked to some of these people, they did receive help or had people reach out to them many times, but somewhere down the line they just got "tired of holding on" and just let go; It became easier to just let things run it's course rather than continually fight uphill. And then on the other hand, some had no one to turn to at all.

I'm not supporting this or making excuses, I'm just saying this is the mindset behind how many people end up in these situations. Many of them suffer from chronic depression and other mental illnesses that are either debilitaing or, quite frankly, make them difficult to employ, and they simply can't afford to treat these issues because of a lack of healthcare.

Some are angry and bitter about what life has dealt to them, but you know what, so are gainfully employed people that enjoy the everyday luxuries of life we do. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say in all of this, but the old "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" saying just doesn't cut it for me.

I think the vast majority of homeless people need some degree of compassion and for someone to lift them up, so to speak. And for those who don't want to be lifted out of despair, fine, but I think it's right to help those who need it and want it, and not be discouraged by the few bad apples in the barrel.
See, while I agree with everything else you said, aren't the ones standing on the side of the road with their hands out the same ones who basically are trying the easy way out? You'd think that welfare is basically the same thing except instead you're standing inside your own home. I always wonder why they don't just go through the proper channels for help.
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Old 07-11-2007, 10:41 AM   #221
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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I've had this happen to me too many times here in D.C.

But if you think about it, no really ends up homeless overnight. I mean, sure there could have been some life changing event(s) that took place, but if you've ever talked to some of these people, they did receive help or had people reach out to them many times, but somewhere down the line they just got "tired of holding on" and just let go; It became easier to just let things run it's course rather than continually fight uphill. And then on the other hand, some had no one to turn to at all.

I'm not supporting this or making excuses, I'm just saying this is the mindset behind how many people end up in these situations. Many of them suffer from chronic depression and other mental illnesses that are either debilitaing or, quite frankly, make them difficult to employ, and they simply can't afford to treat these issues because of a lack of healthcare.

Some are angry and bitter about what life has dealt to them, but you know what, so are gainfully employed people that enjoy the everyday luxuries of life we do. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say in all of this, but the old "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" saying just doesn't cut it for me.

I think the vast majority of homeless people need some degree of compassion and for someone to lift them up, so to speak. And for those who don't want to be lifted out of despair, fine, but I think it's right to help those who need it and want it, and not be discouraged by the few bad apples in the barrel.
I've heard this argument before and I can understand it. Having never been homeless or anywhere near it I can admit my perspective is certainly dubious but then again so is everyone's here. I will add that many/most people in the worls making these arguments have just as dubious a perspective as the rest of us. With that said I:

I am pretty tired of hearing this argument. Yes, many homeless people have mental issues. How many have self inflicted mental issues though? I don't know but I think I am smart enough to know that it isn't an insignificant portion. Not sure of the number but I do know an astoundingly high amount of homeless people are alcoholics/drgu addicts and many attribute their place in life to alcoholism. No matter what some would have you believe alcohol is a choice. No one makes you drink to the point of self-destruct. As for drugs well they were a stupid decision when you started and if you can't bring yourself to do what is necessary to kick them then why should I?

My problem is with the portion of the homless that simply are looking for handouts, not helping hands. This is not a small portion. Ther are plenty of homeless that deserve help but to get help you need to show that you are going to use it for the better. You are going to advance your place in life. Otherwise it is simpy a drain.

I agree the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" doesn't get it done most of the time. I want everyone to help them "pull themselves up" But they need to be pulling too. If they aren't then they don't deserve help.
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Old 07-11-2007, 10:48 AM   #222
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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See, while I agree with everything else you said, aren't the ones standing on the side of the road with their hands out the same ones who basically are trying the easy way out? You'd think that welfare is basically the same thing except instead you're standing inside your own home. I always wonder why they don't just go through the proper channels for help.

To that I don't have an answer; And yes, I've seen them with their hand out on the side of the road.

But my guess is, we tend to scrutinize their actions a little more, rightfully or wrongfully I don't know, because they are indeed homeless and we want to know "why and how".
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Old 07-11-2007, 10:52 AM   #223
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

I'd like to see some studies or research on this issue. I see a lot of strong assumptions being made and frankly I think people are quite biased in thinking that most homeless people are just lazy drunks or drug addicts looking for handouts.
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Old 07-11-2007, 11:00 AM   #224
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

I see plenty of homeless people with the signs on the side of the road but, really, that's a bare fraction of the entire homeless population and some of those lazy assess aren't even homeless. Using the "roadside guys" as general example of homeless people is Michael Moore-ish (misleading). I volunteer on occasion at a soup kitchen. Seeing a mother and father with 2 kids in tow looking like at any moment they could just burst into tears will alter your way of thinking. Some people go through a run of bad circumstances that takes the will to fight right out of you. Try doing anything when you truly feel it won't make a bit of difference because so far nothing has. I challenge anyone to go homeless for 3 months and then try to get back on your feet with no help from mommy and daddy or whoever you might have as a benefactor.
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Old 07-11-2007, 11:05 AM   #225
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Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

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I've heard this argument before and I can understand it. Having never been homeless or anywhere near it I can admit my perspective is certainly dubious but then again so is everyone's here. I will add that many/most people in the worls making these arguments have just as dubious a perspective as the rest of us. With that said I:

I am pretty tired of hearing this argument. Yes, many homeless people have mental issues. How many have self inflicted mental issues though? I don't know but I think I am smart enough to know that it isn't an insignificant portion. Not sure of the number but I do know an astoundingly high amount of homeless people are alcoholics/drgu addicts and many attribute their place in life to alcoholism. No matter what some would have you believe alcohol is a choice. No one makes you drink to the point of self-destruct. As for drugs well they were a stupid decision when you started and if you can't bring yourself to do what is necessary to kick them then why should I?

My problem is with the portion of the homless that simply are looking for handouts, not helping hands. This is not a small portion. Ther are plenty of homeless that deserve help but to get help you need to show that you are going to use it for the better. You are going to advance your place in life. Otherwise it is simpy a drain.

I agree the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" doesn't get it done most of the time. I want everyone to help them "pull themselves up" But they need to be pulling too. If they aren't then they don't deserve help.
I agree here too. But the fact is, many Americans are probably one or two paychecks away from being pretty darn close to homeless. I think what separates them from the homeless guy or woman, in some cases at least, is they actually have either the sheer tenacity or the resourses to actually keep them off the streets.

I guess my position on this really stems from two things: My belief in the scriptures that adheres to the idea that we should feed the hungry, provide shelter for the homeless, and cloth the naked. To me that's not just a Christian tenet, but a human tenet as well. I also think there is something very American about taking care of those less fortunate. Of course, all things must be done in balance and not put too much of a strain on those that keep the ecomony churning, but I think you guys get the spirit of what I saying here.

And let me say this one last thing too - I don't think the question of whether or not many are deserving should enter into the equation. Because I've received a lot of shit over the course of my life that I didn't deserve, and yet here I am.
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