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Let's impeach the president.

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Old 06-01-2007, 01:07 AM   #166
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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Originally Posted by firstdown View Post
You mean the US Attorneys that the President can fire anytime that he wants to and other presidents have done the same thing. The problem is that Bush should have just come out and said I decided to fire them so that what I did. End of story. The Washington post has done so many stories on Abu Ghraib you would have thought that we were breaking their arms, cutting off fingers, shocking them and all of that bad stuff. Ok, we had a few people do some dumb stuff but that should be the end of the story. What torture techniques that we are using that are so bad Depriving them of sleep, dripping water in their face?
The torture technique we use was first developed by Brazile and then adopted for use by the U.S. at Gitmor and Abu Graib. It is regarded as the most viscious permanently impairing system of torture, both physically and psychologically, in the world. It was demonstrated for Rumsfeld at Gitmo, where Rumsfeld participated in the torture of a prisoner. The Red Cross once reported that two eighty year old men who were both mentally ill at Gitmo we kept in a small cell 24 hours at day lying in their own excretement.

To date, it has produced much destruction and death, but almost no useful information or convictions.
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Old 06-01-2007, 01:24 AM   #167
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha View Post
You definately make some interesting points. I definately agree that law enforcement actions against individuals caught in the U.S. should be conducted in the same manner as other criminal trials. I don't know, however, whether the war on terrorism against individuals overseas is a law enforcement action. The "war on terrorism" is both a law enforcement action and a war.

Also, the military tribunals are nothing new as FDR did them back in WWII - a much more conventional war. Moreover, they are okay with the Supreme Court (the details may need to be worked out in a new case, but they're generally okay with the High Court).
Trials of any kind of prisoners of war by the arresting country are prohibited by the Geneva Conventions, including miliary tribunials of the arresting county. Such trials have to be conducted by neutral countries.
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Old 06-01-2007, 01:32 AM   #168
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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And if we are taking a poll...
I support this President and I support the war. I think them crazy bastards are harder to figure out when it comes down to killing each other so our tacktics may needs some tweaking but I would rather kill them poor bastards over there then fight them over here.

peace
You think Iraq is going to attack us over here. How? Do they have a Navy? Maybe Saddam put all the WMD's on ships and the ships are currently hanging out at the South Pole just waiting to get us when we stop fighting Iraqis "over there." Seems to me they should attack us here when our troops are in Iraq.
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Old 06-01-2007, 01:38 AM   #169
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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Actually it's more like an indictment. I think I explained it pretty well on pg 1. When I read through the following posts the next day I felt like Mr. Hand from Fast Times.
Granted. You are correct.
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Old 06-01-2007, 01:40 AM   #170
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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Trials of any kind of prisoners of war by the arresting country are prohibited by the Geneva Conventions, including miliary tribunials of the arresting county. Such trials have to be conducted by neutral countries.
"Prisoner of war" is a term of art. POW status is not afforded to unlawful enemy combatants. Once a person is deemed an unlawful enemy combatant, they are denied POW privileges (e.g., the right to a trial by a neutral country). Under U.S. law (which, by the way, governs U.S. court proceedings), the President is delegated the broad authority to determine whether someone captured in Afghanistan or Iraq is an unlawful enemy combatant. Whether you disagree with U.S. law or not, it is what it is and the detention and trial of unlawful enemy combatants captured in Iraq or Afghanistan is not illegal. Air America radio might say otherwise, but they're simply wrong.
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Old 06-01-2007, 01:44 AM   #171
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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The torture technique we use was first developed by Brazile and then adopted for use by the U.S. at Gitmor and Abu Graib. It is regarded as the most viscious permanently impairing system of torture, both physically and psychologically, in the world. It was demonstrated for Rumsfeld at Gitmo, where Rumsfeld participated in the torture of a prisoner. The Red Cross once reported that two eighty year old men who were both mentally ill at Gitmo we kept in a small cell 24 hours at day lying in their own excretement.
First, to say that the "torture" techniques employed at Gitmo are the "most vicious permanently impairing system ... in the world" is a major overstatement. Hyperbole works great with some people, but not with me.

Second, to say that Rumself personally participated in the torture on a prisoner is also a little strange. Please see my first point. Speaking the truth and making sound arguments goes a lot further than making things up or exaggerating.
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Old 06-01-2007, 02:14 AM   #172
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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So Crazyhorse, you're what like 65 years old or something right? You lived through our involvement in Korea, the spread of communism, Vietnam, the Soviet-Afghanistan war, Kosovo, etc. How are things different now-with our involvement in other country's affairs-than they were 10, 20, 50 years ago?
I think the current war is very much like Nam-- a bogus threat, hidden agendas, scurilous behaviour by the CIA, suppressed documents, fear mongering, charges of anti-Americanism, wide-spread lying by the U.S. Government, nationwide calls for impeachment, victimization of and unfair treatment of U.S. soldiers by our government, violations of the Geneva Conventions, and massive numbers of citizens trying to justify war crimes because of their own irrational fears (an indication of cowardice.)

I was a little young to know much about Korea but chiefly remember the worship of McArthur, which I now recognize to have been almost sad in relation to a people's need of a charasmatic leader. Otherwise, the war seems to me now to have been forced upon us, to have been necessary, moral, relatively free of political deception and military misbehavior. I consider the U.S. to have acquitted itself very well in relation to the Korea War.
I was an infant during most of World War II, and don't see how we could have done much better. Our sacrifice was great and for a great cause. War is vile, of course, and produces vile behavior and general insanity, but I still think we did well, considering. In relation to the Soviet-Afghan war, I think our policy was sound , our behavior commendable and the after-effects (the end of the cold war) were extremely desirable. I applaud Clinton for Kosovo and the first President Bush for Desert Storm and restraint. If I had been Clinton, we would have interceded in Rwanda and I'm ashamed we didn't as I am ashamed now that we haven't interceded in Darfur.
That's essentially my take:
Bad to atrocious: Nam, the current war in Iraq, Rwanda, Darfur
Good to Great: Soviet-Afghan, Desert Storm, Korea, Kosovo, World War II.

Thanks for asking.
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Old 06-01-2007, 02:23 AM   #173
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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War ain't pretty. He's not the first Commander-in-Chief to order bombing attacks, many of which leave behind innocent victims.

By the way, I "love" how you keep saying Bush is torturing, as if he personally is the one going down there.
Our torture policy is Bush's torture policy. Cluster bombs are internationally banned because of their special danger to children. It is a war crime to use them. Bush has used cluster bombs in Iraq knowing this and also knowing that Iraq is no threat to us. Truman wiped out people with nuclear bombs, but Japan was a danger to us and it can be argued that the bombs saved lives by ending the war quickly. Also, at the time Truman hit Japan we had not yet created the Geneva Conventions and signed them. Bush's continued bombing of civilian populations after the capture of Saddam was not only heartless and illegal but helped turn the Iraqis and the world against us.
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Old 06-01-2007, 02:33 AM   #174
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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Our torture policy is Bush's torture policy. Cluster bombs are internationally banned because of their special danger to children. It is a war crime to use them. Bush has used cluster bombs in Iraq knowing this and also knowing that Iraq is no threat to us. Truman wiped out people with nuclear bombs, but Japan was a danger to us and it can be argued that the bombs saved lives by ending the war quickly. Also, at the time Truman hit Japan we had not yet created the Geneva Conventions and signed them. Bush's continued bombing of civilian populations after the capture of Saddam was not only heartless and illegal but helped turn the Iraqis and the world against us.
Geneva Conventions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 06-01-2007, 02:51 AM   #175
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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"Prisoner of war" is a term of art. POW status is not afforded to unlawful enemy combatants. Once a person is deemed an unlawful enemy combatant, they are denied POW privileges (e.g., the right to a trial by a neutral country). Under U.S. law (which, by the way, governs U.S. court proceedings), the President is delegated the broad authority to determine whether someone captured in Afghanistan or Iraq is an unlawful enemy combatant. Whether you disagree with U.S. law or not, it is what it is and the detention and trial of unlawful enemy combatants captured in Iraq or Afghanistan is not illegal. Air America radio might say otherwise, but they're simply wrong.
Prisoner of war is not a term of art, but it is a loose term. POW is not so much a status as a classification and matters in a practical sense very little to the Geneva Conventions accept as a general term. Bush's PR has many believing otherwise but the Conventions protect any prisoner of any opposing force of any kind, including all alledged terrorists and insurgents or any people no matter how they are dressed (with the exception of spies, who represent themselves as non-combatants, and can be tried and punished). No government can torture or mistreat any combatants, lawful or so-called unlawful, and that includes using kangaroo courts to sentence prisoners for crimes. To classify a person as a terrorist requires a fair trial, which has stopped Bush thus far from trying Gitmo prisoners (since there is no evidence). The Conventions were meant to stop all torture and mistreatment of prisoners of international war. They do not allow the mistreatment of torture of anyone at all, including terrorists and suspected terrorists.
In relation to international law and agreements, it doesn't matter what laws are created by our government. The U.S. signed the Geneva Conventions and the Geneva Conventions make world leaders,including our leaders, who are sworn by oath of office to uphold international agreements, guilty of war crimes if they allow or institute practices that violate the Conventions. Further, the U.S. has signed other international agreements outlawing torture and mistreatment of prisoners.
Further yet, international agreements, including the Geneva Conventions, do not give the U.S. the right to classify prisoners as it sees fit at any given time. Each agreement does its own classifying. It would be absolutely pointless and absurd for any international agreement to let the various counties that sign the agreements change the definition of torture when they wanted to and at any time classify prisoners as they wished. A minute's thought would tell you that any such absurdity would defeat the whole purpose of the agreements.
Bush and his minions live in an Alice in Wonderland world in which any rediculous argument can be thought of as true by masses of people if it is only repeated enough times on Fox news. Bushies are constantly trying to remake reality.
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Old 06-01-2007, 03:06 AM   #176
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

Here's a good debate related to this topic:

YouTube - Noam Chomsky vs. William F. Buckley Debate : Part 1 of 2
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Old 06-01-2007, 03:25 AM   #177
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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You think Iraq is going to attack us over here. How? Do they have a Navy? Maybe Saddam put all the WMD's on ships and the ships are currently hanging out at the South Pole just waiting to get us when we stop fighting Iraqis "over there." Seems to me they should attack us here when our troops are in Iraq.
Actually his WMD's were only capable of going as far as the Mediterranian when launched from H4 in western Iraq. I know that this supports your argument. He never had the capability of launching a missile to hit a country further than Israel without it hitting the Water. Not all of the troops are in Iraq. Only about 1/4 if that. You have to remember that we have Guard and Reserve in 4 branches as well. Not to mention the fact that if they were to invade, they would never make it through the Ghetto's or the South alive. There are to many Americans that bear arms.
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Old 06-01-2007, 03:27 AM   #178
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

Did I mention that Bush took an oath of office to uphold international agreements signed by the United States. Violation of that oath is an impeachable offense.

As to whether or not Bush can be sentenced by a foreign court for war crimes under the Geneva Conventions, the answer is yes. Even is the United States had not signed the Geneva Conventions, he could still be found guilty of war crimes and sentenced.
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Old 06-01-2007, 09:33 AM   #179
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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Originally Posted by Crazyhorse1 View Post
Our torture policy is Bush's torture policy. Cluster bombs are internationally banned because of their special danger to children. It is a war crime to use them. Bush has used cluster bombs in Iraq knowing this and also knowing that Iraq is no threat to us. Truman wiped out people with nuclear bombs, but Japan was a danger to us and it can be argued that the bombs saved lives by ending the war quickly. Also, at the time Truman hit Japan we had not yet created the Geneva Conventions and signed them. Bush's continued bombing of civilian populations after the capture of Saddam was not only heartless and illegal but helped turn the Iraqis and the world against us.
So I guess Clinton is a war criminal since he ordered the armed forces to attack Kosovo with cluster bombs and DU-shells?
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Old 06-01-2007, 09:51 AM   #180
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

Crazyhorse,
Acccording to the U.S. Supreme Court (which, by the way, consists of people a lot smarter than either of us and who just might know a lot about the law), military tribunals that try unlawful enemy combatants are perfectly legal and not barred by ANY treaty signed by the U.S. Those military tribunals, which you call kangaroo courts, are "competent tribunals" under the GCs who CAN legally determine whether someone is an enemy combatant and can be denied POW status. Moreover, FDR used such military tribunals to try and execute Nazis who ended up on our shores to conduct sabotage operations. So, the use of tribunals is nothing new. Finally, when researching this stuff, please refer to U.S. case-law (including that which interprets international law).

PS - I'm still wondering where you found out that Rumsfeld personally tortured a detainee.
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