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Let's impeach the president.

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Old 06-04-2007, 03:59 PM   #181
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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Originally Posted by FRPLG View Post
And, might I add, it is this kind of attitude that creates an "us versus them" mentality that stiffles discussion and leads us no where.

At the end of the day people need to realize that, guess what, on some issues Dems are more right than Reps and vice versa. That is why compromise is so important. That is why discussion is so important. Without true debate and hasing out of issues all we get is one sided simple solutions to complex problems. Maybe if polticiams got back on the same page that would end. The same page is that of doing what is right for EVERYONE. Not just the poor people, and not just the rich.
this is one of the best posts ever. we usually dont agree on politics, but you are dead on with this.
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Old 06-04-2007, 04:02 PM   #182
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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So your saying the terrorist plotts that we have broken up over the past couple of years and just this past weekend have been reationary. I say everything that the president has tried to do to fight terrorism the dems. have attacked him for one reason or another. Could you please give us a few of the dems. ideas to fight terrorism sense you say they have these ideas.
this is normal politics. everyone gets in an uproar over this, but it happens with every administration. no one gets any free passes any more. remember the republicans questioning bill clinton on the amount he would spend on a haircut?
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Old 06-04-2007, 04:03 PM   #183
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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I mean, who has solid ideas on terrorism? Certainly not the Republicans. Washington as a whole has been in a reactionary mode post 9/11; On both sides of the aisle, I might add.

This notion that the Dems don't have any solid ideas, in my opinion, just isn't true. Especially on terrorism. Yes, the Dems have had some issues, but I don't think they lack "ideas". I think they have, at least up until now, lacked solid leadership that can brand the party together and move them in one direction. This is why this election is so important. The nominee, and hopefully the new President, whether that be Hillary or Obama, has to be a visionary and set the course for the party for the next 8 years, if not more.
The Democratic party has been hijacked by the super left. Their party positions do not reflect the the general position of the everyday democratic folks. The same has really starting taking shape in the Republican party but it is not quite as pronounced. I am pretty dubious that any of the current candiates are prepared to take hold of the democratic party and instill some moderation. I have more hopes for the republicans because the debacle with Bush has potentially opened some eyes. We'll see. I still have not even remotely heard one idea from the democrats on what to do about terrorism.
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Old 06-04-2007, 04:07 PM   #184
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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So your saying the terrorist plotts that we have broken up over the past couple of years and just this past weekend have been reationary. I say everything that the president has tried to do to fight terrorism the dems. have attacked him for one reason or another. Could you please give us a few of the dems. ideas to fight terrorism sense you say they have these ideas.

For the record, we've done a great job at breaking up terrorist plots over the past few years. The JFK incident this weekend and the Fort Dix plot are two that immediately come to mind.

Secondly, I don't want to get into this my party vs. your party jousting. Debate is healthy, critism is not. But I won't stand around and let people take shots at the Dems as the party of 'no ideas' when this is by and large George Bush's war. That fact is we have to move forward and collectively figure out a way to make this work.

It's not that the Dems have attacked him so much on his war on terror, remember most of them voted in favor of invading Iraq. It's that they aren't satisfied with the current results and the President's reluctance to change course. Those are the two biggest issues Congress and the Senate have. This isn't a Democratic or Republican issue, this is the general mood in Washington right now.

As far as what the Dems 'ideas' are for getting out of Iraq? Well, I think that all depends on which candidate you actually talk to or listen to. Let's face it, there are no good options on the table right now. The options are bad and worse. But they do all, pretty much, unanimously agreee that it's time to withdraw troops in a timely fashion. I think there are some slight differences between the candidates on how to do this and under what timelines.
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Old 06-04-2007, 04:35 PM   #185
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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OK I'll help you some Hillary really had nothing on her site but Obama did address some issues on terrorism.
Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton: On The Issues
BarackObama.com | Protecting Our Homeland

Thanks for the help, but I knew Obama's position
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Old 06-04-2007, 04:41 PM   #186
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
Agreed. The democratic strategy currently is to look at George Bush's poor approval rating and claim that the plan is to do the opposite of what he's doing.

There are no fresh ideas. NONE.

- How do you propose we get out of Iraq without seeing the Iraqi government, military, and police force fold to the well-funded (by Iran and Syria) insurgency?

- How do you propose we maintain the historically very low levels of unemployment and inflation AND balance the budget at the same time?

- How do you propose we free ourselves from the dependency on foreign oil? I hear you say "we have to reduce our dependency on foreign oil", but I don't hear any "HOW".

- How do you propose we stop the ascending costs of healthcare and college education?

If you're going to just crap on George Bush and expect to make it into office, well, it just might work because so few like George Bush. But you won't get my vote, because crapping on Bush doesn't make you a leader, it just makes you a critic.
You bring some good points to bear Schneed. They would not get my vote either!
Caution: I may be taking parts of your post out of context.

However, that having been said, the fact that I (or anybody else) do not have solutions to the problems you list and the MANY more that concern me does not mean an acceptable, workable answer does not exist. In my opinion, there is no other recourse but to face the music, and..............start.
My problem is finding a candidate/Party that:
1) is serious about fixing this country
2) has the wherewithal to accomplish this
3) has sufficient party backing for same
4) Can rally other forces that will be against them
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Old 06-04-2007, 05:00 PM   #187
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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I don't think that the Rep. party attacked him about his hair cuts it was more like the Rush Lim. and talk shows. They did not attack him getting the hair cut but attacked the fact that the airport had to stop for around 1 1/2 hours while he got the hair cut.
and congress doesn't have anything better to do? come on. if you are a Republican, its your duty to attack the Dem's on as many levels as you can. and the same goes for the Dem's. its not about beliefs anymore. its attacking each other. and this is what we have come to
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Old 06-04-2007, 05:14 PM   #188
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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I don't have a problem with them attacking (so to speak) each other on ideas its the personal attacks that is getting so old.

But you see this is where everything becomes gray. Attacks beget more attacks, and at some point they do become personal.

Each side and each candidate is constantly trying to get the edge by boosting his/her poll numbers. Unfortunately, we're breeding a generation of politicians that are more programmed and concerned by they want the polls to read the next morning.
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:52 PM   #189
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
Agreed. The democratic strategy currently is to look at George Bush's poor approval rating and claim that the plan is to do the opposite of what he's doing.

There are no fresh ideas. NONE.

- How do you propose we get out of Iraq without seeing the Iraqi government, military, and police force fold to the well-funded (by Iran and Syria) insurgency?

- How do you propose we maintain the historically very low levels of unemployment and inflation AND balance the budget at the same time?

- How do you propose we free ourselves from the dependency on foreign oil? I hear you say "we have to reduce our dependency on foreign oil", but I don't hear any "HOW".

- How do you propose we stop the ascending costs of healthcare and college education?

If you're going to just crap on George Bush and expect to make it into office, well, it just might work because so few like George Bush. But you won't get my vote, because crapping on Bush doesn't make you a leader, it just makes you a critic.
Good post. It's very true. It didn't work as Kerry's campaign strategy and it won't work now either.
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Old 06-05-2007, 02:16 AM   #190
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha View Post
First, to say that the "torture" techniques employed at Gitmo are the "most vicious permanently impairing system ... in the world" is a major overstatement. Hyperbole works great with some people, but not with me.

Second, to say that Rumself personally participated in the torture on a prisoner is also a little strange. Please see my first point. Speaking the truth and making sound arguments goes a lot further than making things up or exaggerating.
Neither statement is hyperbole. Do the research. Rumsfeild directly participated in the torture of a prisoner at Gitmo.
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Old 06-05-2007, 02:28 AM   #191
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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See that's what he is talking about. All these Dems basically jusy say that. They have no answers other than "not what we are currently doing." That is why so many people look at the Dems as the party of no ideas. Of course just as many people look at the Reps as the party of bad ideas. Which is worse? I don't know. But years of doing nothing about Muslim extremists didn't do the job. It is time the Dems started saying what we should be doing to combat terrorism in general.

When people like John Edwards deny that there is even a war against terrorism it just shows have naive they are.
We should go to war against terrorism, which is a good reason for leaving Iraq, which is engaging in a civil war having zip to do with terrorism. The Iraqis are a decade or two away from getting it together well enough to terrorize anyone but each other. Osama's boys are slipping into Iraq for a little fun, which they wouldn't have the leisure to do if we attacked a country actually harboring terrorists and having an interest in terrorizing us.
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Old 06-05-2007, 02:36 AM   #192
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha View Post
Crazyhorse,
Acccording to the U.S. Supreme Court (which, by the way, consists of people a lot smarter than either of us and who just might know a lot about the law), military tribunals that try unlawful enemy combatants are perfectly legal and not barred by ANY treaty signed by the U.S. Those military tribunals, which you call kangaroo courts, are "competent tribunals" under the GCs who CAN legally determine whether someone is an enemy combatant and can be denied POW status. Moreover, FDR used such military tribunals to try and execute Nazis who ended up on our shores to conduct sabotage operations. So, the use of tribunals is nothing new. Finally, when researching this stuff, please refer to U.S. case-law (including that which interprets international law).

PS - I'm still wondering where you found out that Rumsfeld personally tortured a detainee.
I'll find a link for the Runsfeld party at Gitmo. By the way, the world court or courts of other countries care less about Supreme Court rulings. The SC is a Bush court anyway. Germany recently decided not to prosecute Bush for war crimes in relation to behaviour toward prisoners at Gitmo, among other things, not because of Supreme Court rulings, but because of difficulties presented by America's fire power.
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Old 06-05-2007, 02:41 AM   #193
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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Originally Posted by Crazyhorse1 View Post
Neither statement is hyperbole. Do the research. Rumsfeild directly participated in the torture of a prisoner at Gitmo.
He was the guy in charge of the entire defense department. Whether he personally tortured a prisoner or not is inconsequential. The only thing that you and I should be concerned about is the fact that he approved of torture.
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Old 06-05-2007, 02:46 AM   #194
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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I'll find a link for the Runsfeld party at Gitmo. By the way, the world court or courts of other countries care less about Supreme Court rulings. The SC is a Bush court anyway. Germany recently decided not to prosecute Bush for war crimes in relation to behaviour toward prisoners at Gitmo, among other things, not because of Supreme Court rulings, but because of difficulties presented by America's fire power.
I think you're confusing Bush with Rumsfeld (the court decided not to prosecute Rumsfeld).
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Old 06-05-2007, 03:34 AM   #195
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Re: Let's impeach the president.

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Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha View Post
First, to say that the "torture" techniques employed at Gitmo are the "most vicious permanently impairing system ... in the world" is a major overstatement. Hyperbole works great with some people, but not with me.

Second, to say that Rumself personally participated in the torture on a prisoner is also a little strange. Please see my first point. Speaking the truth and making sound arguments goes a lot further than making things up or exaggerating.
Here's a link giving a little history of the system of torture used at Gitmo and its severity. Compellng reading.

Here's a link on Rumsfeld's personal involvement in the torture of a prisoner.

Here's also an article on the Bush Administration's attitude and policy toward the Geneva Conventions.

Lastly, here's an article on even the Supreme Court rejecting Bush's claim the our Military commissions could try prisoners under the authority of the Geneva Conventions.

If the above seems not definitive to you, there are plenty of articles on the net dealing with the topics we've been discussing.

I recommend Seymore Hersh's book on Abu Graib for a much more detailed account of some of the above.

Torture American Style by James McWilliams - The Texas Observer

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20...urce=whitelist

U.S.: Bush Errs in Geneva Convention Rules (Human Rights Watch, 7-2-2002)

U.S. Shifts Policy on Geneva Conventions

Last edited by Crazyhorse1; 06-05-2007 at 04:05 AM. Reason: to add links
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