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Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?

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Old 07-26-2007, 10:38 AM   #61
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Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?

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Because you have been there right? I mean you not just giving an opinion upon which you have absolutely no idea what the hell you are talking about right? It is fine to be against the war. I understand that argument very well. But don't make an argument that it isn't going well when you are simply basing that upon not liking the war. You haven't the first clue whether 9 of 16 areas are going well or not based on any type of real evidence do you?
Uh-huh. So you must have been in Iraq to be so sure that I'm wrong and things are going well in the remaining 7 areas of progress, right?

If things are going so great, why can't we leave?
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Old 07-26-2007, 10:43 AM   #62
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Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?

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I kinda like Bob Feller's idea:


Personally, I think Biden and Thompson have the right idea diplomatically, with a little Edwards thrown in. No reason to leave any permanent bases in Iraq when we have them within striking distance elsewhere.
The more I hear what Biden has to say overall, the more I like him. Too bad he's got no shot really. His chance passed 20 years ago I suppose after those plagiarism charges. Maybe he's got a chance to be a VP.
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Old 07-26-2007, 11:55 AM   #63
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Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?

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Uh-huh. So you must have been in Iraq to be so sure that I'm wrong and things are going well in the remaining 7 areas of progress, right?

If things are going so great, why can't we leave?
The difference is that I have a report that tells me that 7 of 16 are going well. You simply have your skepticism to disbelieve that. Skepticism is usually very affected by emotion. I am simply pointing out that you say you "find it hard to believe" yet you gave no resaon why and I suspect it is because you don't really have any concrete reasons.

And where did I say it was going great? Good old fashioned misdirection with that comment if you ask me. Don't have a good argument, then just project an opinion into someone else's argument to weaken it I guess.
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Old 07-26-2007, 11:58 AM   #64
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Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?

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Does it bother you that Patraeus has very little experience in combat?
No. Some of our nation's best military leaders were ones who never saw combat (e.g., Gen. George Marshall - the guy who pretty much won WWII). I know that Iraq war opponents jump to the immediate conclusion that everything ever affiliated with Bush is pure-evil, corrupt, etc., but I have never heard anyone criticize Petraeus.

In that regard, it would be nice to see Iraq war opponents or Iraq war supporters not be so one-sided. I know the war is a polarizing issue, but that doesn't make it a black and white issue. Not everything is "bad" or "good", there is some room for "I don't knows" or "undecideds."

That leads me to my final point. I was less than thrilled when the repubs were trying to use 9/11 and terror threats to their political ends in 2004. They repeatedly tried to remind people that we were at war and that AQ was looking to kill Americans. It was simply disgusting. Equally disgusting, however, is how the Dems are doing everything in their power to paint as bleak a picture as possible of the war in Iraq. Obviously, they know that Bush's legacy, the public's happiness with repubs (via their connection with Bush), and the fate of the 2008 election lies in Iraq. Accordingly, they paint as bleak of a picture as possible of what is going on in Iraq. I know they rightly criticized Bush for using war as a political tool, but they are doing the same thing but no one (yet) has recognized that they are hypocrites. Both parties use American blood as a political tool.
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Old 07-26-2007, 12:05 PM   #65
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Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?

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No. Some of our nation's best military leaders were ones who never saw combat (e.g., Gen. George Marshall - the guy who pretty much won WWII). I know you, as an Iraq war opponent, jump to the immediate conclusion that everything ever affiliated with Bush is pure-evil, corrupt, etc., but other than you, I have never heard anyone criticize him.

In that regard, it would be nice to see Iraq war opponents or Iraq war supporters not be so one-sided. I know the war is a polarizing issue, but that doesn't make it a black and white issue. Not everything is "bad" or "good", there is some room for "I don't knows" or "undecideds."
SGG I agree. I would hope that none of our Generals have combat experience. That would be best since it means we haven't been at war.
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Old 07-26-2007, 12:07 PM   #66
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Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?

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Both parties use American blood as a political tool.
They use everything as a political tool and that is a huge reason our system is totally broke.
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Old 07-26-2007, 03:15 PM   #67
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Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?

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Our system is not totaly broke its still the best in the world even with the problems we do have.
I believe stringly the our system is broke. Whether it is better than anyone else's is irrelevant to me. Our two party system is not representitive of our populus and that is the idea that our government is supposed to be built on. Therefore to me it is broken.
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Old 07-26-2007, 03:39 PM   #68
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Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?

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Our two party system is not representitive of our populus and that is the idea that our government is supposed to be built on. Therefore to me it is broken.
How is it not?
Or are you suggesting that we make a third party called "those that don't give a shit" party?
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Old 07-26-2007, 03:40 PM   #69
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Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?

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I always find it funny how the left bash Fox, Rush and the other news sources but they defend CNN, ABC, CBS, and the other news which lean sto the left. The one thing about Rush and the other talk shows is that they tell you up front that they lean to the right. The other news sources hide behind the "I'm a reporter and just report the news" then add their left leaning stance on the subject. I myself listen to all kinds of news form Fox, NPR, national news and many other sources. The left on the other hand calls Rush, Hanaty, and other right leaning names as they cannot stand them but then they preach free speech.
I would normally have a lot to say about this, but almost all of it would be Dem bashing, and I'm trying to cut down on that!
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Old 07-26-2007, 06:51 PM   #70
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Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?

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The more I hear what Biden has to say overall, the more I like him.
That's because his speech was stolen from a Captain and Tenille song.
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Old 07-27-2007, 04:50 PM   #71
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Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?

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The difference is that I have a report that tells me that 7 of 16 are going well. You simply have your skepticism to disbelieve that. Skepticism is usually very affected by emotion. I am simply pointing out that you say you "find it hard to believe" yet you gave no resaon why and I suspect it is because you don't really have any concrete reasons.

And where did I say it was going great? Good old fashioned misdirection with that comment if you ask me. Don't have a good argument, then just project an opinion into someone else's argument to weaken it I guess.

Look, I have no problems saying that I was against this war from the start. So yes, my outlook on what the Bush administration tells me is "progress" is a bit jaundiced. Especially when you consider that the "progress" they speak of comes with the price of blood spilled by American troops who never should have been responsible for Iraq's "progress" to begin with.

This never should have been our fight. Iraq posed NO threat to us whatsoever. Overthrowing Saddam upset the balance of power in the middle east. And instead of the misguided hope of making Iran and Syria shake in their boots at the strength and might of American military superiority in that region, they are licking their chops at the prospects of a weakened Iraq and all of their oil reserves.

No matter how they define "progress" -- it was still a dreadful foreign policy decision, it destroyed our credibility in the world, it has emboldened al Queda, increased their recruitment levels, spread our defenses way too thin, and cost the lives of over 3000 Americans and wounded nearly 30,000 more.

So, I stand by my statement. No matter the outcome, the "progress" has come at too high a price.
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Old 07-28-2007, 10:41 AM   #72
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Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?

Beems,

I too was against the war starting, but that has nothing to do with what we need to do from here. I know you will probably reply with "well they were so wrong about the war, why should I trust them now?" To that I would reply (a) Petraeus is not "they" and (b) I don't quite follow the logic "They were wrong then, so they must always be wrong."
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Old 07-28-2007, 12:21 PM   #73
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Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?

i was going to start a new thread from an idea that beems gave me, but i might as well put it here. how would people around here feel if John Kerry, or Al Gore, had lead us into Iraq? somehow, i think the feelings would be alittle different
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Old 07-28-2007, 12:39 PM   #74
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Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?

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i was going to start a new thread from an idea that beems gave me, but i might as well put it here. how would people around here feel if John Kerry, or Al Gore, had lead us into Iraq? somehow, i think the feelings would be alittle different
You're so right. The sentiment would have been Liberals are trying to prove they're warhawks by invading Iraq, when they're not. George Bush would have done things differently if he were in office.

But you know, hindsight is always 20/20.
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Old 07-28-2007, 01:07 PM   #75
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Re: Iraq: Who Has the Right Plan?

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i was going to start a new thread from an idea that beems gave me, but i might as well put it here. how would people around here feel if John Kerry, or Al Gore, had lead us into Iraq? somehow, i think the feelings would be alittle different
Republicans have always supported Democratic Presidents in times of war. Even when Clinton went into Bosnia, his strongest supporters were the hated neo-cons. Wilson, FDR, and Truman also had the support of Republicans in fighting their wars. The opposition of the Democrats to a President during wartime has been more common. They oppossed Lincoln in fighting slavery. They oppossed Johnson and Nixon in figting communism in Southeast Asia, and they have oppossed Bush in trying to bring Democracy to Iraq. So, yes things would have been much different.
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