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Old 10-22-2007, 04:54 PM   #31
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Re: Canadian Healthcare from a Canadian...

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Originally Posted by firstdown View Post
Why then stop with health ins. How about food, water, jobs, etc.. Why is health ins a right?
I suppose you can also ask the same question about every service the government provides. If the government is suppose look out for the well being of its citizens then how can one include national defense and exclude national health care?
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Old 10-22-2007, 05:34 PM   #32
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Re: Canadian Healthcare from a Canadian...

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That doesn't answer the fundamental question. Why is healthcare a right?

I've never heard someone come up with a logical answer. The only response is emotional in nature; something along the lines of because in this day in age, we just should. It's just wrong not to.

If that's the way people feel, let me ask you this: is it fair for us Americans to provide universal healthcare, in which some of you may be the recipient of hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of chemotherapy or surgical care, while people in Africa are starving to death? Isn't food a more immediate need than healthcare? Without food, you die in weeks. Why are we more deserving of healthcare than they're deserving of food? Because we're Americans??

No. None of it is a right. It's all a privelege. It's a privelege to live in the United States of America, where you have ample opportunity to earn enough money to put a roof over your head, give you clean drinking water, pay for your food, and pay for your healthcare. Do it your damn self, and stop whining about having it tough.

Again, it would be nice if it were always that easy.
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Old 10-22-2007, 07:30 PM   #33
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Re: Canadian Healthcare from a Canadian...

Right is just a word...it doesn't mean anything. In this day and age where people are murdered everyday over seemingly nothing it's hard to say that anything is truly a right.

Rather, it's about collectively creating the best society that we can. I don't see how a world in which some of us lack adequate access to care is superior than the alternative.
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Old 10-22-2007, 09:14 PM   #34
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Re: Canadian Healthcare from a Canadian...

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Everybody has the right not to be killed. But living healthy is a privelege, not a right. I don't see that shit in the Constitution. Nobody has the right to live a healthy life, that's the part that YOU have to make happen.

And that includes making sure you graduate from high school and get a job that has a modicum of health insurance benefits.
The sky is falling! I actually agree with something Schneed said!
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Old 10-22-2007, 09:27 PM   #35
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Re: Canadian Healthcare from a Canadian...

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Perhaps it's just the hippy in me but I just think it's sad in this day and age where we could easily support those that are less fortunate with basic healthcare that we turn our backs on them and have this attitude of "You don't deserve it because you didn't earn it".
Perhaps it's the yuppie in me, but I feel it's sad that a person (myself) that came from a very poor background should have to pay for others to have special privilages without working hard to earn them. I work hard to be where I am in life, and I am the ONLY person on either side of my family with a Master's degree. They all told me not to bother, but I didn't listen. So why I am I punished having to pay for other people's benefits? No one in the world can convince me that someone is a product of their upbringing. It can be done to get away from bad influences. I am living proof.
So what's next? Food? Electricity? A car? Gas? Lottery tickets (cause they all deserve the right to be lucky too right?). Because I worked hard to make more money than 75% of the country, I should be forced to help those (for the most part) that don't want to help themselves? Don't be fooled, the majority of people that can't or don't afford healthcare are in their scenario because of their own actions.
Even a burger flipper at McDonalds is offered health insurance. You say it's turning your back on them...they already have their hand out and in effect turned their backs on us when they decided not to make themselves a valuable member of society.
WHy is it we insist on not holding others accountable for their lives?
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Old 10-22-2007, 11:14 PM   #36
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Re: Canadian Healthcare from a Canadian...

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Again, it would be nice if it were always that easy.
But who said it was supposed to be easy?

Work and deserve it, earn it to own it.

Dude, come on, how hard is it to get a job answering phones for a living at some big company's call center? You'd get access to PPOs, HMOs, or HSAs.

40 million in the US don't have health insurance. A big chunk of them are the high school dropouts that live below the poverty line. Another chunk own their own business, but don't manage their cash flow well enough to pay for health insurance, and consequently live above their means. And yet another chunk are just flat out irresponsible with their money, and ring up scads of credit card debt and turn around and insist they can't hack the cost of health insurance.

I like the guys who work in manufacturing or something, making a real modest salary, and are smart enough about their money to pony up for the healthcare coverage, even though it crunches their wallets. They'd probably love a national healthcare system, and you know what, I'd love it if they had one. Because they deserve it. Unfortunately, most of the 40 million with out it, they don't deserve it.
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Old 10-23-2007, 06:38 AM   #37
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Re: Canadian Healthcare from a Canadian...

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But who said it was supposed to be easy?

Work and deserve it, earn it to own it.

Dude, come on, how hard is it to get a job answering phones for a living at some big company's call center? You'd get access to PPOs, HMOs, or HSAs.

40 million in the US don't have health insurance. A big chunk of them are the high school dropouts that live below the poverty line. Another chunk own their own business, but don't manage their cash flow well enough to pay for health insurance, and consequently live above their means. And yet another chunk are just flat out irresponsible with their money, and ring up scads of credit card debt and turn around and insist they can't hack the cost of health insurance.

I like the guys who work in manufacturing or something, making a real modest salary, and are smart enough about their money to pony up for the healthcare coverage, even though it crunches their wallets. They'd probably love a national healthcare system, and you know what, I'd love it if they had one. Because they deserve it. Unfortunately, most of the 40 million with out it, they don't deserve it.
i am one of those guys you are referring to, and yes i would love it. the other part i have high lighted, its really not that hard at all to get the job. the hard part is trying to juggle kids around a work schedule. the united states went from family owned business', that knew all about the employees and their families. to big corporate entities, mostly owned and operated by multi millionaires. who don't give a rats ass about me or my family. in the grand scheme of things, when an insurance company can dictate to anyone in the medical field what the costs should be, something is seriously wrong with that system
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Old 10-23-2007, 07:24 AM   #38
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Re: Canadian Healthcare from a Canadian...

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i am one of those guys you are referring to, and yes i would love it. the other part i have high lighted, its really not that hard at all to get the job. the hard part is trying to juggle kids around a work schedule. the united states went from family owned business', that knew all about the employees and their families. to big corporate entities, mostly owned and operated by multi millionaires. who don't give a rats ass about me or my family. in the grand scheme of things, when an insurance company can dictate to anyone in the medical field what the costs should be, something is seriously wrong with that system
I know managed care organizations get a bad rap, and the story you'll hear in the news about how they just about kill someone because of their policies definitely is scary. But I'm here to tell you, from a hospital's standpoint (in case you didn't know I work in the finance office at a health system), that if the HMOs weren't trying to dictate cost management to us, none of our administrators would put pressure on the physicians and nursing staff to get the patient out of the hospital. Patients would sit and sit and sit in hospital beds, costing insurance companies even more money, which would just end up getting passed onto you and everyone else in the form of even higher premiums. Not to mention more beds would be taken up, and in some parts of the country (like Philadelphia) hospitals are already at capacity. Then we'd have people needing a bed in a hospital with no beds available.

The healthcare issue is real easy for people to just say "we need a change." But nobody can come up with a good solution. The reason for that is the problems are ridiculously complicated. It's not nearly as easy as saying "we need a change" or "our system is broken."
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Old 10-23-2007, 09:01 AM   #39
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Re: Canadian Healthcare from a Canadian...

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Originally Posted by jsarno View Post
Perhaps it's the yuppie in me, but I feel it's sad that a person (myself) that came from a very poor background should have to pay for others to have special privilages without working hard to earn them. I work hard to be where I am in life, and I am the ONLY person on either side of my family with a Master's degree. They all told me not to bother, but I didn't listen. So why I am I punished having to pay for other people's benefits? No one in the world can convince me that someone is a product of their upbringing. It can be done to get away from bad influences. I am living proof.
So what's next? Food? Electricity? A car? Gas? Lottery tickets (cause they all deserve the right to be lucky too right?). Because I worked hard to make more money than 75% of the country, I should be forced to help those (for the most part) that don't want to help themselves? Don't be fooled, the majority of people that can't or don't afford healthcare are in their scenario because of their own actions.
Even a burger flipper at McDonalds is offered health insurance. You say it's turning your back on them...they already have their hand out and in effect turned their backs on us when they decided not to make themselves a valuable member of society.
WHy is it we insist on not holding others accountable for their lives?
You love the slippery slope argument huh? One thing doesn't always have to lead to another.

I'm not saying we should support every bum and slacker out there. I just think we could be providing a bit more when it comes to social services and healthcare. Not every person out there in need is a deadbeat looking to suck off the system.

As for people at McDonald's having healthcare, I'd be willing to be the coverage is pretty shitty and not cheap.

I'm kinda surprised that someone coming from a poor background would have such a selfish outlook. No, you shouldn't be forced to help the less fortunate. But it's sad that it seems you don't want to help, and instead look down on such people.
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Old 10-23-2007, 09:06 AM   #40
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Re: Canadian Healthcare from a Canadian...

first - have medical people making medical decisions. no carriers involved at all
second- medical people have to be accountable. period. if you operate on my right leg, when the problem is in my left leg, you screwed up.
third- capping medical malpractice insurance, and no dropping doctors if they are sued.
fourth- if i get my gall bladder out, it costs the same no matter where i go. procedures have to be standardized, so the work load balances out. in theory favoring one hospital over another, strictly by cost, would disappear
this isnt the entire answer, but at least its a starting point
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Old 10-23-2007, 09:11 AM   #41
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Re: Canadian Healthcare from a Canadian...

I'm with Matty here. for every deadbeat out there looking for a handout, there are plenty of people that actually need the help. i don't mind helping. i come from the other side, and know what its like not to have. and its really what us Americans do best, we help when someone is down. i can more then guarantee you that once the dust settles in Iraq, the united states will be there to help rebuild. lets start at home, first
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Old 10-23-2007, 10:20 PM   #42
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Re: Canadian Healthcare from a Canadian...

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Now no system is perfect. It is important to take the good from many systems and make it an american system. I am fine with allowing people to choose private healthcare with some sort of tax break.

The problem is, health care is something that a government should supply to its people. As hard it is to achieve, in my mind it is as simple as that. We don't worry about paying the fire department and the police. This is part of our safety and it should be covered.

Taxes may be higher but this is a basic service that a government should be providing. It seems all major industrialized countries, except for america, have been able to understand that
I agree completely. IMO, government's top priorities should be education and health care.

I also think that we pay enough taxes to cover these expenses, but the government misuses that money. Most changes in government behavior is a chance to increase taxes, and I believe the government will always exploit those opportunities. They'll never give money back once they've got their hands on it, and they are always looking for more (IMO).
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Old 10-23-2007, 11:11 PM   #43
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Re: Canadian Healthcare from a Canadian...

Funny how our country was founded on limited government and strong states rights. The Federal government was formed in such a way as to govern interactions amongst states and to provide national defense. We don't look at the Federal government like that anymore I guess.
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Old 10-23-2007, 11:29 PM   #44
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Re: Canadian Healthcare from a Canadian...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/23/op...ml?ref=opinion

There are a million of these stories, but this is an article about two people who are struggling right now that I thought was affecting. If anyone here has the gall to criticize this family's work ethic then you can really go to hell as far as I am concerned.
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Old 10-23-2007, 11:34 PM   #45
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Re: Canadian Healthcare from a Canadian...

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http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/23/op...ml?ref=opinion

There are a million of these stories, but this is an article about two people who are struggling right now that I thought was affecting. If anyone here has the gall to criticize this family's work ethic then you can really go to hell as far as I am concerned.
Sad story on many levels.
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