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Old 04-14-2008, 11:25 PM   #31
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Re: BitterGate

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Originally Posted by SmootSmack View Post
Well excuse me then, I thought it referred specifically to covert action. Not sure what the "sigh" was for there

What's the term for inaction that has negative consequences? That's more of a rhetorical question. I don't honestly care what the answer is. This thread had me pretty bitter from the start.
For dramatic effect?
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Old 04-14-2008, 11:51 PM   #32
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Re: BitterGate

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Originally Posted by dmek25 View Post
we can respectfully agree to disagree. getting out of Iraq, and taking care of Americans here at home, should be every candidates main focus. and for me, john McCain is a warmonger, that scares the shit out of me. you know the old saying, once a fighter, always a fighter. he would love nothing more then to make his mark by using whatever force necessary around the world. after 5+ years in Iraq( that's not working) its time to give politics a chance
5 1/2 years?

This is what our country has come to. A spineless society who seem to not understand what it means to be at war. Don't get me wrong, I have SERIOUS misgivings with the war but not a single one of them has to do with time. If the right path in the Iraq would take 50 years then I would supoort it wholep-heartedly. War sucks and costs lives but if it is the right thing to do then it should be done right. Saying it has been 5 1/2 years and not everyone there is sitting around a camp fire singing Kumbaya so it is time to give up and do something else is SOOOOO misguided. If you are against the war for other reasons I can understand but don't feed me a line that basically says "Hey, we're a bunch of big pussies who don't have the guts to hang in there when things get tough" That is exactly what I hear when someone says something about how long this war has taken so politics must be a better answer. And I'd bet that's what our enemy would hear too.
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Old 04-15-2008, 12:11 AM   #33
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Re: BitterGate

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5 1/2 years?

This is what our country has come to. A spineless society who seem to not understand what it means to be at war. Don't get me wrong, I have SERIOUS misgivings with the war but not a single one of them has to do with time. If the right path in the Iraq would take 50 years then I would supoort it wholep-heartedly. War sucks and costs lives but if it is the right thing to do then it should be done right. Saying it has been 5 1/2 years and not everyone there is sitting around a camp fire singing Kumbaya so it is time to give up and do something else is SOOOOO misguided. If you are against the war for other reasons I can understand but don't feed me a line that basically says "Hey, we're a bunch of big pussies who don't have the guts to hang in there when things get tough" That is exactly what I hear when someone says something about how long this war has taken so politics must be a better answer. And I'd bet that's what our enemy would hear too.
A 29 year old enthusiastic young chap like you is just what they are looking for to serve. I encourage you to join and fight for what you believe in. I promise to send you care packages every month.
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Old 04-15-2008, 12:26 AM   #34
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Re: BitterGate

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A 29 year old enthusiastic young chap like you is just what they are looking for to serve. I encourage you to join and fight for what you believe in. I promise to send you care packages every month.
Where did I say I believe in the war? I said we need to stop being pansies asses about this. Either we should be doing this or we shouldn't. I didn't take a serious stand on that. But I did take a stand on basing our decision in any way on how difficult or how long it has taken. It is wrong to do so. I firmly believe that.
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Old 04-15-2008, 12:43 AM   #35
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Re: BitterGate

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Where did I say I believe in the war? I said we need to stop being pansies asses about this. Either we should be doing this or we shouldn't. I didn't take a serious stand on that. But I did take a stand on basing our decision in any way on how difficult or how long it has taken. It is wrong to do so. I firmly believe that.
I agree with you to a point FRPLG. We are a spineless society, in that we have fought a war with the children of the poor and paid for it with money borrowed from China. Had we been asked to make any sacrifices at any point I have a feeling the American people would have rejected this war. Not for any principled reason, but just because they don't like sacrifices. Now with an economy spiraling into recession, a depleted army, and a 3 billion dollar per day bill we can no longer afford to float, lets see how many people will be willing to actually make sacrifices to pay for this war effort. I'm guessing not many.
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Old 04-15-2008, 01:01 AM   #36
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Re: BitterGate

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Where did I say I believe in the war? I said we need to stop being pansies asses about this. Either we should be doing this or we shouldn't. I didn't take a serious stand on that. But I did take a stand on basing our decision in any way on how difficult or how long it has taken. It is wrong to do so. I firmly believe that.
The fact that you think how long the war is waged is irrelevant shocks me. You may not believe in the war but you lack vision and empathy. Vision required to see that there can't be a happy ending to the war no matter when it actually ends. Empathy required to identify with the soldiers who are serving multiple tours of duty, 15 month deployments and face stop loss.

I am spineless.
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Old 04-15-2008, 02:28 AM   #37
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Re: BitterGate

I had thought the condescending "sigh" was discredited at the first Bush/Gore debate, Why it persists on the internet as a riposte eludes me.

The reason this statement is so damaging to Obama is that it exposes him as the candidate of the extreme left Move On/George Soros crowd that the MSM wants to pretend that he isn't. The only successful Democrat of the last 40 yars ran as a centrist, yet once again they are on the verge of nominating the most extreme candidate available. They can't help themselves.

His statement re-iterates a notion first articulated by Marx (Karl not Chico) which has been described as "false consciousness". The idea was recently re-packaged as a book callled "What's the matter with Kansas?" It's an intellectual device that Leftists use to explain why the working class doesn't support them. The proletariat is in denial, you see, owing to the dilema of their material circumstance. I suspect Obama was exposed to this idea by the more recent book (or a synapsis of it in some left wing journal) rather than by Marx himself. The only people that actually read Marx anymore are hopeless reactionaries such as myself.

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Old 04-15-2008, 06:46 AM   #38
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Re: BitterGate

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Originally Posted by FRPLG View Post
5 1/2 years?

This is what our country has come to. A spineless society who seem to not understand what it means to be at war. Don't get me wrong, I have SERIOUS misgivings with the war but not a single one of them has to do with time. If the right path in the Iraq would take 50 years then I would supoort it wholep-heartedly. War sucks and costs lives but if it is the right thing to do then it should be done right. Saying it has been 5 1/2 years and not everyone there is sitting around a camp fire singing Kumbaya so it is time to give up and do something else is SOOOOO misguided. If you are against the war for other reasons I can understand but don't feed me a line that basically says "Hey, we're a bunch of big pussies who don't have the guts to hang in there when things get tough" That is exactly what I hear when someone says something about how long this war has taken so politics must be a better answer. And I'd bet that's what our enemy would hear too.
this is my point. these bunch of idiots we have running this country have no real vision, or plan, on how to succeed in this so called war. in reality, war is ugly. war costs thousands of people their lives. but war is also knowing who the enemy is, and what the objectives are. it would be different if the Iraqi people wanted this United States invasion. i really don't think they did. these people have been killing each other for thousands of years. what makes us think we can impose our will of democracy upon them? and if that would be the case, who is next? China, Iran, North Korea? the list goes on and on. i really do believe this administration had the United States best interests in heart when this started. but this has been so mismanaged, its turned into a disaster. im not willing to sacrifice any more American lives on the CHANCE that the Iraqi people MIGHT embrace their freedoms. are you?
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Old 04-15-2008, 06:55 AM   #39
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Re: BitterGate

I believe that the correct sentiment is that they wanted us there and now they want us gone. How quickly desires change once the job is done. In other words we have accomplished what they wanted us to. Sadam is dead and his regime is over. Only their own civil war can repair the unity and forge their own nation. We are nothing less than arrogant than to believe that we can do it for them.
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Old 04-15-2008, 11:48 AM   #40
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Re: BitterGate

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I had thought the condescending "sigh" was discredited at the first Bush/Gore debate, Why it persists on the internet as a riposte eludes me.
It's a sigh of frustration not condescension. Regardless, the point still stands.
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Old 04-15-2008, 11:54 AM   #41
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Re: BitterGate

saden, are you upset that there is a war going on or that the war is happening in Iraq? Because I know a lot of people say "bring our troops home" and then many of those same people say "why aren't we dedicating 100% of our resources to fighting in Afghanistan/Pakistan where the real enemy is." So do they want to bring the troops home, or just move them somewhere else?
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Old 04-15-2008, 03:09 PM   #42
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Re: BitterGate

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I believe that the correct sentiment is that they wanted us there and now they want us gone. How quickly desires change once the job is done. In other words we have accomplished what they wanted us to. Sadam is dead and his regime is over. Only their own civil war can repair the unity and forge their own nation. We are nothing less than arrogant than to believe that we can do it for them.
great post. and i agree witrh most of it
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Old 04-15-2008, 04:06 PM   #43
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Re: BitterGate

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saden, are you upset that there is a war going on or that the war is happening in Iraq? Because I know a lot of people say "bring our troops home" and then many of those same people say "why aren't we dedicating 100% of our resources to fighting in Afghanistan/Pakistan where the real enemy is." So do they want to bring the troops home, or just move them somewhere else?
I am upset about a lot of things, our foreign policy, the fact that we have a large presence in so many places, that our defense budget is enormous and that the defense supplemental bill is disgustingly huge, that we are in Iraq even though we can't "fix" it, that we are not in a position to chastise China for their disregard for human right.

I want most of the troops back home (including those in Germany, Japan, Korea, etc) and for us to go after terrorist wherever they might be (Afghanistan) intelligently. I want the draft back so chickenhawks get called up to serve.
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Old 04-15-2008, 04:13 PM   #44
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Re: BitterGate

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
I am upset about a lot of things, our foreign policy, the fact that we have a large presence in so many places, that our defense budget is enormous and that the defense supplemental bill is disgustingly huge, that we are in Iraq even though we can't "fix" it, that we are not in a position to chastise China for their disregard for human right.

I want most of the troops back home (including those in Germany, Japan, Korea, etc) and for us to go after terrorist wherever they might be (Afghanistan) intelligently. I want the draft back so chickenhawks get called up to serve.
yeah, yeah, yeah...but are you bitter?
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Old 04-15-2008, 04:20 PM   #45
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Re: BitterGate

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yeah, yeah, yeah...but are you bitter?
Without question...my tax money is being wasted without my consent!
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