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Should Hillary Hang It Up?

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Old 05-15-2008, 08:48 AM   #76
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Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?

I don't know whether racism played a big part in the WV race. Yes, I have seen polls indicating that many WV residents would never vote for an African American. But, WV residents are, on the whole, poor and uneducated ... that's the very same demographic that Hillary has been targeting throughout her campaign.
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Old 05-15-2008, 09:11 AM   #77
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Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?

Before it's all said and done, I think Barack will double back to WVA and re-introduce himself to the good folks of West Virginia. He might --might--carry the state in the General, but if he doesn't I'm still not convinced it's political suicide. Still, some pundits are worried.

An interesting stat the Clintons have been tossing out there since Tuesday's win is that no Democrat has won the White House without winning West Virginia since 1916.

I think it's also worth noting that we've never had an African-American to win the nomination either. And to take it a step further, we've never had an African-American and women vying for the nomination. So I think while those statistics are good indicators and benchmarks, it's also important to note that we are in unchartered territory. We continue to use old rules and "yesterday's" electoral map for a new type of election, with new candidates.
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Old 05-15-2008, 09:54 AM   #78
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Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?

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Originally Posted by 70Chip View Post
I was merely pointing out that Bill Clinton did not declare himself to be America's first black President as a previous poster was claiming. I also don't accept your claim that Bill Clinton is "one of the most popular Presidents in American history". He was elected with 43% of the vote in 1992 and 49% of the vote in 1996. Johnson, Nixon, and Reagan were all re-elected to office with nearly 60% of the vote. Clinton had high approval numbers but most Americans were extremely wary of him for obvious reasons. They should be obvious to everyone now at any rate. Bill Clinton avoided forced resignation by the skin of his teeth. If it weren't for the blindly enthusiastic support he got from the various Democratic interest groups-if any one of them had abandoned him-he would have been toast. This is why blacks feel so betrayed by him now. They had his back at the crucial hour.

If Obama and his supporters endeavor to make a habit of charging racism whenever he has difficulty, then the American people in their great wisdom will soundly reject him. He lost in West Virginia because those people take a highly pragmatic view of things. They know the Clintons and what they stand for. Obama is still largely an unknown quantity. He's never really done anything. That's the reality he has to confront. It's easier to chalk it up to racism and I think for many Liberals it actually feels good to do it, but ultimately it is not helpful. Obama would be smart to come right and say he doesn't believe it was racism. He should say that the people of West Virginia are good people, etc. etc. That's the road to victory for him. Not the quagmire of race. He needs to be post-racial. If his Liberal supporters are determined to indulge in that sort of thing, he's sunk. He needs to convince the American people that he believes in his heart that they are not racist. That will get him the votes he needs to win.
Couple of things Chip: one, I lived in West Virginia for five years and I have never experienced racism like that in my life. That doesn't mean everyone there is racist, or even most people, but it exists far more than you are allowing, as both polls and anecdotal evidence suggest. You can continue to blame "liberals" for manufacturing this issue or you can deal with a particularly ugly side of America which is being exposed by this election. I mean, maybe people in West Virginia are just more pragmatic than the rest of the country, or maybe not.

Second, I'm not sure you have paid attention to Obama's response to this issue. He has done exactly what you suggest, refusing to even engage the notion that race might play a factor in his electability, in spite of overwhelming evidence that it is and will continue to. If there is a criticism to be made of Obama it is that his unity message glosses over some important issues, but I don't know how anyone can even hint that him or his campaign are being divisive.

Clinton retired with one of the highest approval ratings in modern presidential history. This broad support is why he wasn't removed from office. If there is an all powerful group of liberal boogeyman special interest groups who control Washington I would like to know where they were during the buildup to the Iraq war or during the global warming debate or the Alito confirmation hearings. Oh that's right, they were being completely ignored.
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Old 05-15-2008, 09:40 PM   #79
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Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?

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I think we all agree that racism, in whatever form, should cease. The question here is whether it is racist to vote for a presidential candidate in part or whole because that candidate is black.

If your answer is yes, why? I assume your response is that any decision which is affected by someone's race is inherently a racist one.
yes.

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If that is the case, does that mean President Nixon was a racist because his administration aggressively pushed affirmative action?
I don't see how that is racist, that is pushing for equality, which back then, was a major issue.

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Or how about people who choose not to date people from a similar ethnic background?
I guess that depends. If it's because they feel a certain race has certain characteristics and assume all are the same, then yes, that is racist. Kinda like saying "I don't like people that are good at Math, therefore I don't like Chinese people". That's racist.

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Does that mean that people who won't adopt kids from outside their race are racist?
That's a good question. I guess it depends on why they are actually making that decision.

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I think it's sometimes difficult to discern what is really racist.
I just think it's more about the mindset / intent.
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Old 05-16-2008, 12:46 PM   #80
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Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?

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Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha View Post
I don't know whether racism played a big part in the WV race. Yes, I have seen polls indicating that many WV residents would never vote for an African American. But, WV residents are, on the whole, poor and uneducated ... that's the very same demographic that Hillary has been targeting throughout her campaign.

One the whole...

... Lot's of groups are this and that but if you say it you often get into trouble. Also, Preparation H does feel good...

..on the whole.
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Old 05-16-2008, 12:57 PM   #81
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Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?

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One the whole...

... Lot's of groups are this and that but if you say it you often get into trouble. Also, Preparation H does feel good...

..on the whole.
I'm not quite sure I follow.
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Old 05-16-2008, 01:03 PM   #82
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Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?

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I'm not quite sure I follow.
It's not important.
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Old 05-19-2008, 12:40 AM   #83
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Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?

Obama draws 75,000 in Oregon. That's insane.

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Old 05-19-2008, 01:26 AM   #84
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Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?

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I said nothing of the people of WV being racist. I am, however, saying that they are as diverse as platypuses and as educated as Neanderthals. And of course you can also take a look at the exit polls and make your own judgment.
way to fight racism with ignorance and hate. i bet you make friends really easily.

that poll you linked to did show 20% as stating that race was a factor, but even if you re-aligned that completely, obama still loses by double digits.

yeah, there are racists in west virginia, but calling the entire state inbred and retarded or what have you makes you just as guilty and a hypocrite for calling them out with such generalities while thinking that you're any better.

i mean, if there's a place for the race card, this is it, but that's just simply not the reason he lost here... it's only part of the reason. the poor and uneducated just aren't on obama's bandwagon, and calling anyone that doesn't vote for him names doesn't help.

call the racists racist, but don't call the people that simply don't agree with him (or you) racists.
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Old 05-19-2008, 02:09 AM   #85
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Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?

This may sound far flung but I think the Cosby Show is instructive here. Shelby Steele has pointed out that Cosby basically made an unspoken deal with the American public that he would not challenge them on their racist past and in exchange he woud be accepted as mainstream. He gets success and the whites get to come down off the hook for 30 minutes a week and feel like things are progressing on the race front. Oprah Winfrey, Tiger Woods, Micheal Jordan, Sammy Davis, and many others have entered into a similiar bargain. "Roots" was one of the highest rated television events in history because it embodied this same spirit. As long as he stays within those parameters he's golden. This was why Billl Clinton tried to compare him to Jesse Jackson. Jackson is what Steele calls a "challenger". He never misses a chance to remind whites of their sins. Clinton instinctively understands that this is the game and he was trying to de-Cosby Obama a little bit. It doesn't appear to have been enough to win the war but maybe it was helpful in West Virginia. I say this to point out that the race issue is not as simple as enlightened whites vs. peckerwood racists. There's a lot of subconcious stuff going on. Under the surface resentments on both sides have a great impact on things even though we don't realize it. Bill Clinton, I would suggest, is angry right now with Black America because he feels betrayed by them even though even the most ardent Obama booster would be loathe to acknowledge it. The overt racists, to the extent that they really exist, are not the issue we really face. Nobody thinks of themselves in those terms and nobody wants to be accused of being racist. That's why Obama has to be careful.
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Old 05-19-2008, 02:16 AM   #86
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Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?

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way to fight racism with ignorance and hate. i bet you make friends really easily.

that poll you linked to did show 20% as stating that race was a factor, but even if you re-aligned that completely, obama still loses by double digits.

yeah, there are racists in west virginia, but calling the entire state inbred and retarded or what have you makes you just as guilty and a hypocrite for calling them out with such generalities while thinking that you're any better.

i mean, if there's a place for the race card, this is it, but that's just simply not the reason he lost here... it's only part of the reason. the poor and uneducated just aren't on obama's bandwagon, and calling anyone that doesn't vote for him names doesn't help.

call the racists racist, but don't call the people that simply don't agree with him (or you) racists.
No, I don't make friends easily because I have no use for them. Frankly, I don't have the type of personality that seeks approval from people. There's many reasons for my ailment but it's mosly due to being an elitist liberal that's allergic to stupid people.

What part of "West Virginians are dead last in college education and that only 14.8% have completed college" or the fact that "it's 96% white" doesn't agree with you? Next time try reading my posts and do try to concentrate while reading, you might actually comprehend what I said before you go on a rant that takes my post to another dimension and warps it...don't put any words in my mouth. There's nothing more to what I have said beyond what I wrote.

p.s. If it makes you feel better Alabama and Mississippi are in the same boat in terms of being as educated as Neanderthals.
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Old 05-19-2008, 02:33 AM   #87
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Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
No, I don't make friends easily because I have no use for them. Frankly, I don't have the type of personality that seeks approval from people. There's many reasons for my ailment but it's mosly due to being an elitist liberal that's allergic to stupid people.

What part of "West Virginians are dead last in college education and that only 12.3% have completed college" or the fact that "it's 96% white" doesn't agree with you? Next time try reading my posts and do try to concentrate while reading, you might actually comprehend what I said before you go on a rant...and don't f'ing put any words in my mouth.

p.s. If it makes you feel better Alabama and Mississippi are in the same boat in terms of being as educated as Neanderthals.
William Faulkner was from Mississippi. Ditto Eudora Welty, Shelby Foote, and Walker Percy. Obama is probably going to win this election. There's no reason to tar entire groups of people like this over one electoral setback.
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Old 05-19-2008, 02:46 AM   #88
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Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?

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William Faulkner was from Mississippi. Ditto Eudora Welty, Shelby Foote, and Walker Percy. Obama is probably going to win this election. There's no reason to tar entire groups of people like this over one electoral setback.
Dropping the names of a few exceptional people doesn't change the facts. What exactly I've said bothers you or do you find objectionable? Was it the Neanderthal reference? Saying the state is full of uneducated people is a fair statement, the numbers back it up and I make no apologies for that.

If Obama wins the election that's great, if he loses, life will go on. I'm good to go either way and I have no real vested interest beyond what most Americans have in terms of seeing this country getting it's act together.
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Old 05-19-2008, 05:07 AM   #89
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Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
No, I don't make friends easily because I have no use for them. Frankly, I don't have the type of personality that seeks approval from people. There's many reasons for my ailment but it's mosly due to being an elitist liberal that's allergic to stupid people.

What part of "West Virginians are dead last in college education and that only 14.8% have completed college" or the fact that "it's 96% white" doesn't agree with you? Next time try reading my posts and do try to concentrate while reading, you might actually comprehend what I said before you go on a rant that takes my post to another dimension and warps it...don't put any words in my mouth. There's nothing more to what I have said beyond what I wrote.

p.s. If it makes you feel better Alabama and Mississippi are in the same boat in terms of being as educated as Neanderthals.
and here i thought you were talking about the race question at the bottom of the link. my bad, i just remember the last time i saw you posting on political threads and thought you were going back there again (you know, when you actually did call everyone on the board a racist).

sorry for jumping the gun.
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Old 05-19-2008, 09:30 AM   #90
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Re: Should Hillary Hang It Up?

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and here i thought you were talking about the race question at the bottom of the link. my bad, i just remember the last time i saw you posting on political threads and thought you were going back there again (you know, when you actually did call everyone on the board a racist).

sorry for jumping the gun.
I protest with absolute certainty that I have never done that!
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