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FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed

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Old 07-11-2008, 01:42 PM   #46
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Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed

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Originally Posted by firstdown View Post
You could also say that everything started heading south when they took control two years ago. Just had to add that. LOL
do you really believe this? it started almost 8 years ago, when Bush had control of congress. and carte blanche to do as he pleased. he definitely earned whatever is said about him. and BTW, the Dow dipped below 11,000. in case you haven't noticed
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Old 07-11-2008, 01:44 PM   #47
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Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed

and buster, i think the biggest difference is that today, people just do not trust their elected officials. back then, it seemed like we as a country knew that congress, and the president, always had our best interests in mind. can we really say that now?
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Old 07-11-2008, 02:52 PM   #48
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Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed

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We are becoming very spoiled.

Previous generations were willing to make sacrifices in wartime to succeed. WWII rations so we could fund the operation, women going to work in factories to supply their husbands at war and to raise the families, they felt some personal ties to the war and cared enough to see it all the way to success. In the Civil War, many more sacrifices were made. During the Revolutionary War, EVERYTHING was put at risk for their nation.

Today, we all want to feel unaffected by the fight against our enemies and defense of our freedom. We oppose anything that reminds us we're at war, we focus on the negative and elect people who will even try to undermine our sons, brothers and fathers in harm's way. Before, a lot of these people would rightfully so be found guilty of treason.

Listening in on terrorists and the people communicating with them has NO EFFECT on you if you are not doing it. You are not losing any rights, but if we turn our backs on this fight, you WILL lose rights and maybe your life. Did you enjoy walking around the morning of 09/11 fearing or wondering if your city was next? Did you enjoy losing loved ones on that day (if any of you did)? That day, your freedom was stolen away. Do not selfishly oppose steps needed to make sure we kill the people who want to steal your freedom and life forever...or you'll really know what living under dear and oppression is like.
Our freedom wasn't taken away that day! I remember that day pretty well AND the days after! So well that I remember "OUR FLAG WAS STILL THERE". There was one on top of the rubble in New York and another one draped over the side of the pentagon................Our flag was still there. So was our country! And therefore our freedom was too! Saying anything different is being stupid.
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Old 07-11-2008, 03:02 PM   #49
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Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed

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do you really believe this? it started almost 8 years ago, when Bush had control of congress. and carte blanche to do as he pleased. he definitely earned whatever is said about him. and BTW, the Dow dipped below 11,000. in case you haven't noticed
The Dow was way up just a few years ago, uneployment was way down, gas was still not too high, housing market was booming and it all seemed to start dropping a few years back when the dems won control.
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Old 07-11-2008, 03:06 PM   #50
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Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed

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The Dow was way up just a few years ago, uneployment was way down, gas was still not too high, housing market was booming and it all seemed to start dropping a few years back when the dems won control.
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Old 07-11-2008, 03:08 PM   #51
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Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed

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Our freedom wasn't taken away that day! I remember that day pretty well AND the days after! So well that I remember "OUR FLAG WAS STILL THERE". There was one on top of the rubble in New York and another one draped over the side of the pentagon................Our flag was still there. So was our country! And therefore our freedom was too! Saying anything different is being stupid.
I think he was saying that in terms of freely walking around not having check points and things like that. Just go to a Skins game now days and they are not surching people trying to sneek in a beer or two but looking for bombs. So yes in a way we did loose some of our freedoms.
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:53 PM   #52
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Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed

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The Dow was way up just a few years ago, uneployment was way down, gas was still not too high, housing market was booming and it all seemed to start dropping a few years back when the dems won control.
way up a couple of years ago? maybe right after Clintron left office. this administration will set a record with the number of jobs lost under W's watch
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Old 07-11-2008, 05:35 PM   #53
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Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed

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Originally Posted by Buster View Post
We are becoming very spoiled.

Previous generations were willing to make sacrifices in wartime to succeed. WWII rations so we could fund the operation, women going to work in factories to supply their husbands at war and to raise the families, they felt some personal ties to the war and cared enough to see it all the way to success. In the Civil War, many more sacrifices were made. During the Revolutionary War, EVERYTHING was put at risk for their nation.
Making sacrifices is fine -- as long as it's not freedom that is being sacrificed. Working at factories, and helping the war effort is different from giving up liberties.

You mention the Revolutionary War as an example of sacrifice. Those sacrifices were made to obtain the liberties this country was founded on. Why squander those liberties, simply because of a perceived threat?

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Originally Posted by Buster View Post
Today, we all want to feel unaffected by the fight against our enemies and defense of our freedom. We oppose anything that reminds us we're at war, we focus on the negative and elect people who will even try to undermine our sons, brothers and fathers in harm's way. Before, a lot of these people would rightfully so be found guilty of treason.
Questioning the government (and opposing, when appropriate) is not treason -- it's patriotism.

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Listening in on terrorists and the people communicating with them has NO EFFECT on you if you are not doing it.
Not true. It sets a precedent. To think this law has "no effect" on the average citizen's liberties is naive.

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You are not losing any rights, but if we turn our backs on this fight, you WILL lose rights and maybe your life. Did you enjoy walking around the morning of 09/11 fearing or wondering if your city was next? Did you enjoy losing loved ones on that day (if any of you did)? That day, your freedom was stolen away. Do not selfishly oppose steps needed to make sure we kill the people who want to steal your freedom and life forever...or you'll really know what living under dear and oppression is like.
Fear mongering at its best. Sigh.

I am not scared of terrorists. And, if I was, I certainly wouldn't let that fear dictate which liberties I am assured.
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Old 07-11-2008, 06:07 PM   #54
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Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed

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way up a couple of years ago? maybe right after Clintron left office. this administration will set a record with the number of jobs lost under W's watch
towards the end of the Clinton administration and early in the Bush admininstration the dot-com bubble burst wiping away over $5 trillion dollars of market value of tech companies. Supporters of the Clinton admin often like to mention the increase in the economy on his watch, but conveniently forget what happened at the end of the day.

Not saying Clinton caused the dot-com phenom, but Bush certainly didn't cause this economic downturn either.
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Old 07-11-2008, 06:12 PM   #55
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Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed

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I am not scared of terrorists. And, if I was, I certainly wouldn't let that fear dictate which liberties I am assured.
Thats because America is doing a good job of stopping the terrorists
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Old 07-11-2008, 06:16 PM   #56
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Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed

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Why squander those liberties, simply because of a perceived threat?
Do you believe the threat from fundamental Islamists is perceived and not real? They have openly declared war on the United States and their objective is to have one world under Sharia law. Are they an immediate threat to succeed? No. However the threat they pose is very real.

I do agree with you on protecting our liberties, but allowing the government to actively pursue our enemies through surveillance IMO does not infringe on our liberties, as long as there is ultimate oversight by the legislative and judicial branch, which there is.
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Old 07-11-2008, 06:25 PM   #57
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Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed

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way up a couple of years ago? maybe right after Clintron left office. this administration will set a record with the number of jobs lost under W's watch
It started to drop before Clinton left office. And I don't know where your getting this record job loss crap from.
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Old 07-11-2008, 06:53 PM   #58
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Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed

I actually don't have a problem with expanding governmental surveillance privileges, so long as it is debated, and disclosed to the public. The problem was always that Bush decided to make up new laws as he went along, relying on a radical interpretation of executive power that basically allowed him to do anything he wanted, under the pretense that we are at war (which we certainly aren't, at least not in the constitutional sense).

It was part and parcel of larger disregard for the rule of law.

As for Obama, he's looking like another prevaricator to me.
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Old 07-11-2008, 09:04 PM   #59
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Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed

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Old 07-11-2008, 11:33 PM   #60
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Re: FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed

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This is probably the most unpatriotic post I've read........EVER! We have rights dude! Noone can just kick open our doors and search our home, unless there is a warrant of some kind. Its called rights! I believe Thomas Jefferson went even further and called them "unalienable rights endowed by our creator".

Let me back up. Lets say that..............I get busted for possesion of something illegal. They tell me that they'll give me a deal if I cooperate. So, I say that guy gave it to me. In fact that guy gives this stuff to ALOT of people. You can find him at such and such a place.

Without a "court order" they kick open your door, ransack your house and come up empty.............I was full of crud the WHOLE TIME. I have a hard time believing that wouldn't piss you off! I have a even harder time believing that you wouldn't be screaming about your rights being violated!
are you kidding me? wtf are you talking about. the fact is that the courts rubber stamp those warrant requests. it's a fact, look it up. you last paragraph just proves my point.

i think i know what our problem is now though... facts are unpatriotic.
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