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Old 08-21-2008, 09:30 AM   #61
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Re: russia/ georgia

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Not arguing with other things you've said but you have now ignored the fact that we are OBLIGATED to defend Poland. By treaty. Rice wasn't just making that up. Maybe Poland has no intrinsic value to us but it represents a great deal in terms of keeping a organized and peaceful eastern block. Once Russia takes hold of Poland what happens then? Think they just stop? I'd be pretty worried about their next steps. And then the steps after those. This needs to be nipped pretty quick. We're using rhetoric right now because what else do we have?
You know, just when you think Bush is done. Just when you think he CAN'T screw up anymore. Just when you think there ACTUALLY is light at the end of the tunnel....................The cold war is back. Geez! How in the heck can you screw up so much in so little time? It baffles me! It really does.
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Old 08-21-2008, 09:32 AM   #62
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Re: russia/ georgia

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A) The "value" of Poland is irrelevant. They are a NATO member and we're obligated to defend them.

B) Russia is strong militarily, but not capable of stopping our stealth bombers from reaching deep into their heartland and taking out strategic targets.

C) If we had to defend Poland, I'm pretty certain we'd pull out of Iraq and redirect the troops to Poland.
Do you realize what you're saying? Stealth bombers over Russia? Pull out of Iraq? You got to stop with Tom Clancy reading/playing/watching.
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Old 08-21-2008, 09:32 AM   #63
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Re: russia/ georgia

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You know, just when you think Bush is done. Just when you think he CAN'T screw up anymore. Just when you think there ACTUALLY is light at the end of the tunnel....................The cold war is back. Geez! How in the heck can you screw up so much in so little time? It baffles me! It really does.
You're dismissed, we already have a Dmek.
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Old 08-21-2008, 09:34 AM   #64
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Re: russia/ georgia

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Do you realize what you're saying? Stealth bombers over Russia? Pull out of Iraq? You got to stop with Tom Clancy reading/playing/watching.
Why is anything that I said at all unrealistic given the most unrealistic scenario (provided by you): that Russia would invade Poland?
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Old 08-21-2008, 09:40 AM   #65
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Re: russia/ georgia

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You're dismissed, we already have a Dmek.
That's just sad, isn't it?
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Old 08-21-2008, 09:42 AM   #66
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Re: russia/ georgia

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No, I'm say Russia doesn't give a shit about your treaty with Poland. As they see it, it's a matter of national interest to make sure they are not encircled.
I understand that but I don't get exactly what you think WE should be doing. All I am hearing is "Bush sucks". I guess I am just confused by your message here. How should we be handling this?
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Old 08-21-2008, 09:43 AM   #67
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Re: russia/ georgia

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No, I'm say Russia doesn't give a shit about your treaty with Poland. As they see it, it's a matter of national interest to make sure they are not encircled.
I agree with you Saden. And this is exactly why I think our President should be smart enough to speak English!!! This fucking idiot that we got running things now is known for always making the wrong decisions at the right times!

I mean, if he was smart enough do you actually think he would have invaded a country without a real plan? Or do you think he would have been more accurate AND get this, ON THE SAME PAGE with the Iraqi government about withdrawing American troops? What about catching Bin Laden back in 2001? We did have him cornered there as you might recall. But Bush, in all of his wisdom, decides to let the local people catch him...........those people probably played poker with Bin Laden in his cave from time to time.

And now there is Russia. Whats next Bush? Its your move. Just please don't fuck this thing up!
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Old 08-21-2008, 09:44 AM   #68
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Re: russia/ georgia

Where did I say invade? Never ever have I said invade. I likened this situation to the Cuban Missile Crises from the start. Russia taking out bases in Poland is very realistic scenario, certainly more realistic than us jumping to defend Poland by pulling out of Iraq and bombing Russia with stealth bombers. You're not dealing with some two bit country like Iran here. This is Russia!

Also, they have a draft, we don't. So any action on the part of the US would require the reinstatement of the draft...you're making Dmek point for him BTW.
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Old 08-21-2008, 09:49 AM   #69
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Re: russia/ georgia

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I understand that but I don't get exactly what you think WE should be doing. All I am hearing is "Bush sucks". I guess I am just confused by your message here. How should we be handling this?
Obviously I advocate diplomacy or as some would label appeasement. We should at least be mindful of our delusion of grandeur and don't pretend we have the upper hand or the will and the means to do anything if Russia attacks Poland.
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Old 08-21-2008, 10:12 AM   #70
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Re: russia/ georgia

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Obviously I advocate diplomacy or as some would label appeasement. We should at least be mindful of our delusion of grandeur and don't pretend we have the upper hand or the will and the means to do anything if Russia attacks Poland.
Jimmy Carter advocated diplomacy too. That didn't work out too well.

I don't think we should confront Russia either, let them have Poland...again (Yalta,FDR, Alger Hiss). It's too much of a risk to honor our committment to NATO anyway. Russia's expansion and reclaiming of old Soviet bloc territory isn't our problem. When they work with Chavez to base missles in Venezula, that's no big deal either....it would be Bush's fault anyway because he's such an idiot and has just F'd everything in the world up.

P.S. You are ridiculously underestimating the capabilities of the USAF and overestimating Russia's military. It's one thing to roll into Georgia(the stupid, idiotic, Bush Admin told Georgia not to start this), its entirely another to stop Stealth fighter/bombers from completely destroying your military infrastructure. Putin's no idiot, he'll have his surrogates talk, but he won't cross the "line in the sand" of attacking a NATO country.
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Old 08-21-2008, 10:38 AM   #71
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Re: russia/ georgia

But [Colonel Christopher Langton, Senior Fellow at the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies] said Russia's campaign in Georgia left many questions about its military capability unanswered.

"There is no way they could say from this operation that they are capable of carrying out operations against something as sophisticated as NATO forces," he said. "It wasn't a serious test for them."

Georgia war shows Russian army strong but flawed | U.S. | Reuters
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Old 08-21-2008, 12:29 PM   #72
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Re: russia/ georgia

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But [Colonel Christopher Langton, Senior Fellow at the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies] said Russia's campaign in Georgia left many questions about its military capability unanswered.

"There is no way they could say from this operation that they are capable of carrying out operations against something as sophisticated as NATO forces," he said. "It wasn't a serious test for them."

Georgia war shows Russian army strong but flawed | U.S. | Reuters
Good article.
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Old 08-22-2008, 09:29 AM   #73
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Re: russia/ georgia

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And now there is Russia. Whats next Bush? Its your move. Just please don't fuck this thing up!
Instead of saying "f Bush," articulate what you think Bush did wrong. What exactly did he do that was so wrong with respect to RUSSIA? Sometimes I swear, if Bush said he liked babies, some people would say that babies are as evil as Hitler.

As for this whole crisis between Russia, Poland and the US, it's way overblown. Poland is very important to Russia, but no one should seriously think that Russia is going to start a war with NATO over it.
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Old 08-22-2008, 02:44 PM   #74
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Re: russia/ georgia

Just some food for thought: Six former Warsaw Pact nations are now NATO allies, while the United States has nearly 130,000 troops stationed just south of Russia in two different countries.

How nervous would we be in the United States if the situation were reversed? What would our reaction be with Russian warships stationed in the Gulf of Mexico for as long as they saw fit ? Suppose to our west, there was a multi-nation alliance whose original purpose was to fight us if we made any sort of move, is now re-arming with new installed missle shield batteries?

We'd be freaking out, and with good reason.

Sometimes it's good to put yourself in the other guy's shoes.

Here's a pretty short piece that was written some time ago on why Russia appears to be getting a little ansy.

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Why has Putin's Russia turned hostile? Why is Putin mending fences with China, Iran and Syria? Why is Putin sending Bear bombers to the edge of American airspace? Why has Russia turned against America? For Putin's approval rating is three times that of George Bush. Who restarted the Cold War?

Last edited by Beemnseven; 08-22-2008 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 08-22-2008, 02:47 PM   #75
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Re: russia/ georgia

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Just some food for thought: Six former Warsaw Pact nations are now NATO allies, while the United States has nearly 130,000 troops stationed just south of Russia in two different countries.

How nervous would we be in the United States if the situation were reversed? What would our reaction be with Russian warships stationed in the Gulf of Mexico for as long as they saw fit ? Suppose to our west, there was a multi-nation alliance whose original purpose was to fight us if we made any sort of move, is now re-arming with new installed missle shield batteries?

We'd be freaking out, and with good reason.

Sometimes it's good to put yourself in the other guy's shoes.
excellent points. I mean, no, we're America, We're ALWAYS RIGHT!!!
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