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russia/ georgia

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Old 08-28-2008, 09:10 PM   #106
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Re: russia/ georgia

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Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha View Post
Wow, did you really just call the Civil War the War of Northern Aggression? I have so many issues with that one; the least serious of which is that the South fired the first shot.

Also, are you saying that, if I so please, I should be able to declare my independence from the United States because I am dissatisfied with my government?
Absolutely. To both questions.

Not really into the game are you?
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Old 08-28-2008, 09:36 PM   #107
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Re: russia/ georgia

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Absolutely. To both questions.
Do you honestly believe the Civil War was a mistake?

Also, there would be chaos if anyone could declare independence. Hawaii, those nuts in the Michigan militias, and a bunch of others would secede from the U.S. Pockets inside of states, cities, and neighborhoods would be independent countries. Needless to say, everything would be f'ed up.

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Not really into the game are you?
Huh? I'm watching it, recording it, and commenting on it in the thread.

Last edited by Sheriff Gonna Getcha; 08-29-2008 at 12:49 AM.
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Old 08-28-2008, 09:44 PM   #108
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Re: russia/ georgia

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Originally Posted by Beemnseven View Post
As to the historical notes, even the best among us make mistakes. Still, the fact remains, the Russians faced what at the time were two of the best trained, most invincible armies the world ever saw, and thwarted both of them.

As far as battlefield strategy goes, I'm not going to get into C-130s and airstrikes and whatnot. The most I can muster on that subject was what I learned playing Risk, Statego, and Axis & Allies when I was 14 years old.

None of that really matters. You may be right that the Russians wouldn't do anything. Perhaps they're just talking and acting tough. But that's not the point. The issue I'm trying to address is this mentality that violence is the first answer, or that we'll "win" or "beat" the enemy in a conflict with such a casual attitude as though we're watching a football game.

The only thing that matters is making sure something like that never happens. Because regardless of which side ultimately prevails, tens of thousands of Americans would be killed. And for what? American blood spilled over 4.6 million Georgians in a part of the world where we never should have been in the first place?

No thanks.
We never should have been in Europe, helping to set up NATO, during the Cold War when the USSR was publicly saying it's goal was world domination?

You're losing me. You've made some good points in this thread, but you're starting to run yourself out of the inning here.

Besides, even if you don't agree with the politics behind our presence in Georgia and other parts of Europe, you have to acknowledge the immense peace of mind a strategically placed missile defense system brings to us here at home.

We know that Iran has no problems dealing with terrorists. We also know they are working towards nuclear capabilities. Should our diplomacy/tough talk fail to persuade them to give up their pursuits, it's a rather smart contingency plan to be able to protect Europe, Israel, and the US mainland by having the ability to shoot any ICBM's out of the sky.

If it's not Iran, it could be North Korea. If it's not them, it could be someone else who has an axe to grind with us.

And please don't suggest we shouldn't be protecting Europe or Israel in the first place, because then you'd render yourself entirely irrelevant.
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Old 08-28-2008, 09:49 PM   #109
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Re: russia/ georgia

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Man with all this talk I bet next week the draft will start and the training of troops will begin. Mother and daughters will hit the factories making planes and tanks. We will be scraping all of our extra metal to build our fleet of ships.
Now that you mention it, after watching the game tonight the Redskins might serve Washington more effectively being drafted into service of their country than playing like this?
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Old 08-31-2008, 07:48 AM   #110
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Re: russia/ georgia

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Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha View Post
Do you honestly believe the Civil War was a mistake?
Also, there would be chaos if anyone could declare independence. Hawaii, those nuts in the Michigan militias, and a bunch of others would secede from the U.S. Pockets inside of states, cities, and neighborhoods would be independent countries. Needless to say, everything would be f'ed up.[QUOTE]

Yes, I'd call the Civil War a huge mistake. Other countries were able to phase out slavery without getting over 600,000 people killed.

As to secession, does a battered wife not have the right to 'secede' from an abusive husband? Do you have a problem with declaring independence from an abusive government? In colonial times, you'd have been a Tory I suppose, right?

Let's also consider the words of the 'hero of the union' Abraham Lincoln:

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable – a most sacred right – a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world."

Last edited by Beemnseven; 08-31-2008 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 08-31-2008, 08:09 AM   #111
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Re: russia/ georgia

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Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
We never should have been in Europe, helping to set up NATO, during the Cold War when the USSR was publicly saying it's goal was world domination?

You're losing me. You've made some good points in this thread, but you're starting to run yourself out of the inning here.

Besides, even if you don't agree with the politics behind our presence in Georgia and other parts of Europe, you have to acknowledge the immense peace of mind a strategically placed missile defense system brings to us here at home.

We know that Iran has no problems dealing with terrorists. We also know they are working towards nuclear capabilities. Should our diplomacy/tough talk fail to persuade them to give up their pursuits, it's a rather smart contingency plan to be able to protect Europe, Israel, and the US mainland by having the ability to shoot any ICBM's out of the sky.

If it's not Iran, it could be North Korea. If it's not them, it could be someone else who has an axe to grind with us.

And please don't suggest we shouldn't be protecting Europe or Israel in the first place, because then you'd render yourself entirely irrelevant.
I've lost you? Doesn't seem like we've ever been on the same page with this issue. If fact, your response here doesn't seem to fit anything that I've said in the first place.

I've said nothing about the beginnings of NATO, or the reasons for setting it up. Given the circumstances that we helped create, I understand the need to begin an alliance to deter aggression.

In general, I favor a foreign policy of non-intervention. That means we would never have gotten involved in World War I -- we would never have tipped the balance of power in favor of the allies; there would never have been a Treaty of Versailles, the German people would never have been crushed to the point of giving rise to Adolf Hitler, the Russians wouldn't have fallen for the promises of Lenin, and World War II as we know it wouldn't have happened. That means no Cold War, and hence, no need for NATO.

With no secret operation in Iran to overthrow Mohammed Mossadegh in 1953, there would never have been the oppressive Shah, followed by the Ayatollah Khomeni. Iran would have been just another friendly nation -- as they were for eons -- instead of a nation "who has no problem dealing with terrorists" capable (and they aren't) of lobbing ICBMs at Europe.

And no, unless I've missed something, Israel isn't the 51st state so we have no obligation to protect them, or any other European nation.
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Old 09-01-2008, 04:19 PM   #112
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Re: russia/ georgia

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Originally Posted by Beemnseven View Post
Yes, I'd call the Civil War a huge mistake. Other countries were able to phase out slavery without getting over 600,000 people killed.
So slavery should have been "phased out?" So, essentially, slavery should have been tolerated?

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Originally Posted by Beemnseven View Post
As to secession, does a battered wife not have the right to 'secede' from an abusive husband? Do you have a problem with declaring independence from an abusive government? In colonial times, you'd have been a Tory I suppose, right?
A battered wife? Really? I find it interesting that you say that slavery should have been tolerated and eventually phased out, and then say that the "Northern Government" was oppressive. My brain hurts.
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Old 09-22-2008, 04:51 PM   #113
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Re: russia/ georgia

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Old 09-22-2008, 08:10 PM   #114
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Re: russia/ georgia

Good link. I liked how Powell side-stepped the comment about "we're all Georgians now". But IMO he's a bit too dovish on Russia for my taste. Russia, in concert with Venezula, Iran, North Korea and China appears to be taking the same tact that we took to bring the Soviet Union down and that's to challenge and create turmoil for us at every potential trouble spot for us.

FOXNews.com - Bush Voices Concern Over North Korea's Plans to Re-Open Nuke Reactor - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News
(How convenient after the Olympics are over)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/23/wo...l?ref=americas
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