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Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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Old 08-29-2008, 03:26 PM   #106
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
Does it prominently factor in deciding your vote?
I will take this as a question to all.

No and yes. I won't for someone because of the VEEP but it is an interesting development always and in some cases it does offer insight into the main candidates. I think in this case McCain's choice is more important ultimately than Obama's. Looking at both candidates it strikes me that while Biden doesn't offer much to Obama other than "he is safe" Palin offers McCain's is a homerun swing. It is either going to go foul or be a grandslam.

She seems like a doer. Somone who actually achieves things. It is hard for long time Senators to come across like that. Or Senators in general I guess. Put it this way. Knowing very little about her admittedly; if i had to chose, from the four main people right, now someone to run my city or be a principal at my child's school, I'd choose her over all the others. Not nearly comparable responsibilties I know but it reflects how apathetic I am towards the three Senators running for the biggest jobs in our country. I guess I don't like Senators all that much. They just seem like do nothings to me.
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Old 08-29-2008, 03:29 PM   #107
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
If Obama is inexperienced, Palin is woefully inexperienced. How is McCain going to play the experience and national security card? Seriously, at 72 he has one foot in the grave and his VP was nothing more than a mayor of a small town one and half years ago. Palin is also batshit crazy...no abortion in case of rape and incest! She'll get the Hillary vote alright.



I'm looking forward to the VP debate.
Woefully? She is the only one who has actual experience running a government.


"batshit crazy" there you go sounding completely sane a reasonable again. I know you disagree but I think you could state your arguments more eloquently sometimes and probably be much more persuasive man.
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Old 08-29-2008, 03:29 PM   #108
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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I don't think the pick was brilliant at all. Interesting, yes. Brilliant,that remains to be seen. One thing is for sure, we still haven't seen how this woman responds to the national spot light. The other three candidates have been vetted and then some for the past nineteen months. She'll get her's condensed over the next two. I have no doubt that she's smart and a solid politician, but she'll have to flesh that out for all to see.

Also, I feel there's far more downside than upside to this pick. For one, if McCain somehow thinks this will sow up the disaffected Hillary supporters, I think that's a serious miscalculation on his part and could have a serious backlash. In other words, this pick somehow suggests that these women were in it because of gender and not passionate about issues like a woman's right to choose. Speaking of which, she's a staunch conservative on most major issues that matter to women of Hillary's ilk and that of the Dem. party.

So on paper this pick looks interesting, but let's see how she performs in the ring of battle and on the stump day in and day out.
The Palin move wasn't meant to go after Hillary supporters as much as it was to energize the conservative base. Conservatives have been very concerned about McCain's committment to conservative social values, and they vowed to give him a hard time if he selected Joe Lieberman as his running mate.

When it comes to Hillary supporters, 75% of them said they supported Obama before he picked Biden. When he picked Biden and passed over Hillary, only 66% of Hillary supporters said they would support Obama.

The act of passing over Hillary for VP appeared to alienate some of her supporters, and McCain sensed that he could appeal to them. But he's not doing that through Palin, Palin is there to pander to the conservatives. He's going to appeal to Hillary's supporters through his own centrist tendencies.
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Old 08-29-2008, 03:33 PM   #109
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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If Obama is inexperienced, Palin is woefully inexperienced. How is McCain going to play the experience and national security card? Seriously, at 72 he has one foot in the grave and his VP was nothing more than a mayor of a small town one and half years ago.
Really?

Obama is 47 and has been in the U.S. Senate for about three years. Palin is 44 and has been governor of Alaska for about three years.

Obama spent a decade or so in the Illinois state senate. Palin spent a decade or so on the city council and as a mayor.

Sure, I'll grant the edge in experience to Obama vs Palin, but trying to contrast them as night and day or super-experienced vs. childlike is a gross overstatement.

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Palin is also batshit crazy...no abortion in case of rape and incest! She'll get the Hillary vote alright.
Nothing furthers productive political discourse like declaring a party "batshit crazy."
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Old 08-29-2008, 03:39 PM   #110
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
The Palin move wasn't meant to go after Hillary supporters as much as it was to energize the conservative base. Conservatives have been very concerned about McCain's committment to conservative social values, and they vowed to give him a hard time if he selected Joe Lieberman as his running mate.

When it comes to Hillary supporters, 75% of them said they supported Obama before he picked Biden. When he picked Biden and passed over Hillary, only 66% of Hillary supporters said they would support Obama.

The act of passing over Hillary for VP appeared to alienate some of her supporters, and McCain sensed that he could appeal to them. But he's not doing that through Palin, Palin is there to pander to the conservatives. He's going to appeal to Hillary's supporters through his own centrist tendencies.
I disagree, I think in large part McCain took keen note of the trouble Barack was having with some Hill supporters and saw this as an opening and a potential game changer. Yes, he may rally the conservative base but at what cost? What do Indie voters think about this pick? Are they as conservative on many of the social issues that Palin has and does stand for? In the end, this election is coming down to that slice of the electorate. Obama is trying to rally his base and so is McCain. If both are successful, then it comes down to the independent voter. Another thing, McCain needs that vote more than Obama. This woman adds maybe two things to McCain's ticket. She's an energy buff, coming from the state of Alaska, and she's a woman. And to the extent he can capitilize on the latter will determine how good a pick this was. Now whether or not this was truly McCain's motive, no one knows. But I can tell you first hand, many of my Hillary friends see this as an insult.
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Old 08-29-2008, 03:41 PM   #111
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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Woefully? She is the only one who has actual experience running a government.


"batshit crazy" there you go sounding completely sane a reasonable again. I know you disagree but I think you could state your arguments more eloquently sometimes and probably be much more persuasive man.
Come now, you're saying she's more qualified/experienced than McCain or Obama to be president/vp?

What does it mean to be anti-abortion in the case of rape or incest? It's the most cruel thing I can imagine you can do to a woman after suffering a traumatic event. Oh "I know you have been raped/molest but you got to carry that child to term because [insert crazy religious reason]."

I was correct in my assessment but gentleman as I am I'll just say she is highly disagreeable.
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Old 08-29-2008, 03:42 PM   #112
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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Really?

Obama is 47 and has been in the U.S. Senate for about three years. Palin is 44 and has been governor of Alaska for about three years.

Obama spent a decade or so in the Illinois state senate. Palin spent a decade or so on the city council and as a mayor.

Sure, I'll grant the edge in experience to Obama vs Palin, but trying to contrast them as night and day or super-experienced vs. childlike is a gross overstatement.



Nothing furthers productive political discourse like declaring a party "batshit crazy."
Palin took office in December 2006. Not even two years to date.
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Old 08-29-2008, 03:45 PM   #113
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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Palin took office in December 2006. Not even two years to date.

You say tomato, I say tomahto, what's the difference of few years between friends eh?
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Old 08-29-2008, 03:46 PM   #114
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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You say tomato, I say tomahto, what's the difference of few years between friends eh?
Exactly.
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Old 08-29-2008, 03:53 PM   #115
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
Come now, you're saying she's more qualified/experienced than McCain or Obama to be president/vp?

What does it mean to be anti-abortion in the case of rape or incest? It's the most cruel thing I can imagine you can do to a woman after suffering a traumatic event. Oh "I know you have been raped/molest but you got to carry that child to term because [insert crazy religious reason]."

I was correct in my assessment but gentleman as I am I'll just say she is highly disagreeable.
Not at all over McCain but Obama has no more experience than her that is relevant to me. In the end though I think experience is over-rated. No one has experience enough to do this job 100% right and piss 50% of the country.

I just thought your statement was somewhat intellectually dishonest. msheig made a better argument I think.

As to the question of abortion: pro-lifers are just that. They believe in life. A life is a life is a life to them. Killing a life is bad to them. (the previous statement should not be construed to be that of my own)
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Old 08-29-2008, 03:57 PM   #116
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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As politically brilliant as I think the selection is, I'm not buying the whole "it will sway Hillary voters" bit.

Anyone who was a Hillary supporter is going to have so many problems with Palin that the only thing Hillary and Palin will have in common is that they're both women.

If that fact alone is enough to completely ignore differences with respect to EVERY other area of policy and approach, then those voters could have been swayed with the promise of cupcakes and the Palin selection was unnecessary.

What I find funny is the reaction to this. Does anyone really expect die-hard Obama fans to suddenly change their position with the Palin selection? Please.

The selection really just fortifies his voting base and is a really good grab at a lot of the independent swing voters. Anyone expecting massive upheaval or for lifetime Democrats to suddenly vote Republican are sorely mistaken.
I didn't say anything about a "massive upheaval" of Dem voters going Republican by virtue of this pick. What seems clear (certainly at this point) is that we're in store for another very close election. Independent voters, to a cliche-like extent, have been identified as key. But from the moment Obama was declared the winner of the D primary, the McCain campaign has identified pissed off Hillary voters as a potential source of some key swing votes, and they have not made any secret of that. Have they banked on getting all 18 million? Of course not. The vast, vast majority of those were cast by dyed-in-the-wool Dems who wouldn't be swayed by a Republican female VP candidate who shares, politically, almost nothing in common with them. But again, given the potentially very small margin of victory that the winner may have, McCain's camp has obviously considered that even a small percentage of Hillary primary voters could, in this election, make a huge difference.

Sure, Gov. Palin, as you say, may "solidify" McCain's base, but she was hardly the only VP candidate who could have. And given her very obvious lack of experience (putting aside for purposes of this point how that experience measures up to Obama's), she can't be said to have been the most experienced VP candidate either. She is also from a traditionally red state (Alaska went to Bush both times), so it's not like this pick was geared toward potentially picking off blue one. So, unless I'm being extremely unfair here, it appears that what the McCain camp liked most about the independently-but-not-comparatively talented Gov. Palin is that she is a woman. What's important about that, for purposes of this campaign? The pissed off Hillary, voters, that's what. The McCain camp is very aware of the very large turnout in the Dem primaries, and understands (as does everyone) that a lot of Hillary fans thought she got screwed, which is why such a big deal was made this past week about how much enthusiasm Hillary would exhibit for Obama in Denver.

Will Gov. Palin appeal to, along with the conservative base, some soccer moms, independents, and possibly a few "greens"? No doubt. But, my point is that what McCain is really after here is just a sliver of those disaffected Hillary voters, who, given their sheer numbers, would possibly make more of a numerical difference in yet another election that will probably be decided by a 1-2% margin.
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Old 08-29-2008, 04:06 PM   #117
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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I didn't say anything about a "massive upheaval" of Dem voters going Republican by virtue of this pick. What seems clear (certainly at this point) is that we're in store for another very close election. Independent voters, to a cliche-like extent, have been identified as key. But from the moment Obama was declared the winner of the D primary, the McCain campaign has identified pissed off Hillary voters as a potential source of some key swing votes, and they have not made any secret of that. Have they banked on getting all 18 million? Of course not. The vast, vast majority of those were cast by dyed-in-the-wool Dems who wouldn't be swayed by a Republican female VP candidate who shares, politically, almost nothing in common with them. But again, given the potentially very small margin of victory that the winner may have, McCain's camp has obviously considered that even a small percentage of Hillary primary voters could, in this election, make a huge difference.

Sure, Gov. Palin, as you say, may "solidify" McCain's base, but she was hardly the only VP candidate who could have. And given her very obvious lack of experience (putting aside for purposes of this point how that experience measures up to Obama's), she can't be said to have been the most experienced VP candidate either. She is also from a traditionally red state (Alaska went to Bush both times), so it's not like this pick was geared toward potentially picking off blue one. So, unless I'm being extremely unfair here, it appears that what the McCain camp liked most about the independently-but-not-comparatively talented Gov. Palin is that she is a woman. What's important about that, for purposes of this campaign? The pissed off Hillary, voters, that's what. The McCain camp is very aware of the very large turnout in the Dem primaries, and understands (as does everyone) that a lot of Hillary fans thought she got screwed, which is why such a big deal was made this past week about how much enthusiasm Hillary would exhibit for Obama in Denver.

Will Gov. Palin appeal to, along with the conservative base, some soccer moms, independents, and possibly a few "greens"? No doubt. But, my point is that what McCain is really after here is just a sliver of those disaffected Hillary voters, who, given their sheer numbers, would possibly make more of a numerical difference in yet another election that will probably be decided by a 1-2% margin.
Very sensible post. I think the big risk McCain assumes with this pick is that the remaining disaffected Hillary supporters, that are still out there, will remain upset for another two months. In my opinion, he is pre-supposing that their collective anger won't wear off and that they will hold that posture all the way until Novemeber 4th. That's one helluva gamble if you ask me. But the one question that Palan will have to unequicvocably answer is, are you ready to be Commander in Chief if put in that situation. Joe Biden, by virtue of his own bid for POTUS, has been vetted in that regard.
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Old 08-29-2008, 04:39 PM   #118
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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She just gave an incredible speech and even gave credit to Ms. Clinton for furthering the progress of women. She told about her accomplishments of holding people accountable in government, her great experience and qualifications, and how her son joined the army.

She is infinitely more qualified than Obama with all of her executive experience and she has a strong set of morals on top of that. She;s a great speaker too and did nothing to trash her opponents.

McCain looks like a genius now.
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Old 08-29-2008, 04:51 PM   #119
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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Not at all over McCain but Obama has no more experience than her that is relevant to me. In the end though I think experience is over-rated. No one has experience enough to do this job 100% right and piss 50% of the country.

I just thought your statement was somewhat intellectually dishonest. msheig made a better argument I think.

As to the question of abortion: pro-lifers are just that. They believe in life. A life is a life is a life to them. Killing a life is bad to them. (the previous statement should not be construed to be that of my own)
Why is my statement intellectually dishonest? I simply said McCain can't play the experience and national security card he has been playing given his VP pick. I mean look at his ads. As I have said countless (Understanding the Issues: Education) times (Senator Caught Trying to Solicit Sex in Men's Room), I believe experience is overrated and overplayed. You can have all the experience in the world and still lack sound judgment and have poor policy.

Last edited by saden1; 08-29-2008 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 08-29-2008, 04:59 PM   #120
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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Originally Posted by BringBackJoeT View Post
I didn't say anything about a "massive upheaval" of Dem voters going Republican by virtue of this pick. What seems clear (certainly at this point) is that we're in store for another very close election. Independent voters, to a cliche-like extent, have been identified as key. But from the moment Obama was declared the winner of the D primary, the McCain campaign has identified pissed off Hillary voters as a potential source of some key swing votes, and they have not made any secret of that. Have they banked on getting all 18 million? Of course not. The vast, vast majority of those were cast by dyed-in-the-wool Dems who wouldn't be swayed by a Republican female VP candidate who shares, politically, almost nothing in common with them. But again, given the potentially very small margin of victory that the winner may have, McCain's camp has obviously considered that even a small percentage of Hillary primary voters could, in this election, make a huge difference.

Sure, Gov. Palin, as you say, may "solidify" McCain's base, but she was hardly the only VP candidate who could have. And given her very obvious lack of experience (putting aside for purposes of this point how that experience measures up to Obama's), she can't be said to have been the most experienced VP candidate either. She is also from a traditionally red state (Alaska went to Bush both times), so it's not like this pick was geared toward potentially picking off blue one. So, unless I'm being extremely unfair here, it appears that what the McCain camp liked most about the independently-but-not-comparatively talented Gov. Palin is that she is a woman. What's important about that, for purposes of this campaign? The pissed off Hillary, voters, that's what. The McCain camp is very aware of the very large turnout in the Dem primaries, and understands (as does everyone) that a lot of Hillary fans thought she got screwed, which is why such a big deal was made this past week about how much enthusiasm Hillary would exhibit for Obama in Denver.

Will Gov. Palin appeal to, along with the conservative base, some soccer moms, independents, and possibly a few "greens"? No doubt. But, my point is that what McCain is really after here is just a sliver of those disaffected Hillary voters, who, given their sheer numbers, would possibly make more of a numerical difference in yet another election that will probably be decided by a 1-2% margin.
I think I agree with you in principle, I may just not agree as to the margin.

I simply can't fathom of an individual who would have voted for Hillary who would now vote for Palin. Again, the only "issue" they remotely have in common is that they're both women.

Again, I'm sure their may be a small number of people who would go from Hillary to Palin solely on that basis, but my gut feeling is the number is so infintesimally small that even in a close race (which I agree it will be) it wouldn't matter. I can't imagine that number being in the tens of thousands, let alone millions.

I suppose if the race gets down to one candidate winning by a margin of a few thousand votes than maybe it will be important, but even when elections are close they're not THAT close.

You never know though - we'll only know when the whole thing is said and done come November.
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