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Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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Old 08-29-2008, 05:39 PM   #106
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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Originally Posted by Buster View Post
She just gave an incredible speech and even gave credit to Ms. Clinton for furthering the progress of women. She told about her accomplishments of holding people accountable in government, her great experience and qualifications, and how her son joined the army.

She is infinitely more qualified than Obama with all of her executive experience and she has a strong set of morals on top of that. She;s a great speaker too and did nothing to trash her opponents.

McCain looks like a genius now.
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Old 08-29-2008, 05:51 PM   #107
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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Not at all over McCain but Obama has no more experience than her that is relevant to me. In the end though I think experience is over-rated. No one has experience enough to do this job 100% right and piss 50% of the country.

I just thought your statement was somewhat intellectually dishonest. msheig made a better argument I think.

As to the question of abortion: pro-lifers are just that. They believe in life. A life is a life is a life to them. Killing a life is bad to them. (the previous statement should not be construed to be that of my own)
Why is my statement intellectually dishonest? I simply said McCain can't play the experience and national security card he has been playing given his VP pick. I mean look at his ads. As I have said countless (Understanding the Issues: Education) times (Senator Caught Trying to Solicit Sex in Men's Room), I believe experience is overrated and overplayed. You can have all the experience in the world and still lack sound judgment and have poor policy.
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Old 08-29-2008, 05:59 PM   #108
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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I didn't say anything about a "massive upheaval" of Dem voters going Republican by virtue of this pick. What seems clear (certainly at this point) is that we're in store for another very close election. Independent voters, to a cliche-like extent, have been identified as key. But from the moment Obama was declared the winner of the D primary, the McCain campaign has identified pissed off Hillary voters as a potential source of some key swing votes, and they have not made any secret of that. Have they banked on getting all 18 million? Of course not. The vast, vast majority of those were cast by dyed-in-the-wool Dems who wouldn't be swayed by a Republican female VP candidate who shares, politically, almost nothing in common with them. But again, given the potentially very small margin of victory that the winner may have, McCain's camp has obviously considered that even a small percentage of Hillary primary voters could, in this election, make a huge difference.

Sure, Gov. Palin, as you say, may "solidify" McCain's base, but she was hardly the only VP candidate who could have. And given her very obvious lack of experience (putting aside for purposes of this point how that experience measures up to Obama's), she can't be said to have been the most experienced VP candidate either. She is also from a traditionally red state (Alaska went to Bush both times), so it's not like this pick was geared toward potentially picking off blue one. So, unless I'm being extremely unfair here, it appears that what the McCain camp liked most about the independently-but-not-comparatively talented Gov. Palin is that she is a woman. What's important about that, for purposes of this campaign? The pissed off Hillary, voters, that's what. The McCain camp is very aware of the very large turnout in the Dem primaries, and understands (as does everyone) that a lot of Hillary fans thought she got screwed, which is why such a big deal was made this past week about how much enthusiasm Hillary would exhibit for Obama in Denver.

Will Gov. Palin appeal to, along with the conservative base, some soccer moms, independents, and possibly a few "greens"? No doubt. But, my point is that what McCain is really after here is just a sliver of those disaffected Hillary voters, who, given their sheer numbers, would possibly make more of a numerical difference in yet another election that will probably be decided by a 1-2% margin.
I think I agree with you in principle, I may just not agree as to the margin.

I simply can't fathom of an individual who would have voted for Hillary who would now vote for Palin. Again, the only "issue" they remotely have in common is that they're both women.

Again, I'm sure their may be a small number of people who would go from Hillary to Palin solely on that basis, but my gut feeling is the number is so infintesimally small that even in a close race (which I agree it will be) it wouldn't matter. I can't imagine that number being in the tens of thousands, let alone millions.

I suppose if the race gets down to one candidate winning by a margin of a few thousand votes than maybe it will be important, but even when elections are close they're not THAT close.

You never know though - we'll only know when the whole thing is said and done come November.
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Old 08-29-2008, 06:20 PM   #109
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

Yeah, i think the only voters who go from Clinton to McCain will most likely do so out of spite for the (in their mind) slights Hillary took from Obama.
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Old 08-29-2008, 07:54 PM   #110
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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This election is probably not going to be as close as some people think. If the conservative base stayed home in November(McCain has always struggled to appeal to Evangelicals and the like) the election might have been a landslide. This choice just gets the conservative Christian vote solidified so that the GOP doesn't get completely embarrased. The GOP doesn't have a chance to win IMO. They just need to keep it close.
Not so fast my friend.....

War Room - Salon.com

You're right on about the conservative Christian vote, but the rest of your analysis is way off.

Angry Clinton supporters toast McCain, roast Obama - CNN.com

Hillary Supporters for McCain: Gov. Sarah Palin: Presidential Material

Ha! Say the Online Hillary Supporters | The Trail | washingtonpost.com

The first article is from CNN (no bastion of conservatism) and these numbers don't bode well for Obama, "But there is some bad news for Obama. The poll showed that 66 percent of Clinton supporters -- registered Democrats who want Clinton as the nominee -- are now backing Obama. That's down from 75 percent in the end of June. Twenty-seven percent of them now say they'll support McCain, up from 16 percent in late June."

Let's look at those numbers. Hillary was claiming approximately 18 million votes in the primary, for the sake of being conservative (pun intended), let's say it was only 10 million. Now polls are showing approximately 27% are favoring McCain, not staying home, favoring McCain. Being conservative again, let's say the real number is 20%, that translates into 2 million votes for McCain that are coming from the Democrat base. That is a 4 million vote swing. If those votes are in battleground areas (very likely) the media will be forecasting McCain the winner before midnight on election night.

This was before McCain's VP pick of Palin. I know the other links are just blogs, but I think many are underestimating the Hillary effect. IMO McCain will win, largely due to support from Hillary supporters (or non-support of them for Obama). It will be similar to Bill Clinton's win over Bush I, where Perot took enough of the conservative votes to allow Clinton to win.
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Old 08-29-2008, 08:57 PM   #111
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

What will be interesting to see, is will the Hilary supporters support Palin ,after Hilary starts to slam Palin? If I was the Dems, I would send Hilary after her.
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Old 08-29-2008, 09:23 PM   #112
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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Why is my statement intellectually dishonest? I simply said McCain can't play the experience and national security card he has been playing given his VP pick. I mean look at his ads. As I have said countless (Understanding the Issues: Education) times (Senator Caught Trying to Solicit Sex in Men's Room), I believe experience is overrated and overplayed. You can have all the experience in the world and still lack sound judgment and
have poor policy.
Experience generally becomes unimportant when one does not have any. I wonder would you select your surgeon on this basis as well?

Why are we comparing the experience level of the Obama, and Palin? Compare Obama to Mccain, and Biden to Palin if necessary. Anything else is meaningless
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Old 08-29-2008, 09:49 PM   #113
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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Experience generally becomes unimportant when one does not have any. I wonder would you select your surgeon on this basis as well?

Why are we comparing the experience level of the Obama, and Palin? Compare Obama to Mccain, and Biden to Palin if necessary. Anything else is meaningless
It depends, Jan Adams has experience but you wouldn't want him cutting your nails much less operate on you. Point is experience is nice but it doesn't tell you much. I routinely interview candidates and they all have all sorts of fancy experience on their resume but the truth is while you can bullshit me with your resume you certainly can't bullshit me on the white-board.

Is it really that hard to understand my position or what I have written? McCain is the one playing the experience card...McCain effectively took the experience card off the table with the Palin pick seeing how he is a dead man walking. Really simple.
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Old 08-29-2008, 10:19 PM   #114
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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Is it really that hard to understand my position or what I have written? McCain is the one playing the experience card...McCain effectively took the experience card off the table with the Palin pick seeing how he is a dead man walking. Really simple.
And yet, the selection of Biden by Obama does not remove the "Change Card" even though Biden is backed by two of the most powerful insider lobbying powers - big labor and trial lawyers. And sorry, don't give me the dead man walking routine in today's world of extended living. (not extended survival -extended living. We are past the days of "shove em in a home at 70")
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Old 08-29-2008, 10:56 PM   #115
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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It depends, Jan Adams has experience but you wouldn't want him cutting your nails much less operate on you. Point is experience is nice but it doesn't tell you much. I routinely interview candidates and they all have all sorts of fancy experience on their resume but the truth is while you can bullshit me with your resume you certainly can't bullshit me on the white-board.

Is it really that hard to understand my position or what I have written? McCain is the one playing the experience card...McCain effectively took the experience card off the table with the Palin pick seeing how he is a dead man walking. Really simple.
No it is not difficult to understand your point. The political machinery on both sdes of the fence is in high gear searching out percieved weakness, and the exploitation of same.
I am not sure if "experience" trumps "change" or not. Your call
Ideally, we need a leader that possess's experience, judgement, etc, etc. While I am impressed with neither, I will end up voting for the one who I feel will do the least damage
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Old 08-29-2008, 11:15 PM   #116
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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And yet, the selection of Biden by Obama does not remove the "Change Card" even though Biden is backed by two of the most powerful insider lobbying powers - big labor and trial lawyers. And sorry, don't give me the dead man walking routine in today's world of extended living. (not extended survival -extended living. We are past the days of "shove em in a home at 70")
What does change mean to you? For me, it's change in policy and direction. Remove the change card...which means what? He's a typical politician? His policies will be no different than that of Republicans? He's just looking to get elected?

According to the CIA the mean life expectancy for males is 75.29 years. There's a good chance McCain might not make it through his first term. He has roughly 50/50 chance though his cancer complicates things. Oh never mind, I'm sure he has great genes and he'll get the best care money can buy to extend his life.
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Old 08-29-2008, 11:21 PM   #117
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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No it is not difficult to understand your point. The political machinery on both sdes of the fence is in high gear searching out percieved weakness, and the exploitation of same.
I am not sure if "experience" trumps "change" or not. Your call
Ideally, we need a leader that possess's experience, judgement, etc, etc. While I am impressed with neither, I will end up voting for the one who I feel will do the least damage
Experience vs Change? What does that mean?

Qualify "least damage."
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Old 08-29-2008, 11:37 PM   #118
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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Experience vs Change? What does that mean?

Qualify "least damage."
Mccain's platform of experience
Obama's platform of change

Least damage=least damage done to our country by either of our prospective Presidents
IMO it is a shame this is the best we can field.
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Old 08-30-2008, 11:43 AM   #119
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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Originally Posted by mheisig View Post
The script goes something like this:

Obama: "We need change! Change, and hope!"

General Audience: "Sounds good! But what kind of change? What are we changing TO?"

Obama: "Just change. And hope too, don't forget the hope."

Liberals: "Can't argue with that, change is good! Long as we go somewhere, who cares where it is, right?"

Conservatives: "Change is scary. That nice looking old white man looks more reliable."

Obama: "pssst...change! (and hope)"

McCain: Unavailable. Currently having some soldering work done on his iron lung.

Obama: "We're hopeful FOR change! And the change will bring us hope!"

General Audience: "I don't know, still not sure what's changing or what it's changing to.

Liberals: "YEAH! We'll just hope that the change takes us where we want to go! We'll hammer out the specifics later."

Conservatives: Unavailable. Too embarrassed to comment.

McCain: "I'll give you change! How does a 44-year old woman as VP sound?!"

Obama: "Um...well, we don't really want THAT kind of change."

General Audience: "So what kind of change is good?"

Obama: "Don't know, but we know it's not that kind of change. It's change, just different."

Liberals: "Woohoo! Change! And hope!"

Conservatives: "Yowza! She's hot AND she's got a gun!"
Greatest. Post. Ever.
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Old 08-30-2008, 11:52 AM   #120
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Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate

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Palin is also batshit crazy...no abortion in case of rape and incest!
I'm not a hard line pro lifer in the slightest, but do explain why this is a "batshit crazy" position given the implication from the religious right that Abortion is a form of Murder.

Given that implication, the next step in logic tells us that two moral wrongs would not make a right.
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