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The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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Old 10-08-2008, 04:37 PM   #46
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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Originally Posted by dmek25 View Post
they had it right. until someone decided it was time to DE regulate. thats what started the free fall. if you let the rats run wild, soon there will be no more cheese
President Clinton didn't think de-regulation was a bad idea. This bill was signed on his watch.

from wiki: "Others have defended the Act and for actually making the crisis less severe than it would have been otherwise. President Clinton himself stated:
"I don't see that signing that bill had anything to do with the current crisis. Indeed, one of the things that has helped stabilize the current situation as much as it has is the purchase of Merrill Lynch by Bank of America, which was much smoother than it would have been if I hadn't signed that bill. On the Glass-Steagall thing, like I said, if you could demonstrate to me that it was a mistake, I'd be glad to look at the evidence."
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Old 10-08-2008, 04:42 PM   #47
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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they had it right. until someone decided it was time to DE regulate. thats what started the free fall. if you let the rats run wild, soon there will be no more cheese
I totally agree that regulation was missing. I am not sure that anything that was DEregulated was a problem though. I haven't seen any concrete evidence that specific derugulations led to this. I have seen financial assessments showing that housing prices trended parallel to inflation for decades until the government decided to create an "affordable" housing market. When they started playing with the housing markets prices magically trended exponentially up. When some wanted more regulations in the late 90's and early 2000's there was significant backlash from all sides of the aisles and nothing happened. I tend to think it was the lack of regulation in the first place more than any dergulation but I'd happily peruse anything that said otherwise. I'd really like to understand fundamentally what went wrong and the argument that regulation or lack of it CAUSED the problem rings pretty hallow when there are gads of evidence that gov't regulation quite regularly justs screws things up even more. My philosophy is more in line with "If it supposedly needs regulation so much then maybe something is fundamentally wrong with it in the first place".
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:08 PM   #48
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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And political correctness. Or more pointedly...they bought votes.
Please explain how political correctness brought down our economy.
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:32 PM   #49
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

Making shit up and passing opinions off as if they are facts is in style again eh? Weak!

I'd like to up the ante and blame the founders for this housing mess.
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Old 10-08-2008, 08:13 PM   #50
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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Making shit up and passing opinions off as if they are facts is in style again eh? Weak!

I'd like to up the ante and blame the founders for this housing mess.
What are you talking about? How am I passing an opinion off as fact?
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Old 10-08-2008, 08:20 PM   #51
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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Please explain how political correctness brought down our economy.
Politicians rigged the system so broke ass people who couldn't afford houses were able to get loans that banks historically would have never given. They did this because it sounded pretty darn nice to say they were creating "affordable" housing. Smart people who understood economics were saying that rigging the system so that these people could get houses they couldn't afford was a long term bad idea and no one listened. Hell they were called racist, even though it had nothing to do with race. These types of arguments have been called "racially tinged" even today.

And don't bother asking about references saden. Why don't you make an argument refuting this? Why isn't ANYONE making an argument refuting this? I'd love to hear the argument because I'd really like to understand this but I still haven't heard one person anywhere say "No that wasn't the cause."
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Old 10-08-2008, 09:32 PM   #52
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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Sorry, I don't personally believe that the government's role is to act as a mortgage lender. And... screw Wall Street. And Main Street. If you choose to *risk* your company's assets in shady, fundamentally poor investments and it comes back to bite you in the ass, that's on you. If you choose to *risk* your financial well being and purchase a home you cannot afford, that's on you. Everybody loves free/cheap money/assets but nobody wants to be responsible for their piss poor decision making. My own view is, let 'em fail, there will be a vacuum formed and new business will rush in to fill it. It may take time but I truly believe that would be the best in the long term. The way we're currently going, no one is going to learn ANYTHING from this mess. Everyone who screwed up and put us in this situation is going to get bailed out at the expense of everyone who was responsible. That's fucked up.
We are facing perhaps the greatest financial crisis in the entire history of our country; a crisis that could entail the collapse of thousands of businesses, the firing of millions of Americans, the break up of families, people going hungry, etc. and you're foremost concerned about punishing a few CEOs? Your opinion of the bailout shouldn't be based on a desire to punish bad businessmen, it should be based on a desire to make sure that the rest of us don't get hurt by their poor decisions.
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Old 10-09-2008, 12:25 AM   #53
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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Politicians rigged the system so broke ass people who couldn't afford houses were able to get loans that banks historically would have never given. They did this because it sounded pretty darn nice to say they were creating "affordable" housing. Smart people who understood economics were saying that rigging the system so that these people could get houses they couldn't afford was a long term bad idea and no one listened. Hell they were called racist, even though it had nothing to do with race. These types of arguments have been called "racially tinged" even today.

And don't bother asking about references saden. Why don't you make an argument refuting this? Why isn't ANYONE making an argument refuting this? I'd love to hear the argument because I'd really like to understand this but I still haven't heard one person anywhere say "No that wasn't the cause."

Trying to help low income individuals become home owners is "politically correct?" It might be stupid, but I don't think it's politically correct. Also, I don't know how race, including charges of racism, has any role in this debate.

As for the causes of the crisis, you yourself said there is a lot of blame to go around.
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Old 10-09-2008, 01:58 AM   #54
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha View Post
We are facing perhaps the greatest financial crisis in the entire history of our country; a crisis that could entail the collapse of thousands of businesses, the firing of millions of Americans, the break up of families, people going hungry, etc. and you're foremost concerned about punishing a few CEOs? Your opinion of the bailout shouldn't be based on a desire to punish bad businessmen, it should be based on a desire to make sure that the rest of us don't get hurt by their poor decisions.
I think I'm missing something here. If the government buys up all bad assets and mortgages and gives the financial sector a lift with taxpayer money, do the taxpayers just end up paying off the bad loans over time and this all goes away? Or are there still going to be long term ramifications of the government holding bad assets?

And whats the deal with the Global Economy? Are other markets having the same sort of issues as we are?
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Old 10-09-2008, 09:36 AM   #55
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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Trying to help low income individuals become home owners is "politically correct?" It might be stupid, but I don't think it's politically correct. Also, I don't know how race, including charges of racism, has any role in this debate.

As for the causes of the crisis, you yourself said there is a lot of blame to go around.
Are you saying that you don't believe that the notion of giving out loans to people who don't deserve them isn't politcaly correct? It was based on the idea that these people needed us to help them because they are so downtrodden and we have so much more than them. That is the epitome of political correctness. Instead of givng out crap loans to people who didn't have any business getting a loan why didn't we try to figure out how to get lower income people to make more money.

And I agree racism has nothing to do with this.
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Old 10-09-2008, 11:37 AM   #56
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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So you don't think taxes should be reduced?

No I don't think they should be reduced and I believe Americans are on my side.
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Old 10-09-2008, 11:48 AM   #57
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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No I don't think they should be reduced and I believe Americans are on my side.
You're missing my point in your earlier quote. I recognize that we will never pay for all of these expenditures without revenue (taxes). My point is that Obama is claiming that he will reduce taxes for 95% of the population, yet he has never introduced legislation to accomplish this since he's been in the senate. You don't have to be president to introduce legislation, you just have to do your job while you're in the senate. It seems to me he's treated his time in office as a good place to kill time until the election. That's my misgiving as it relates to Obama and it's probably the biggest reason I'm hesitant to give him my vote despite the myriad positive factors in his campaign.

To clarify, I love most of what Obama is promising to do, but based upon his lack of initiative as a senator, I have no reason to believe he will actually follow through.
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Old 10-09-2008, 11:51 AM   #58
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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I think I'm missing something here. If the government buys up all bad assets and mortgages and gives the financial sector a lift with taxpayer money, do the taxpayers just end up paying off the bad loans over time and this all goes away? Or are there still going to be long term ramifications of the government holding bad assets?

And whats the deal with the Global Economy? Are other markets having the same sort of issues as we are?

All this talk of tax payers getting their money back is hogwash. The debt ceiling has been increased again (Bush's tax cuts donít work; rich pay record high, below the median pay record low!) to 11.3 trillion to pay for this bailout. Are we ever going to pay this shit off? Not unless we commit to paying more than the interest and I don't ever see that happening. Are these companies ever going to pay back the tax payer? I wouldn't hold my breath. They'll find a way to screw tax payers.
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Old 10-09-2008, 11:57 AM   #59
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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We are facing perhaps the greatest financial crisis in the entire history of our country; a crisis that could entail the collapse of thousands of businesses, the firing of millions of Americans, the break up of families, people going hungry, etc. and you're foremost concerned about punishing a few CEOs? Your opinion of the bailout shouldn't be based on a desire to punish bad businessmen, it should be based on a desire to make sure that the rest of us don't get hurt by their poor decisions.
I think we are really blowing this out of proportion. No legitimate economist has said that we were headed for another depression if we didn't pass a bailout. (perhaps I'm wrong, but I haven't seen it.) Mass sectors of the populace were not making runs on banks and depleting them of their funds. Yes, there is economic hardship but from my way of thinking that requires a national "tightening of the belt" and frugality. This is just an ugly precedent that's been set and I truly worry for the future consequences of this "bailout." Look a little closer, AIG is now asking for BILLIONS (again, that's not just a word, it's a massive effing number) more. What happened with that? Simple, they realized they could get it, so why not ask? Do you really believe that this isn't going to continue? The cookie jar is open, my friend, and every greedy, unethical corporate type with the authority to do so is going to shove their slimy fist inside. It's human nature, you can't escape it.
This bailout was pushed through in EXACTLY the same spirit as the patriot act. Massive scare tactics and a sudden sense of urgency on the part of the government. I don't understand how no one can see the parallels.
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Old 10-09-2008, 12:00 PM   #60
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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You're missing my point in your earlier quote. I recognize that we will never pay for all of these expenditures without revenue (taxes). My point is that Obama is claiming that he will reduce taxes for 95% of the population, yet he has never introduced legislation to accomplish this since he's been in the senate. You don't have to be president to introduce legislation, you just have to do your job while you're in the senate. It seems to me he's treated his time in office as a good place to kill time until the election. That's my misgiving as it relates to Obama and it's probably the biggest reason I'm hesitant to give him my vote despite the myriad positive factors in his campaign.

To clarify, I love most of what Obama is promising to do, but based upon his lack of initiative as a senator, I have no reason to believe he will actually follow through.
We all have priorities and preferences, like fighting nuclear proliferation. Your implication is that since he as never introduced a bill to reduce taxes he won't reduce taxes once elected. It's a fallacy and a jump.

You know, I love children but I don't have any. Does this mean I don't really like children or that I won't want any once I get married? This is silly stuff beneath discussion.
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