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The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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Old 10-09-2008, 12:07 PM   #61
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
We all have priorities and preferences, like fighting nuclear proliferation. Your implication is that since he as never introduced a bill to reduce taxes he won't reduce taxes once elected. It's a fallacy and a jump.

You know, I love children but I don't have any. Does this mean I don't really like children or that I won't want any once I get married? This is silly stuff beneath discussion.
Your specific job for the last 3 years hasn't been procreation. His has been legislation. It's only beneath discussion because it doesn't mesh with your view. You can't tell me with a straight face that you think someone that has had years of opportunity to do something, has not, but all of a sudden it will become a priority (enough of one to make campaign promises about) once in the oval office? Sorry, not buying it. It's bullshit and if that is, what else about this great campaign of hope is? That's what scares me. i couldn't honestly care less if he reduces taxes or not. I'm not starving.

Obama is absolutely fantastic when it comes to "I will" but there's not much there when it comes to "I did." The fact that every Obama supporter i've spoken with wants to sweep that under the rug bothers me.
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Old 10-09-2008, 12:41 PM   #62
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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Your specific job for the last 3 years hasn't been procreation. His has been legislation. It's only beneath discussion because it doesn't mesh with your view. You can't tell me with a straight face that you think someone that has had years of opportunity to do something, has not, but all of a sudden it will become a priority (enough of one to make campaign promises about) once in the oval office? Sorry, not buying it. It's bullshit and if that is, what else about this great campaign of hope is? That's what scares me. i couldn't honestly care less if he reduces taxes or not. I'm not starving.

Obama is absolutely fantastic when it comes to "I will" but there's not much there when it comes to "I did." The fact that every Obama supporter i've spoken with wants to sweep that under the rug bothers me.
Fair enough, he should have introduced a bill that matches his tax proposal in the senate. I guess McCain falls in the same category? He did say the Bush tax cuts were a bad idea back in the day too.


You know there's so many things to do in the senate besides propose tax cut legislation, but hey, that's what seems important to you so run with it. Personally, If a candidate says "I will...." I take their word for it though I may not agree. At this point that's the only thing they can do.

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Old 10-09-2008, 01:17 PM   #63
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

I would also like to add that if we use "he didn't introduce X legislation" to make decision about candidates fitness and ability to follow through promises then you hamper a candidates ability to propose any new ideas and the potential for progress in general.

Now if you want to use his voting record to support your argument then I'm with you. He voted for taxes increases or he voted against reducing taxes are all valid arguments to base your decision on.

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Old 10-09-2008, 01:21 PM   #64
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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I think we are really blowing this out of proportion. No legitimate economist has said that we were headed for another depression if we didn't pass a bailout. (perhaps I'm wrong, but I haven't seen it.)
I'm not sure what newspapers you read, but just about every respected economist, financial analyst, etc. I know of said there was a decent chance of entering another depression if Congress didn't approve the bailout (in one form or another). I don't pretend to know everything about this crisis, but when dozens of people like Warren Buffet are yelling fire, I listen. Before you attack Buffet's credibility, let me add that he's one of the brightest minds in America, lives a modest lifestyle despite a net worth in the billions, and isn't part of some conspiracy to defraud the taxpayers.

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Mass sectors of the populace were not making runs on banks and depleting them of their funds. Yes, there is economic hardship but from my way of thinking that requires a national "tightening of the belt" and frugality.
When AIG, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch, Bear Stearns, WaMu collapse in short order and dozens of other bedrocks are on the brink of extinction, it's not just a "tightening of the belt." We haven't seen so many reputable financial institutions collapse since 1929 and your average businesses are feeling the crunch. The market for commercial paper totally collapsed. Well capitalized businesses can't get loans. I work in mergers and acquisitions and I've seen about 70% of the deals I was working on simply die because of lack of financing.

I'm not saying a Great Depression was or is inevitable, but we were or are standing on the edge of the cliff. This is NOT the same as the recessions we faced in 2001, 1991, 1987, etc.

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The cookie jar is open, my friend, and every greedy, unethical corporate type with the authority to do so is going to shove their slimy fist inside.
That's a very populist message, one that Glenn Beck and Lou Dobbs would be proud of, and probably resonates with the vast majority of Americans, but it doesn't really say anything. It doesn't address the nature of the crisis, our viable alternatives, etc.

I certainly don't want to give nearly a trillion dollars to companies that f'ed up. Why the hell would I? But many people have got the question we face all wrong. We shouldn't ask, "Do I want to give $700B to corporations that made bad business decisions?" We should ask, "What is the best response to the current crisis we face?"
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Old 10-09-2008, 01:23 PM   #65
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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Fair enough, he should have introduced a bill that matches his tax proposal in the senate. I guess McCain falls in the same category? He did say the Bush tax cuts were a bad idea back in the day too.


You know there's so many things to do in the senate besides propose tax cut legislation, but hey, that's what seems important to you so run with it. Personally, If a candidate says "I will...." I take their word for it though I may not agree. At this point that's the only thing they can do.
Let me put this clearly: I could give a shit about tax cuts. The point is, Obama hasn't exhibited leadership in the senate and yet so many want to hand him the keys to the nation. Say what you want about McCain (and there's plenty negative to say of late), but he has been on the record trying to push legislation of varying types through and an opponent of corruption.
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Old 10-09-2008, 01:45 PM   #66
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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That's a very populist message, one that Glenn Beck and Lou Dobbs would be proud of, and probably resonates with the vast majority of Americans, but it doesn't really say anything. It doesn't address the nature of the crisis, our viable alternatives, etc.
Doesn't say anything? Companies that never before thought they could take large risks because, well, it was risky, now have seen an alternate reality. To say that is not dangerous, well, you have more faith in human nature than I.

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I certainly don't want to give nearly a trillion dollars to companies that f'ed up. Why the hell would I? But many people have got the question we face all wrong. We shouldn't ask, "Do I want to give $700B to corporations that made bad business decisions?" We should ask, "What is the best response to the current crisis we face?"
It's not an "either or" proposition, both questions bare asking, but it doesn't seem like anyone really wanted to give any thought to not bailing these firms out when they saw their own portfolios suffer. My feeling is there had to be another option, besides Wall Street simply putting their hands out. The gov removed any and all accountability from this situation. That's not right. I hear what you're saying, but I'm not sure you see my point.
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Old 10-09-2008, 01:46 PM   #67
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

and why is it everyone believes in Darwinism but not when it comes to the economy?
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Old 10-09-2008, 01:51 PM   #68
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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Please find the quote of McCain saying that the Bush tax cuts were a bad idea. What bills have Obama introduced and had them passed?
I am dismayed that you aren't aware of the fact that McCain opposed the Bush tax cuts.




Bills introduced by Obama and passed as law can be found here. Here are some of the important ones:
Quote:
  1. S.J.RES.23 A joint resolution clarifying that the use of force against Iran is not authorized by the Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq, any resolution previously adopted, or any other provision of law.
  2. S.1084 : A bill to provide housing assistance for very low-income veterans;
  3. S.1324 : A bill to amend the Clean Air Act to reduce greenhouse gas emissions from transportation fuel sold in the United States
  4. S.2030 : A bill to amend the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971 to require reporting relating to bundled contributions made by persons other than registered lobbyists; and S.AMDT.41 to S.1 To require lobbyists to disclose the candidates, leadership PACs, or political parties for whom they collect or arrange contributions, and the aggregate amount of the contributions collected or arranged.
  5. S.2044 : A bill to provide procedures for the proper classification of employees and independent contractors, and for other purposes.
  6. S.2147 : A bill to require accountability for contractors and contract personnel under Federal contracts, and for other purposes.
  7. S.2433 : A bill to require the President to develop and implement a comprehensive strategy to further the United States foreign policy objective of promoting the reduction of global poverty, the elimination of extreme global poverty, and the achievement of the Millennium Development Goal of reducing by one-half the proportion of people worldwide, between 1990 and 2015, who live on less than $1 per day.
  8. S.1977 : A bill to provide for sustained United States leadership in a cooperative global effort to prevent nuclear terrorism, reduce global nuclear arsenals, stop the spread of nuclear weapons and related material and technology, and support the responsible and peaceful use of nuclear technology.
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Old 10-09-2008, 01:56 PM   #69
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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Bills introduced by Obama and passed as law can be found here. Here are some of the important ones:
Very cool post, thanks.


On a side note, I had to chuckle when I read the following on the LOC website "In the spirit of Thomas Jefferson, legislative information from the Library of Congress" As a nation, we certainly are carrying on in his spirit. The mad died indebted up to his eyeballs.
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Old 10-09-2008, 02:00 PM   #70
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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Well your man says he is going to reduce federal taxes for 95% of Americans. That number is also misleading because there are not 95% of Americans that even pay taxes.
First 95 percent refers to those who pay taxes. Obviously children don't get tax cuts though their parents will. Believe it or not those who don't pay taxes can get a tax cut in the form of an increased in the amount of Earned Income Tax Credit they receive.

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Old 10-09-2008, 02:10 PM   #71
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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and why is it everyone believes in Darwinism but not when it comes to the economy?
Are you referring to perverse version of Darwinism?
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Old 10-09-2008, 02:24 PM   #72
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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Are you referring to perverse version of Darwinism?
cute. yes, social Darwinism.
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Old 10-09-2008, 04:00 PM   #73
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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I hear what you're saying, but I'm not sure you see my point.
No I hear you, but I don't think some of the worst offenders are going to get off scott free. I guarantee you there is going to be a slew of litigation (both civil and criminal) when the dust settles and I fully expect some heads to roll. For example, the DOJ and SEC are already talking about conducting a criminal investigation into AIG's top management re: misleading shareholders (aka an "Enron suit). Not everyone will be held accountable, but some people will be.
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Old 10-09-2008, 04:07 PM   #74
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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Your right we are going to spend another 10 billion investigating these guys. If I'm correct haven't they allready found that one Co. was holding back info about their current financial strength.
There's money I'd support spending.
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Old 10-09-2008, 04:47 PM   #75
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Re: The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

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Your right we are going to spend another 10 billion investigating these guys. If I'm correct haven't they allready found that one Co. was holding back info about their current financial strength.
I believe both AIG and Lehman supposedly withheld certain "bad" information from shareholders. But they need to investigate who knew what and when, what those people did with their shares, and a whole host of other issues. It won't cost anything close to $10B, but it will likely cost millions and take years to complete.
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