The Official Presidential Debate Thread (Round 2)

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by saden1

I would also like to add that in if we use "he didn't introduce X legislation" to make decision about candidates fitness and ability to follow through promises then you hamper a candidates ability to propose any new ideas and the potential for progress in general.

Now if you want to use his voting record to support your argument then I'm with you. He voted for taxes increases or he voted against reducing taxes are all valid arguments to base your decision on.

Your first paragraph makes no sense at all. Has he ever introduced a bill and had it passed?

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

That's a very populist message, one that Glenn Beck and Lou Dobbs would be proud of, and probably resonates with the vast majority of Americans, but it doesn't really say anything. It doesn't address the nature of the crisis, our viable alternatives, etc.

Doesn't say anything? Companies that never before thought they could take large risks because, well, it was risky, now have seen an alternate reality. To say that is not dangerous, well, you have more faith in human nature than I.

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I certainly don't want to give nearly a trillion dollars to companies that f'ed up. Why the hell would I? But many people have got the question we face all wrong. We shouldn't ask, "Do I want to give $700B to corporations that made bad business decisions?" We should ask, "What is the best response to the current crisis we face?"

It's not an "either or" proposition, both questions bare asking, but it doesn't seem like anyone really wanted to give any thought to not bailing these firms out when they saw their own portfolios suffer. My feeling is there had to be another option, besides Wall Street simply putting their hands out. The gov removed any and all accountability from this situation. That's not right. I hear what you're saying, but I'm not sure you see my point.

[BleedBurgundy]

and why is it everyone believes in Darwinism but not when it comes to the economy?

[saden1]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Please find the quote of McCain saying that the Bush tax cuts were a bad idea. What bills have Obama introduced and had them passed?

I am dismayed that you aren't aware of the fact that McCain opposed the Bush tax cuts.




Bills introduced by Obama and passed as law can be found here. Here are some of the important ones:

1. S.J.RES.23 A joint resolution clarifying that the use of force against Iran is not authorized by the Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq, any resolution previously adopted, or any other provision of law.
2. S.1084 : A bill to provide housing assistance for very low-income veterans;
3. S.1324 : A bill to amend the Clean Air Act to reduce greenhouse gas emissions from transportation fuel sold in the United States
4. S.2030 : A bill to amend the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971 to require reporting relating to bundled contributions made by persons other than registered lobbyists; and S.AMDT.41 to S.1 To require lobbyists to disclose the candidates, leadership PACs, or political parties for whom they collect or arrange contributions, and the aggregate amount of the contributions collected or arranged.
5. S.2044 : A bill to provide procedures for the proper classification of employees and independent contractors, and for other purposes.
6. S.2147 : A bill to require accountability for contractors and contract personnel under Federal contracts, and for other purposes.
7. S.2433 : A bill to require the President to develop and implement a comprehensive strategy to further the United States foreign policy objective of promoting the reduction of global poverty, the elimination of extreme global poverty, and the achievement of the Millennium Development Goal of reducing by one-half the proportion of people worldwide, between 1990 and 2015, who live on less than $1 per day.
8. S.1977 : A bill to provide for sustained United States leadership in a cooperative global effort to prevent nuclear terrorism, reduce global nuclear arsenals, stop the spread of nuclear weapons and related material and technology, and support the responsible and peaceful use of nuclear technology.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by saden1

Bills introduced by Obama and passed as law can be found here. Here are some of the important ones:

Very cool post, thanks.


On a side note, I had to chuckle when I read the following on the LOC website "In the spirit of Thomas Jefferson, legislative information from the Library of Congress" As a nation, we certainly are carrying on in his spirit. The mad died indebted up to his eyeballs.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Well your man says he is going to reduce federal taxes for 95% of Americans. That number is also misleading because there are not 95% of Americans that even pay taxes.

First 95 percent refers to those who pay taxes. Obviously children don't get tax cuts though their parents will. Believe it or not those who don't pay taxes can get a tax cut in the form of an increased in the amount of Earned Income Tax Credit they receive.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

and why is it everyone believes in Darwinism but not when it comes to the economy?

Are you referring to perverse version of Darwinism?

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by saden1

Are you referring to perverse version of Darwinism?

cute. yes, social Darwinism.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by saden1

I am dismayed that you aren't aware of the fact that McCain opposed the Bush tax cuts.




Bills introduced by Obama and passed as law can be found here. Here are some of the important ones:

Sorry your link you gave did not say that any of his bills passed and the ones you listed from what I looked up (your link) have not been passed. Maybe the site is not updated.

[firstdown]

Ok, I did some checking and Obama has only two Bill that he has authored in his three year that have been voted into law and these are some real important laws at that.

S. 2125, A bill to promote relief, security, and democracy in the Democratic Republic of the Congo.
S. 3757, A bill to designate the facility of the United States Postal Service located at 950 Missouri Avenue in East St. Louis, Illinois, as the "Katherine Dunham Post Office Building."

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

I hear what you're saying, but I'm not sure you see my point.

No I hear you, but I don't think some of the worst offenders are going to get off scott free. I guarantee you there is going to be a slew of litigation (both civil and criminal) when the dust settles and I fully expect some heads to roll. For example, the DOJ and SEC are already talking about conducting a criminal investigation into AIG's top management re: misleading shareholders (aka an "Enron suit). Not everyone will be held accountable, but some people will be.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

No I hear you, but I don't think some of the worst offenders are going to get off scott free. I guarantee you there is going to be a slew of litigation (both civil and criminal) when the dust settles and I fully expect some heads to roll. For example, the DOJ and SEC are already talking about conducting a criminal investigation into AIG's top management re: misleading shareholders (aka an "Enron suit). Not everyone will be held accountable, but some people will be.

Your right we are going to spend another 10 billion investigating these guys. If I'm correct haven't they allready found that one Co. was holding back info about their current financial strength.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Your right we are going to spend another 10 billion investigating these guys. If I'm correct haven't they allready found that one Co. was holding back info about their current financial strength.

There's money I'd support spending.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Your right we are going to spend another 10 billion investigating these guys. If I'm correct haven't they allready found that one Co. was holding back info about their current financial strength.

I believe both AIG and Lehman supposedly withheld certain "bad" information from shareholders. But they need to investigate who knew what and when, what those people did with their shares, and a whole host of other issues. It won't cost anything close to $10B, but it will likely cost millions and take years to complete.

[JWsleep]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Ok, I did some checking and Obama has only two Bill that he has authored in his three year that have been voted into law and these are some real important laws at that.

S. 2125, A bill to promote relief, security, and democracy in the Democratic Republic of the Congo.
S. 3757, A bill to designate the facility of the United States Postal Service located at 950 Missouri Avenue in East St. Louis, Illinois, as the "Katherine Dunham Post Office Building."

Where did you get this info? Link? What was wrong with the Library of Congress? Worked fine for me. Lots of bills, many of them--like all bills--co-sponsored.

No party in power can survive this kind of economic meltdown. Not sure what else is relevant, I'm afraid, for good or ill.