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Should The Government Bailout GM?

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Old 11-20-2008, 06:51 AM   #16
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Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?

The labor rates given to the UAW workers directly reflect the problem. If you think for one minute that the management is going to negotiate to overpay the grunts and take home only a fair amount of earnings for themselves you're crazy... And half those guys don't do anything to help the company.
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Old 11-20-2008, 09:14 AM   #17
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Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?

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The way I read it - The janitors don't make 70.00/hour plus benefits - the cost to the company of salary, benefits, and taxes for a janitor is 70.00/hour. A 70/hour wage works out to roughly 140k a year salary. Pretty sure that's not the case.

Still, you figure that the actual wage is somewhere in the 30 - 40 bucks an hour. Damn good pay for a janitor.
GM pays an average of $33 an hour, and those selfish other companies pay a mere $19 plus a host of benefits.

From the beginning article. That's $14 more an hour vs their competition per employee on average. That's one of the reasons.
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Old 11-20-2008, 09:43 AM   #18
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Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?

No.

Bankruptcy will actually benefit the companies because they can restructure everything and if they have brains, eliminate the Union(s).

Unions are the problem. They are no longer necessary because the Government has put so many regulations about working conditions, fair hiring and even a minimum wage (although auto workers will be making far more than that).

They're turned into a way to fight for fairness for employees to a political machine that in itself is a business trying to get rich for themselves. They protect bad workers and prevent companies from hiring or even affording good workers.
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Old 11-20-2008, 09:51 AM   #19
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Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?

Angus MacKenzie, editor of Motor Trend, had a wonderful editorial in the December issue articulating the case for bailing out the big three. I don't think there is an electronic version, so you should check out the print version if the opportunity presents itself. Here is a blog entry of his that touches on some of the same points, but is not as polished as the one appearing in the magazine.
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Old 11-20-2008, 10:41 AM   #20
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Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?

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Angus MacKenzie, editor of Motor Trend, had a wonderful editorial in the December issue articulating the case for bailing out the big three. I don't think there is an electronic version, so you should check out the print version if the opportunity presents itself. Here is a blog entry of his that touches on some of the same points, but is not as polished as the one appearing in the magazine.
Wow, someone who actually knows what he is talking about. I don't know enough to argue with anything he said at all. But it all sounds pretty reasonable to me.
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Old 11-20-2008, 11:17 AM   #21
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Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?

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No.

Bankruptcy will actually benefit the companies because they can restructure everything and if they have brains, eliminate the Union(s).

Unions are the problem. They are no longer necessary because the Government has put so many regulations about working conditions, fair hiring and even a minimum wage (although auto workers will be making far more than that).

They're turned into a way to fight for fairness for employees to a political machine that in itself is a business trying to get rich for themselves. They protect bad workers and prevent companies from hiring or even affording good workers.
this is as about an uneducated post that i have ever read around here. your saying that the government will take care of these auto workers? the place i work at could definitely use a union. they make millions upon millions, cut jobs, add more and more responsibility to the remaining work force. they raise our health care co payments every year. meanwhile, the C.E.O's still receive their multi million dollar bonuses. on top of that, their stock options. does this seem fair to you buster? my average raise has been about 2% over the last 5 years. with my benefits costing me more, its like no raise at all
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Old 11-20-2008, 01:54 PM   #22
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Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?

The bailout isn't for the companies. Companies can go into bankruptcy and come out the other side in much better shape. The bailout is for the Union. That's why a better strategy for the CEOs would be to say, "We don't need your money". They should be threatening to file bankruptcy. Call the Democratic bluff. Pelosi and Reid will still be desperate to give them a fat pile of cash anyways because the UAW needs it far worse than the executives do. I'm forever amazed at how politically hopeless these CEOs are, though. It's not surprising that we are in the shape we are.
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Old 11-20-2008, 04:38 PM   #23
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Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?

i understand this completely. but my company set an unrealistic goal of 13% return on capital. 4 years in a row we exceeded it. this year, to date, we are at 11%. in today's turmoil, this is outstanding. we have proved we can flourish in today's market, but my raises are always 2%. how fair is this?
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Old 11-20-2008, 05:23 PM   #24
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Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?

I notice a lot of people on this thread are defending the unions in Detroit and complaining about how the blame should rest on management. Being the centerist I am I think it's fair to say that management has dropped the ball and is in part to blame, I mean hell, one of the Big 3 employed Matt Millen for how many years? However that doesn't expalin the fact that automakers with plants in the south are doing very well for themselves in terms of providing jobs as well as effective management.

The south is a lot of things that I despise, but in retrospect two things they seem to have right are warm weather and non-unionized auto plants, oh and affordable housing (for example a $300,000 house in Georgia cost over a $1,000,000 in California). Obviously now the southern auto plants aren't immune to the recession but last I checked companies like Toyota and BMW aren't flying to Washington in private jets begging for $25 billion from the federal government. Then again does anyone know whats going on in Japan and Germany?

Honestly though six figures for working on an assembly line is madness. Unions already have crippled the airline industry and I'll be damned if they get a hold of the auto industry as well. Plus now they're (unions) hoping to get a petition like ballot where they can send in votes for a certain politician which pretty much goes against everything America is suppose to stand for. I mean imagine if you don't sign the petition and you're part of a union?

We're past the days were companies would pay 5 cents a day to overworked employees. The government has regulations in place to protect workers. People frequently complain about companies outsourcing but the truth is the unions in respective industries made the cost of hiring people in America to much to be competitive. As a result the companies that could, choose to outsource (obvisouly airlines can't outsource) and now those jobs are never coming back.
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Old 11-20-2008, 06:04 PM   #25
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Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?

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We're past the days were companies would pay 5 cents a day to overworked employees. The government has regulations in place to protect workers. People frequently complain about companies outsourcing but the truth is the unions in respective industries made the cost of hiring people in America to much to be competitive. As a result the companies that could, choose to outsource (obvisouly airlines can't outsource) and now those jobs are never coming back.

not all unions are the same. Minimum wage hasn't changed much in the last 10-15 years... or since I've been in the workforce. A strong middle class is the backbone of a strong economy. Every day companies underpay for labor. We have a huge problem with wages paid out for labor not being re circulated within our country. Legal and illegal immigrants who are only here to make a wage are sending their pay overseas where the money they earn is very strong in a weak economy. There has been a lot of talk about doing something, but I can't even go to certain gas stations in my town without "day laborers" jumping in the back of my goddamn pickup truck. They live 30 deep in motel rooms and cheap housing, not worrying about buying cars here or otherwise stimulating our economy, and they don't worry about the quality of life they have here because their families are doing well in their homeland. I cannot blame these people, but if they arent moving their families here and staying here, they shouldn't be allowed to come here to work. These people are glad to take the labor jobs that don't require formal education, and employers are glad to get skilled labor dirt cheap and pay NO benefits.

On the other end of the spectrum you have unions who abuse the legal power they have over the companies they supply labor for. Fundamentally unions are both a good idea and neccessary, but unrealistic on their demands. They are bureaucratic entities whose only responsibility is to themselves. Both sides are guilty of taking all that they can, and the Govt. is guilty of not reasonably stepping in and mediating fair labor laws that support an economy set in a direction of growth. These problems have been a long time coming, and this did not start with the housing market crashing, or even the dotcom crash.... The housing market boom was a farce from the get-go, and the govt allowed that to happen as well. They could have raised the fed and capital gains as housing prices spun out of control and they would have curtailed much of the problem and made money in the process. I can only speculate as to why this didn't happen... but it doesn't matter.

Our economic governmental tweaks need to be re-tweaked. Nothing really overhauled, just a few adjustents and some time.
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Old 11-20-2008, 09:17 PM   #26
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Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?

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Our economic governmental tweaks need to be re-tweaked. Nothing really overhauled, just a few adjustents and some time.
or maybe they need to start tweaking less. Seems to me a lot of our problems are born out of gov't trying to affect markets. It isn't all THAT simple but it is hard to argue the gov't has done a good job of ever positively affecting the economy with policies meant to make things better. Usually the policies cost us in the long run. There is always a trade-off and often it is a big bad one coming down the tracks that we can't quite see.
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Old 12-03-2008, 07:44 AM   #27
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Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?

So the Big 3 execs are back. This time they're asking for 34B instead of 25B. This time they drove in and are saying they'll work for a buck next year.

This is getting sad. There are many industries that have had to go through what they are headed for. The airline industry, for a recent example. The bail-out is only a band-aid solution. Its funny that 2 weeks later they come in asking for $11B more.
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Old 12-03-2008, 09:14 AM   #28
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Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?

I hope to God everyone is seeing through this "Work for a buck" thing - "Okay, I will work for a buck, keep all my company perks, receive stock payments and a bonus based on undefined terms paid at my board's discretion."

Make no mistake about it, they will still be paid like kings only this time the money will come from you and me.

Sorry, if these guys want my tax money, I want it to go to R&D, restoring profitability and saving jobs. Before they get my money, their boards should be required to inform us exactly how these failed executives will be compensated including: 1) all company funds spent on providing them transportation, junkets, etc. (essentially anything the company pays for that they use or gain the benefit from, or is ostensibly intended to increase their profitablity to the company); 2) any bonuses for which they may be eligible, the cap on the bonuses and the specific standards that must be achieved to attain those bonuses; 3) Any stock or other ownership interest being transferred to the executive.

To me, this is the bare minimum these execs and their boards must do before they start telling me how they will change their company's structure to increase profitablity.
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Old 12-03-2008, 09:14 AM   #29
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Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?

Dear God, I am becoming a socialist.
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Old 12-03-2008, 11:51 AM   #30
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Re: Should The Government Bailout GM?

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Dear God, I am becoming a socialist.
Progress is a good thing :cool-smil
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