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Old 01-27-2009, 09:39 PM   #61
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Re: obama is taking my $

Whoa, whoa, whoa, easy there hero. First of all not all fetuses are innocent. In the event that a woman is rapped or drugged and she gets pregnant you are going to ensure that she bears a child of the person that did that to her? I believe that it is cruel and unusal punishment. If she does not want to bear that child, then she is entitled. After all isn't it the belief of most of you that the son will bear the sins of the father? Why shouldn't it be her choice? If killing a fetus is wrong, then you shouldn't eat eggs. No one Rep or Dem believes in killing a child. Hell, most of us do not believe in killing at all. Correct me if I am wrong but don't several people believe in mercy killings of animals when they are wounded or do not stand a strong chance of survival? What is the difference?


I swear that if you say "It's because we are human and they are animals" I will puke. Doesn't your book also say that you will look over the animals? Yet we will kill them at will. There cannot be a double standard. So let me ask you; are you a vegetarian? If not, then you really need to rethink your position.

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Old 01-27-2009, 09:43 PM   #62
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Re: obama is taking my $

You know what I find ironic? The fact that conservatives talk about freedom, democracy and liberty yet are willing to hold people/suspects in prison indefinitely without trial. They're willing to toss principles of freedom and the right to self-determination when a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy. They're OK with the killing that comes with war and civilian "collateral damage."

Abortion is OK so long as a woman makes the choice to abort before the 5 and half month mark.
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:03 PM   #63
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Re: obama is taking my $

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no one is telling women what to do with their body, what they're being told is "don't kill that child living inside you". just like saying "don't kill your neighbor". that's the stance from most pro-lifers.

You know, someone how that doesn't even sound right. It just doesn't make sense. You most certainly are telling women what to do with their bodies.

And while you're quoting scripture, let's quote a few more. What about adultry and bearing false witness? Are they not also deeds punishable under the Old Testament?

So now, which one of those three --murder, false witness (lying), adultry, are unlawful?

In other words, if my daughter get's knocked up out of wedlock, which one is the crime. The act of adultry or the abortion?
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:43 PM   #64
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Re: obama is taking my $

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In other words, if my daughter get's knocked up out of wedlock, which one is the crime. The act of adultry or the abortion?
Both, right? Am I answering a trick question?
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:55 PM   #65
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Re: obama is taking my $

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You know what I find ironic? The fact that conservatives talk about freedom, democracy and liberty yet are willing to hold people/suspects in prison indefinitely without trial. They're willing to toss principles of freedom and the right to self-determination when a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy. They're OK with the killing that comes with war and civilian "collateral damage."

Abortion is OK so long as a woman makes the choice to abort before the 5 and half month mark.

So you are "for" abortion, correct?
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Old 01-27-2009, 11:08 PM   #66
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Re: obama is taking my $

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You know what I find ironic? The fact that conservatives talk about freedom, democracy and liberty yet are willing to hold people/suspects in prison indefinitely without trial. They're willing to toss principles of freedom and the right to self-determination when a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy. They're OK with the killing that comes with war and civilian "collateral damage."

Abortion is OK so long as a woman makes the choice to abort before the 5 and half month mark.
I've got no problem holding suspected terrorists/murders, especially when those that get released go out and kill again. Let's not pretend we're holding upstanding and decent people at GITMO. We do agree that they shouldn't be held indefinitely, they should've been tried by military tribunals and formally imprisioned or executed already. I have no answer why the Bush Administration didn't tackle this more aggressively.

FOXNews.com - Bomber's Martyrdom Tape Renews Fears Over Consequences of Closing Gitmo - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News

I've got no problem with a woman's self-determination if she wants to terminate her own life, have at it. However the innocent and defensless life inside her has rights to freedom and self-determination too...correct? We just disagree on the definition of life.

From a government perspective, IMO the abortion issue should be decided by individual states with third trimester abortion being completely outlawed by the Fed. I'm not concerned about the counseling services, people can say what they want as long as my tax dollars aren't funding actual abortions, it's not my place to repress someone's opinion. We'll all eventually answer to the "Man" when our time is up.

P.S. F GB, and I hope you didn't have to work too late
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Old 01-27-2009, 11:33 PM   #67
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Re: obama is taking my $

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So you are "for" abortion, correct?
I am for people to have thee ability to exercise the right to abort an unwanted pregnancy. The only thing I would add to equation is reasonable and timely decision making.
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Old 01-27-2009, 11:36 PM   #68
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Re: obama is taking my $

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So who did you steal that quote from? It's baseless in application to 70.

Can't YOU consider that to pro-lifers in the world they consider abortion MURDER. THAT'S MURDER. Again I am not making that argument but it seems pretty ignorant of the pro-choicers who rarely consider that they aren't arguing with a side about taxes, or off-shore drilling. You are arguing with people who think you are ok with killing other people. Humans tend to get somewhat angry about murder so it stands to reason that they'd think pretty little of pro-lifers since they consider you tanatamount to murderers.
??? That was all based on stuff that Chip has said at various times. Not made up, does apply. And dude, are you accusing me of plagiarism? I don’t know if you are trying to be cute or whatever but don't ever under any circumstances accuse me of that again. Maybe I am overreacting but that's something I take very seriously, especially on a message board where my original words are the only things I exist through.

My only issue was with chip imputing dishonesty to all those who claim to struggle with the abortion issue, as if he knows what they really think. As if you can’t support it unconditionally as law while still harboring personal reservations. One can debate the coherence of this as policy, I just don’t think it’s necessary to take it a step further and charge dishonesty. Anyway, regarding the larger issue, while I am obviously pro-choice for reasons I won't expound upon, I have always tried to treat those who disagree with me on this issue with respect, so I think you've got me all wrong again.
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Old 01-27-2009, 11:38 PM   #69
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Re: obama is taking my $

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Originally Posted by 70Chip View Post
This is how one should post. This one gets a happy face. At least someone has been paying attention.

Our worldviews are just at odds. Your concept of morality is like a sand dune, ever shifting and unpermanent, while mine is more like a rock. It galls you that someone will actually say something is absolutely wrong, especially in the sexual realm. The reason is that God is at the center of my existence and your own false sense of yourself is at the center of yours. It's all very simple, really.
I do pay attention to everything you write, and find you to be erudite and well-read. One of my favorite posters, at least most of the time.

I believe your God to be illusory and live a lifestyle in accordance with that. I consider my sense of self to be, far from false, the only thing I know for sure to be true. I reside in Japan - the world capitol of godless hedonism - and live an accordant lifestyle, one that would make Jesus cry. My morality has been constructed on a case by case basis. There are things I find to be absolutely wrong but all of them involve harming another person, and none of them involve consensual sex. You get this, and I get you. We disagree, but that's not a problem.

I just don't like your tendency towards judgment, to dichotomize the world into the “decent people” on one hand, and those who disagree with you – the amoral shadow lurkers – on the other. Or, in today’s case, to call a group of people liars for claiming to not, like, be thrilled about abortion. As if you know what they really think! I live life with the assumption that most people are fundamentally decent and you don’t. You instead often remind me of a Gran Torino Eastwood, snarling at the rest of the world to get off your porch while ruthlessly judging anyone you perceive to be different than you.

Respectfully,
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Old 01-28-2009, 06:47 PM   #70
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Re: obama is taking my $

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Originally Posted by 12thMan View Post
In other words, if my daughter get's knocked up out of wedlock, which one is the crime. The act of adultry or the abortion?

just as gtripp said, the answer to your question would be both BUT (i believe) god will forgive you for either,if you sincerely ask for forgiveness. i'm not against abortion in certain situations such as rape but i do believe abortion should be against the law as an every day practice for unwanted pregnancies.

example: a boy gets his girlfriend pregnant due to unprotected sex. the girl decides she doesn't want a baby quite yet so she goes down to the clinic and gets an abortion.
that should be against the law.
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Old 01-28-2009, 07:27 PM   #71
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Re: obama is taking my $

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just as gtripp said, the answer to your question would be both BUT (i believe) god will forgive you for either,if you sincerely ask for forgiveness. i'm not against abortion in certain situations such as rape but i do believe abortion should be against the law as an every day practice for unwanted pregnancies.

example: a boy gets his girlfriend pregnant due to unprotected sex. the girl decides she doesn't want a baby quite yet so she goes down to the clinic and gets an abortion.
that should be against the law.
So should that girl go to jail if she get's an abortion illegally?
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Old 01-28-2009, 09:04 PM   #72
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Re: obama is taking my $

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So should that girl go to jail if she get's an abortion illegally?

not sure if she should go to jail but there should definatly be some sort of punishment. allthow(sp) if having an abortion was illegal and it was considered murder, then yea she should go to jail.
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Old 01-28-2009, 09:53 PM   #73
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Re: obama is taking my $

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So should that girl go to jail if she get's an abortion illegally?
While the Hyde Ammendment may protect against federal funds being used to perfom abortions under Medicaid or in military hospitals, I've seen several references that indicate the Mexico policy reversal will allow US funding to flow to overseas organizations that perform abortions. If I am incorrect, please provide a reference.

Unfortunately the Mexico policy is just the first salvo in a much larger attack on the lives of the unborn and reward for the multi-millions the pro-abortion lobby (NARAL, Planned Parenthood, etc.) has pumped into the democratic campaign coffers over the years.

The FOCA act proposed by Sen. Boxer is 2007 is very dangerous and, as written, has the potential to be used as legal ground to take away the rights of those who won't perform abortion on moral grounds (individual doctors, Catholic hosptials). Obama has stated as recently as 2008 that he would sign this legislation.

Abortion Foes Warn Of Hospital Closures, CBSNews.com Reports: Catholic Churches Are Pushing Parishioners To Pressure Congress Not To Pass "Radical" Abortion Bill - CBS News

Obama Administration, Vatican Clash Over Abortion - First 100 Days of Presidency - Politics FOXNews.com

This is exactly the type of federal intrusion in what should be a state and local issue that most conservatives feared from an Obama presidency with a Democrat controlled congress.

Below is a link to a site petitioning against FOCA.

Fight FOCA » Blog Archive » Thank You for Signing the Fight FOCA Petition
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Old 01-28-2009, 10:09 PM   #74
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Re: obama is taking my $

I don't care what you do or how you do it.

When a layman takes money out of my pocket and gives it to someone else I call the police.

When the politician does it we're not supposed to ask for vaseline? It's our duty as good Red, White, and Blue serfs to be sodomized by the man.

You should feel ashamed that you want to keep the fruits of your own labor. Why you're selfish. What are you going to do with all of that money? You can't take it with you. People have said this to me, no B.S! They were for the most part, people who've never worked a day in their lives. :vomit:

I don't care if some tart gets an abortion everyday of the week as long as she pays for it. The only thing that I should pay for are the roads and the military. I use the roads and the military keeps me from being microwaved.

Obama isn't taking our money. Congress is taking our money. Actually, they've run out of money. They're borrowing it from the Communist and the Arabs. Now isn't that nice? All along I thought we won the Cold War? The next thing you know, some scientist will come out and state the moon really is made of cheese.

I wonder what they'll want for all of that debt they're holding. Hmmmm Taiwan?
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Old 01-29-2009, 01:15 AM   #75
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Re: obama is taking my $

I blame the media. If it weren't for the media we would all be consistent and enlightened. 70, god willing our agendas will one day align.

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I can give you one example of religous bigotry at work in our culture. This very day, tens of thousands of people marched in Washington D.C. against the travesty that is abortion, yet it was not covered by any news outlets in this town. They wiilfully ignore this movement. Yet, if 500 homosexuals loiter near the capital in the wake of a democratic vote in California, the viewer cannot escape a sympathetic portrayal of their so called plight.
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I think the reality of Prop 8 is that it was actually done in by the media's desire to see Obama elected President. Here me out now. Normally the mainstream media would have done numerous stories on the referendum, all showing the homosexuals in the best possible light and the opponents as paranoid weirdos. Instead they mostly ignored it, only doing a few stories on the money aspect of the vote, very late in the race. Why would they do this? Beause the conventional wisdom in those circles is that John Kerry lost in part because several of these initiatives were on the ballot across the country. The media figured that if people made any sort of connection between Obama and Prop 8 it may hurt him in swing states like Virginia, Ohio etc. They may have even been told this explicitly by the Obama campaign. "We don't want to get tied into the prop 8 thing".
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