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How Low Can It Go?

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Old 03-03-2009, 06:12 PM   #31
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Re: How Low Can It Go?

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Originally Posted by FRPLG View Post
How does making people less rich help our economy. At any level. Taking money from consumers, be they rich or poor is bad for our econmoy. And anyways we're talking about the stock market here. People are crapping themselves right now over the market. People are pulling out, driving prices down, killing wealth because they fear what is going down in DC. Is it rational? I don't know but it is what is happening.
The premise of your argument is that taxes make people less rich which is bad for our economy. My question is at what threshold of taxation do we reach an equilibrium? Not too much taxes to be harmful to our economy and not too little to be beneficial to our economy?
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Old 03-03-2009, 06:25 PM   #32
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Re: How Low Can It Go?

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Saden I'd still like you to explain this.
He's a liberal working for a liberal paper but he explains the game very well. BTW the game isn't limited to just hedge fund managers either. Those CEOs paying themselves $1 a year mostly pay 15% tax rate.
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Old 03-03-2009, 07:17 PM   #33
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Re: How Low Can It Go?

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Seriously, that's the best you guys got? The rich "create jobs" and "make people less rich?" I guess returning the capital gains tax to the same level as Reagan and restoring the tax bracket to the same state as Clinton is a bad idea. If the economy recovers in two years will you be for these tax hikes?
Right now it's definitely a bad idea. I've got no problem to return the tax code to the 1986 Tax Reform Act once the economy is stabilized and the markets rebound. I think President Obama should look back at Reagan's strategies and policies and how he pulled us out of the Carter debacle in the 70s. If he wants to be successful, he must buck his party line and be fiscally conservative. If he wants to be socially liberal, I couldn't care less, we must put the country back on solid financial ground not more than double the national debt in ten years.

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I am not ignoring your point SS33, I see your hand and I believe it's being played two years too soon. Your take is wanting and your cards leave much to be desired my friend, it's time to fold and watch the game.
I pray you're right, but historical evidence shows my cards to be a bit stronger than you believe. I know we are polar opposites politically, however I can't see how you can support budget projections from the Obama administration that will double the national debt. How, four or eight years from now, will this have a positive outcome? I can't see it.
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Old 03-03-2009, 07:44 PM   #34
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Re: How Low Can It Go?

Haha, yeah this is Obama's fault. Nevermind the fact the entire global economy is in a tailspin and every country's stock market is bottoming out. I guess that's Obama's fault too.

Interesting to see that those who bristled when the left blamed Bush for everything are turning around and doing the same thing to our current president.

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Old 03-03-2009, 08:02 PM   #35
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Re: How Low Can It Go?

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His article never mentioned CEO's and paying them self a $1 and where is that now coming from because last time it was they are paid too much. The article pointed to hedge fund mgrs. who use a loopole (spelling?) to get around paying taxes as ordinary income. Why not just close the loopole to stop that and leave the capital gains tax alone. That way both sides get what they want.
He doesn't mention it but people are playing games like that. Typically CEOs pay themselves a decent salary but they turn around and get good chunk of pay via incentive based stock options to pay less effective tax rate. Fortunately these cheats are impeded by AMT.
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Old 03-03-2009, 08:45 PM   #36
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Re: How Low Can It Go?

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Haha, yeah this Obama's fault. Nevermind the fact the entire global economy is in a tailspin and every county's stock market is bottoming out. I guess that's Obama's fault too.

Interesting to see that those who bristled when the left blamed Bush for everything are turning around and doing the same thing to our current president.
djnemo65, I may not be as profound as some of our esteemed members of this fine community. But, when the largest global domino (the U.S.) has a it's economy in the toliet. All of the other little dominoes fall suit.

When our president, and his supporters are openly hostile to people of higher means, what would you expect the economy to do?

The vast majority of the people who pulled the lever for the big O, stepped out of that same voting booth with their hand-out looking for a pay-out. Where as the vast majority of the people who voted for the other guy, simply tried to stem the tide. Most of the same people who chant "yes we can", look for government as a solution to their problems. It's not their fault, they just don't know any better. Do you really think that those "yes we can" people will want to roll up their sleeves, and create, innovate, and put forth anything that will have an impact on our current economic crisis? Really, do you?

I think that this government really needs to be aware of who really drives this economic machine, and stop fing with it, and being hostile to it.

Somewhere there is a community missing it's organizer. Interestingly ironic, yes it is.
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Old 03-03-2009, 08:50 PM   #37
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Re: How Low Can It Go?

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So you don't have any IRA's?

Of course I do and they lost nearly 60% of their value. Why do you ask?
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Old 03-03-2009, 08:51 PM   #38
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Re: How Low Can It Go?

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The premise of your argument is that taxes make people less rich which is bad for our economy. My question is at what threshold of taxation do we reach an equilibrium? Not too much taxes to be harmful to our economy and not too little to be beneficial to our economy?
I think I'd be in quite high demand if I could answer that question. My asssertion is that we collectively pay too much in taxes. We pay an enorm ous amount in taxes as a nation and in the middle of a recession taking money out of the private sector and putting it into gov't is about the worse thing I can think of. Consumers drive our economy. Consumers buy products from our companies. Investors invest in companies. This all makes companies more successful. They hire more people. More people spend. Rinse/repeat. It all requires that people, rich and poor, have money and feel confident to spend it. The market tanking because investors are paniced by gov't policies is bad. It is a bad indicator of true economic stability but it quite obviously affects people's condidence nonetheless.

Somehow I doubt there is a real equilibrium. It is probably constantly changing. Just another argument why the gov't shouldn't be actively trying to manipulate markets. They can't react nearly fast enough. MOst of the "stimulus" money really won't get into the market until far past the point we really need it. Which is two days after 4 months ago.
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Old 03-03-2009, 09:02 PM   #39
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Re: How Low Can It Go?

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djnemo65, I may not be as profound as some of our esteemed members of this fine community. But, when the largest global domino (the U.S.) has a it's economy in the toliet. All of the other little dominoes fall suit.

When our president, and his supporters are openly hostile to people of higher means, what would you expect the economy to do?

The vast majority of the people who pulled the lever for the big O, stepped out of that same voting booth with their hand-out looking for a pay-out. Where as the vast majority of the people who voted for the other guy, simply tried to stem the tide. Most of the same people who chant "yes we can", look for government as a solution to their problems. It's not their fault, they just don't know any better. Do you really think that those "yes we can" people will want to roll up their sleeves, and create, innovate, and put forth anything that will have an impact on our current economic crisis? Really, do you?

I think that this government really needs to be aware of who really drives this economic machine, and stop fing with it, and being hostile to it.

Somewhere there is a community missing it's organizer. Interestingly ironic, yes it is.
If you're going to tout the virtues of knowing better it might behoove you to heed your own advice.
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Old 03-03-2009, 09:03 PM   #40
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Re: How Low Can It Go?

As soon as we begin to blame the President of the United States for what is happening to the stock market, you can pretty much call the market's behavior irrational. The president of the United States has very little control over the economy, big stimulus bills or otherwise.

The fact that people are blaming Obama shows that too many have no idea what's driving the downturn, which means prices have been driven down too far.

When lending turns around this market will bounce very high. Don't worry about whether you're getting in on the ground floor, just get in before you miss it.
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Old 03-03-2009, 09:05 PM   #41
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Re: How Low Can It Go?

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As soon as we begin to blame the President of the United States for what is happening to the stock market, you can pretty much call the market's behavior irrational. The president of the United States has very little control over the economy, big stimulus bills or otherwise.

The fact that people are blaming Obama shows that too many have no idea what's driving the downturn, which means prices have been driven down too far.

When lending turns around this market will bounce very high. Don't worry about whether you're getting in on the ground floor, just get in before you miss it.
Agreed. But people ARE panicing in the stock market and many are doing so because of O' policies. I am not saying the policies do matter just that they are affecting people. O seems not to care.
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Old 03-03-2009, 09:21 PM   #42
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Re: How Low Can It Go?

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I think I'd be in quite high demand if I could answer that question. My asssertion is that we collectively pay too much in taxes. We pay an enorm ous amount in taxes as a nation and in the middle of a recession taking money out of the private sector and putting it into gov't is about the worse thing I can think of. Consumers drive our economy. Consumers buy products from our companies. Investors invest in companies. This all makes companies more successful. They hire more people. More people spend. Rinse/repeat. It all requires that people, rich and poor, have money and feel confident to spend it. The market tanking because investors are paniced by gov't policies is bad. It is a bad indicator of true economic stability but it quite obviously affects people's condidence nonetheless.

Somehow I doubt there is a real equilibrium. It is probably constantly changing. Just another argument why the gov't shouldn't be actively trying to manipulate markets. They can't react nearly fast enough. MOst of the "stimulus" money really won't get into the market until far past the point we really need it. Which is two days after 4 months ago.
My question is an invalid question, it was intended merely to highlight how indefensible your premise is from logical standpoint.

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The premise of your argument is that taxes make people less rich which is bad for our economy. My question is at what threshold of taxation do we reach an equilibrium? Not too much taxes to be harmful to our economy and not too little to be beneficial to our economy?
Why would we need to find an equilibrium given that too little taxation benefits our economy?
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Old 03-03-2009, 09:23 PM   #43
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Re: How Low Can It Go?

Okay. So far a lively debate but very few specific predictions. Those with balls are:

jsarno: 6000
djnemo65 5500
redskinjim: 5000
Saden1: 5000 (not out of the question)
FRPLG 4900
Slingin Sammy 33 4800
Buster: 3500
70Chip: 3499
CRedskinsRule: 0
That Guy: Less than 0 (possibly)

Of course the winner gets to inherit my Tom Tupa avatar.
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Last edited by 70Chip; 03-03-2009 at 10:42 PM.
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Old 03-03-2009, 09:30 PM   #44
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Re: How Low Can It Go?

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My question is an invalid question, it was intended merely to highlight how indefensible your premise is from logical standpoint.



Why would we need to find an equilibrium given that too little taxation benefits our economy?
I guess I am thoroughly confused by what you are trying to say then.

Indefensible? That's quite silly. It seems your point is that taxes at any level are fine. Why don't we just hand all of our money over to the gov't then? Would that be fine for our economy?
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Old 03-03-2009, 09:40 PM   #45
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Re: How Low Can It Go?

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I guess I am thoroughly confused by what you are trying to say then.

Indefensible? That's quite silly. It seems your point is that taxes at any level are fine. Why don't we just hand all of our money over to the gov't then? Would that be fine for our economy?
The difference between you and I is that I never took the position that a) too much taxes are good for the economy and b) the impact of increasing the tax rate from 35% to 39% is always harmful.
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