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Old 04-10-2009, 02:05 PM   #46
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
Given more time I am sure we can upstage WWII...I have full confidence in the stupidity of mankind.

This is a fantastic read from the evil NSA no less.
Who gives a hoot about some article? The Japanese themselves state in their Peace Museum in Hiroshima the reason that we dropped the bomb. It's there for everyone to see. It's written in several different languages. Who's trying to upstage who? Are you saying the Japanese are not being honest to the whole world about their own history as far as the bomb is concerned?

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Old 04-10-2009, 03:04 PM   #47
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly View Post
Who gives a hoot about some article? The Japanese themselves state in there Peace Museum in Hiroshima the reason that we dropped the bomb. It's there for everyone to see. It's written in several different languages. Who's trying to upstage who? Are you saying the Japanese are not being honest to the whole world about their own history as far as the bomb is concerned?
I care about some article and I would care about your claims if they were backed up with citations. At this point, an unclassified document written by an anonymous author at the NSA has more credibility than you.
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Old 04-10-2009, 03:05 PM   #48
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly View Post
We did take Okinawa and it was brutal.
Correction made, my error. Thx.
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Old 04-10-2009, 03:14 PM   #49
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

Paul Wolfowitz wrote a great article back in the late 90's about this, essentially arguing that everyone is at an equilibrium point right now, because people understand the responsibility of having nuclear weapons. The problem comes if/when terrorists get a hold of them with the plans to use them. It doesn't matter if all countries have a nuclear program, as long as nuclear weapons are HIGHLY regulated and always accounted for, the threat of nuclear war will remain just a threat. As soon as we start having weapons that are developed and unaccounted for, then we have a major political problem.
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Old 04-10-2009, 03:18 PM   #50
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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I care about some article and I would care about your claims if they were backed up with citations. At this point, an unclassified document written by an anonymous author at the NSA has more credibility than you.
Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There you go. My citation is made of concrete and is visited by thousands of people every year. I've been there and I read why we dropped the bomb according to the Japanese. Anonymous authors only have authority in your mind.
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Old 04-10-2009, 03:24 PM   #51
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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- Yes I read it.
- I don't believe NSA has an offical position on this matter. If they did, I'm sure it would be that the U.S. dropped the bombs to minimize casualties and obtain a Japanese surrender.
- It would be intresting to know the name of the author to find out background info on him/her and read other info published by him/her.
- The author assumes how "U.S. officials" interpreted Suzuki's statement (U.S. officials, angered by the tone of Suzuki's statement and obviously seeing it as another typical example of the fanatical Banzai and Kamikaze spirit decided on stern measures....)and makes the reach that the possible mis-interpretation of Suzuki's statement was the major factor in the decision to drop the first A-bomb.
- The paragraph about the "bird colonel" is quite a reach also. The author must've been watching one too many war movies.

Let's not forget who the aggressor was in the pacific theater of WWII. If the Japanese had the A-bomb before us, what do you think would've happened? Also consider the atrocities they committed on the people of China, Korea, the Phillippines, not to mention U.S. POWs.
Estimates of U.S. casualties alone in invading Kyushu, the southern-most Japanese island were 63,000. This doesn't include Japanese casualties which would be at least the same. How many lives on both sides were lost taking Okinawa? How many would've been lost attacking the mainland?
I don't think the author assume anything. I think my next read will be The Fall of Japan by William Craig. Again, the bird colonel is a symbolic figure. The pressure on subordinates by upper management is real as evident by the whole Iraq WMD fiasco.
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Old 04-10-2009, 03:33 PM   #52
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There you go. My citation is made of concrete and is visited by thousands of people every year. I've been there and I read why we dropped the bomb according to the Japanese. Anonymous authors only have authority in your mind.
Very clever but I'm inquiring as to your claim that they claim "[the reason why we dropped the bomb] was to reduce our casualties and to end the war." An anonymous NSA author still have more creditability but that might be due to your past transgressions against sensibility. Let's just say I am doubtful when it comes to everything.

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Old 04-10-2009, 03:42 PM   #53
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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I don't think the author assume anything. I think my next read will be The Fall of Japan by William Craig. Again, the bird colonel is a symbolic figure. The pressure on subordinates by upper management is real as evident by the whole Iraq WMD fiasco.
I completely understand the symbolism of the "bird colonel", however this is the extreme "Rod Steiger in Mars Attacks" version of what could've happened. The more likely scenario is that the "bird colonel" would have taken all the information he was given and passed it along to his superiors for fear of getting reprimanded for not providing everything he had if something came out later.

Just a nit-picking point, and maybe this is something that they did "back in the day", or it's just me, but I've never heard anyone in the military, intel community, or associated with military call an O-6 a "bird colonel". The term used is "full-bird colonel" or "full-bird".

The Libby-Valerie Plame association doesn't hold any water with me in this discussion. As usual, we agree to disagree.
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Old 04-10-2009, 04:01 PM   #54
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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Very clever but I'm inquiring as to your claim that they claim "[the reason why we dropped the bomb] was to reduce our casualties and to end the war." An anonymous NSA author still have more creditability but might be due to your past transgressions against sensibility. Let's just say I am doubtful when it comes to everything.
My claim?

I don't have anything to prove to you, as if you're an authority on anything.

I'll bet that I'm not the only former serviceman on this blog who has been to that museum. Thousands of people have been there. If you don't believe me then get a plane ticket and fly there yourself.

Let me make it easy for you. When you first walk into the museum there will be a huge map of old Hiroshima in a circle with a big red ball over top of it. The big red ball is to show how far up the bomb exploded since it was an airburst weapon. Beyond that display you'll see stairs leading to the hall where they have hands and feet in jars. Before you go up the stairs there is a plague that states why we dropped the bomb. It's right next to a globe where they show which countries have nuclear weapons, how many, and what type they are.
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Old 04-10-2009, 04:13 PM   #55
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

I believe this is a virtual shot of what Trample is speaking of.
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Old 04-10-2009, 04:24 PM   #56
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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I believe this is a virtual shot of what Trample is speaking of.
Is that what you're speaking of TTE?
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Old 04-10-2009, 04:32 PM   #57
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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I believe this is a virtual shot of what Trample is speaking of.
They've changed things around a bit. When I was there last they made no mention of Pearl Harbor, only that we were at war. Nor did they mention the God awful things they did to the Chinese, Koreans, and everyone else they got their hands on. I doubt they'll put that in their museum or change their school books either.

This museum is to persuade other nations to get rid of nuclear weapons. What the Japanese don't realize is the destructive power that the big table shows only makes tin pot despots salivate.

I don't think it's important anymore. Most of the people who posted on this thread have some common sense and I've more important things to do then to bang heads with Saden all day long.
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Old 04-10-2009, 04:32 PM   #58
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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I don't have anything to prove to you, as if you're an authority on anything.

You're absolutely right, you have nothing to prove to me and I am free to be skeptical. Like you I don't claim to be the authority on anything.

Since we are being honest this is the language of children. Let's stay focused.
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Old 04-10-2009, 04:39 PM   #59
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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Is that what you're speaking of TTE?
Yes it is. That is the museum. Go fly there and take a look around. You'll like it because they agree with you about nuclear weapons. Oh, watch out for the Japanese Guardian Angels. They don't like Americans, regardless of race.
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Old 04-11-2009, 12:05 AM   #60
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

Brother saden1, don't get the whole "I'm glade as hell" thing all twisted. You see, like brother trample, I too have spent time over seas in the far East (Okinawa, and a little time in main land Japan). I have studied the Japanese culture and their people.

I guess that I don't have remind you that Japan dragged our reluctant asses into war with them when they attacked us at Pearl. You see before we were attacked, we were asked by our friends in Europe to save their beacon, because they were getting the crap kicked out of them by those same bad guys. Our so called political heros were too busy wringing their hands over the thought of going to war, and dealing with the menace of Japan, Germany, and Italy. These countries at the time were playing a game of world domination and genocide.

I also have read plenty of novels that cronicle our involvement in WWII. These novels are military, so you would probably not be interested. But, if you would ever like to get a different perspective, you should check some out. And when you do, you will learn how that those same people that started our involvement were vicious, cruel, and merciless, and yes racist killers.

The Japanese people were led by their Emperor, and to surrender was to disgarce him. They were ingrained that surrender is not an option. These people saden1 fought to the last man, and when all was hopeless they would either committ suicide, or bonzi charge your ass. That is why our casaulty rate was so high when we would "island hop" toward the main land of Japan. So don't misunderstand that the A-bomb really saved lives. And yes as crazy as that may sound to you. Because if we had done a main land invasion, the human cost would have been much higher. And trust me when I say this, but a land invasion would have pretty much destroyed much of Japan itself, and it would have taken far longer to rebuild Japan. It's a pretty safe bet that Japan would not have been able to rebuild to the Japan that we know of Japan today.

And in closing, you saden1 should really stop throwing fire bomb threads like this. All it does is piss one another off. It is obvious that no one will ever change your way of thinking clearly. I engage you from time to time because you challenge me, and I like that. But to others bro, I think your act is getting old. I'm sure that your professor is very proud of what you have become.
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