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Old 04-10-2009, 03:42 PM   #61
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
I don't think the author assume anything. I think my next read will be The Fall of Japan by William Craig. Again, the bird colonel is a symbolic figure. The pressure on subordinates by upper management is real as evident by the whole Iraq WMD fiasco.
I completely understand the symbolism of the "bird colonel", however this is the extreme "Rod Steiger in Mars Attacks" version of what could've happened. The more likely scenario is that the "bird colonel" would have taken all the information he was given and passed it along to his superiors for fear of getting reprimanded for not providing everything he had if something came out later.

Just a nit-picking point, and maybe this is something that they did "back in the day", or it's just me, but I've never heard anyone in the military, intel community, or associated with military call an O-6 a "bird colonel". The term used is "full-bird colonel" or "full-bird".

The Libby-Valerie Plame association doesn't hold any water with me in this discussion. As usual, we agree to disagree.
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Old 04-10-2009, 04:01 PM   #62
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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Very clever but I'm inquiring as to your claim that they claim "[the reason why we dropped the bomb] was to reduce our casualties and to end the war." An anonymous NSA author still have more creditability but might be due to your past transgressions against sensibility. Let's just say I am doubtful when it comes to everything.
My claim?

I don't have anything to prove to you, as if you're an authority on anything.

I'll bet that I'm not the only former serviceman on this blog who has been to that museum. Thousands of people have been there. If you don't believe me then get a plane ticket and fly there yourself.

Let me make it easy for you. When you first walk into the museum there will be a huge map of old Hiroshima in a circle with a big red ball over top of it. The big red ball is to show how far up the bomb exploded since it was an airburst weapon. Beyond that display you'll see stairs leading to the hall where they have hands and feet in jars. Before you go up the stairs there is a plague that states why we dropped the bomb. It's right next to a globe where they show which countries have nuclear weapons, how many, and what type they are.
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Old 04-10-2009, 04:13 PM   #63
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

I believe this is a virtual shot of what Trample is speaking of.
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Old 04-10-2009, 04:24 PM   #64
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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I believe this is a virtual shot of what Trample is speaking of.
Is that what you're speaking of TTE?
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Old 04-10-2009, 04:32 PM   #65
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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I believe this is a virtual shot of what Trample is speaking of.
They've changed things around a bit. When I was there last they made no mention of Pearl Harbor, only that we were at war. Nor did they mention the God awful things they did to the Chinese, Koreans, and everyone else they got their hands on. I doubt they'll put that in their museum or change their school books either.

This museum is to persuade other nations to get rid of nuclear weapons. What the Japanese don't realize is the destructive power that the big table shows only makes tin pot despots salivate.

I don't think it's important anymore. Most of the people who posted on this thread have some common sense and I've more important things to do then to bang heads with Saden all day long.
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Old 04-10-2009, 04:32 PM   #66
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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I don't have anything to prove to you, as if you're an authority on anything.

You're absolutely right, you have nothing to prove to me and I am free to be skeptical. Like you I don't claim to be the authority on anything.

Since we are being honest this is the language of children. Let's stay focused.
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Old 04-10-2009, 04:39 PM   #67
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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Is that what you're speaking of TTE?
Yes it is. That is the museum. Go fly there and take a look around. You'll like it because they agree with you about nuclear weapons. Oh, watch out for the Japanese Guardian Angels. They don't like Americans, regardless of race.
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Old 04-11-2009, 12:05 AM   #68
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

Brother saden1, don't get the whole "I'm glade as hell" thing all twisted. You see, like brother trample, I too have spent time over seas in the far East (Okinawa, and a little time in main land Japan). I have studied the Japanese culture and their people.

I guess that I don't have remind you that Japan dragged our reluctant asses into war with them when they attacked us at Pearl. You see before we were attacked, we were asked by our friends in Europe to save their beacon, because they were getting the crap kicked out of them by those same bad guys. Our so called political heros were too busy wringing their hands over the thought of going to war, and dealing with the menace of Japan, Germany, and Italy. These countries at the time were playing a game of world domination and genocide.

I also have read plenty of novels that cronicle our involvement in WWII. These novels are military, so you would probably not be interested. But, if you would ever like to get a different perspective, you should check some out. And when you do, you will learn how that those same people that started our involvement were vicious, cruel, and merciless, and yes racist killers.

The Japanese people were led by their Emperor, and to surrender was to disgarce him. They were ingrained that surrender is not an option. These people saden1 fought to the last man, and when all was hopeless they would either committ suicide, or bonzi charge your ass. That is why our casaulty rate was so high when we would "island hop" toward the main land of Japan. So don't misunderstand that the A-bomb really saved lives. And yes as crazy as that may sound to you. Because if we had done a main land invasion, the human cost would have been much higher. And trust me when I say this, but a land invasion would have pretty much destroyed much of Japan itself, and it would have taken far longer to rebuild Japan. It's a pretty safe bet that Japan would not have been able to rebuild to the Japan that we know of Japan today.

And in closing, you saden1 should really stop throwing fire bomb threads like this. All it does is piss one another off. It is obvious that no one will ever change your way of thinking clearly. I engage you from time to time because you challenge me, and I like that. But to others bro, I think your act is getting old. I'm sure that your professor is very proud of what you have become.
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Old 04-11-2009, 08:23 AM   #69
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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Originally Posted by 4mrusmc View Post
Brother saden1, don't get the whole "I'm glade as hell" thing all twisted. You see, like brother trample, I too have spent time over seas in the far East (Okinawa, and a little time in main land Japan). I have studied the Japanese culture and their people.

I guess that I don't have remind you that Japan dragged our reluctant asses into war with them when they attacked us at Pearl. You see before we were attacked, we were asked by our friends in Europe to save their beacon, because they were getting the crap kicked out of them by those same bad guys. Our so called political heros were too busy wringing their hands over the thought of going to war, and dealing with the menace of Japan, Germany, and Italy. These countries at the time were playing a game of world domination and genocide.

I also have read plenty of novels that cronicle our involvement in WWII. These novels are military, so you would probably not be interested. But, if you would ever like to get a different perspective, you should check some out. And when you do, you will learn how that those same people that started our involvement were vicious, cruel, and merciless, and yes racist killers.

The Japanese people were led by their Emperor, and to surrender was to disgarce him. They were ingrained that surrender is not an option. These people saden1 fought to the last man, and when all was hopeless they would either committ suicide, or bonzi charge your ***. That is why our casaulty rate was so high when we would "island hop" toward the main land of Japan. So don't misunderstand that the A-bomb really saved lives. And yes as crazy as that may sound to you. Because if we had done a main land invasion, the human cost would have been much higher. And trust me when I say this, but a land invasion would have pretty much destroyed much of Japan itself, and it would have taken far longer to rebuild Japan. It's a pretty safe bet that Japan would not have been able to rebuild to the Japan that we know of Japan today.

And in closing, you saden1 should really stop throwing fire bomb threads like this. All it does is piss one another off. It is obvious that no one will ever change your way of thinking clearly. I engage you from time to time because you challenge me, and I like that. But to others bro, I think your act is getting old. I'm sure that your professor is very proud of what you have become.
Very good post.

I do disagree about the rebuilding statement. Germany (Dresden specifically) was demolished in many ways, but was rebuilt and thrives. I have no doubt that if we had firebombed Japan, we would have been there for the re-building as well.

I also think there was a huge political aspect to the bombings, warning Russia off at the time, and if we had not done that, history most certainly would have written a different story.

If I remember right in Roman history, after a series of brutal Carthaginian wars, they salted the earth. This was their final act to say they were not gonna fight the same fight anymore. I have always looked at Hiroshima/Nagasaki in that light. Americans had expended a lot of blood and toil for Europe and Asia's fights, and the American President and people were fed up and wanted to make a huge statement to the effect - If you want to keep fighting, we are going to go postal on you a**.
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Old 04-11-2009, 09:10 AM   #70
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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Would you be willing to give up America's nuclear arsenal in exchange for a nuclear weapons free world? Is this something worth striving for?
I say keep the biggest stick especially since you're one of the few that are least likely to use it...nowadays. Getting rid of nukes just means someone somewhere will develop a different destructive technology that will eventually spread around until a new equilibrium of force deterrent is established.
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Old 04-11-2009, 12:31 PM   #71
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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Very good post.

I do disagree about the rebuilding statement. Germany (Dresden specifically) was demolished in many ways, but was rebuilt and thrives. I have no doubt that if we had firebombed Japan, we would have been there for the re-building as well.

I also think there was a huge political aspect to the bombings, warning Russia off at the time, and if we had not done that, history most certainly would have written a different story.

If I remember right in Roman history, after a series of brutal Carthaginian wars, they salted the earth. This was their final act to say they were not gonna fight the same fight anymore. I have always looked at Hiroshima/Nagasaki in that light. Americans had expended a lot of blood and toil for Europe and Asia's fights, and the American President and people were fed up and wanted to make a huge statement to the effect - If you want to keep fighting, we are going to go postal on you a**.
We firebombed Tokyo and rebuilt it. It is thought by many that the firebombings were far more destructive than the A-bombs.

Bombing of Tokyo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Russians were huge in ending the war in Japan. If the Japanese had been allowed to evacuate their armies in Manchuria they would've been able to hold out for another six months to a year, A-bomb or not.

The Soviet Army Offensive: Manchuria, 1945

I disagree with the Peace Museum's revamped explanation of some of the reasons that we used the bomb. If we had the bomb in 1943 we would have used it on Germany. We had no problem firebombing them and snuffing out civilians who lived in their industrial cities. Since they manned those factories they might as well have been targets too. We were de facto at war with the Germans before they declared war on us anyway.

Only Italy escaped the massive firebombings because we didn't want to destroy the ancient history of the Western world. Besides the Italians had stopped fighting for the most part and in the end turned on the Germans and El Deuce.

I agree with you. Pay back is a MOFO and all is fair in love in war. There is one thing that the Americans did do in WWII that no one can dispute, win.

I would bet my bottom dollar that more countries in the future will aquire nuclear weapons than give them up. Many countries are nuclear capable already, most notably Germany, Japan, and Canada. I think there are a few Latin American countries that could build the bomb too, Brazil and Argentina if I'm not mistaken.

The question that this thread asks if irrelevant. If the people in all nations decided to ban nuclear weapons it still wouldn't matter. If the governments and military establishments want them, they'll keep them.

Anyone who believes the Russians or the Chinese will ever give up nuclear weapons needs to have their head examined.
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Old 04-11-2009, 01:28 PM   #72
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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Originally Posted by 4mrusmc View Post
Brother saden1, don't get the whole "I'm glade as hell" thing all twisted. You see, like brother trample, I too have spent time over seas in the far East (Okinawa, and a little time in main land Japan). I have studied the Japanese culture and their people.

I guess that I don't have remind you that Japan dragged our reluctant asses into war with them when they attacked us at Pearl. You see before we were attacked, we were asked by our friends in Europe to save their beacon, because they were getting the crap kicked out of them by those same bad guys. Our so called political heros were too busy wringing their hands over the thought of going to war, and dealing with the menace of Japan, Germany, and Italy. These countries at the time were playing a game of world domination and genocide.

I also have read plenty of novels that cronicle our involvement in WWII. These novels are military, so you would probably not be interested. But, if you would ever like to get a different perspective, you should check some out. And when you do, you will learn how that those same people that started our involvement were vicious, cruel, and merciless, and yes racist killers.

The Japanese people were led by their Emperor, and to surrender was to disgarce him. They were ingrained that surrender is not an option. These people saden1 fought to the last man, and when all was hopeless they would either committ suicide, or bonzi charge your ass. That is why our casaulty rate was so high when we would "island hop" toward the main land of Japan. So don't misunderstand that the A-bomb really saved lives. And yes as crazy as that may sound to you. Because if we had done a main land invasion, the human cost would have been much higher. And trust me when I say this, but a land invasion would have pretty much destroyed much of Japan itself, and it would have taken far longer to rebuild Japan. It's a pretty safe bet that Japan would not have been able to rebuild to the Japan that we know of Japan today.

And in closing, you saden1 should really stop throwing fire bomb threads like this. All it does is piss one another off. It is obvious that no one will ever change your way of thinking clearly. I engage you from time to time because you challenge me, and I like that. But to others bro, I think your act is getting old. I'm sure that your professor is very proud of what you have become.
I wasn't planning on responding but the heck with it, here goes:

Good Reverend 4mrusmc, I asked a simple and straightforward question that's relevant to current events. You're welcome to put your two cents in but your not welcomed to ask a question and then pretend to be a victim when it's answered. If you stick your foot in your mouth that's not my fault. I didn't doooo it! That goes for homeboy TTE but I think he might actually have a legitimate excuse, he has foot fetish. Isn't that so TTE? There's another possibility, bad choice of words on your part and responding on my part.

You read military novels? Me too, my favorits are Mother Night, Catch-22, and Slaughterhouse Five. I also play WWII video games now and then. You?

I have learned quite a bit about the Japanse and WWII in this thread. I thank you sir, very much. I'm still not sure what triggered the need for this history lesson though. Was my historical ignorance that obvious in my posts? I'm a confused sheep who doesn't know what you're on about.

I'm glad you feel challenged now and then, hopefully you'll afford others the ability to speak for themselves. My professor would agree that it's the right and honorable thing to do.


Remember folks, it's much harder to be nice than it is to be an asshole.
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Old 04-11-2009, 01:37 PM   #73
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

Also, know that in WWII it was a race to the A-bomb. Most of the countries knew that there was a race to get this technology, and who ever got it first and use it first was the winner. It was either us or them. And again I'm glad as hell that it was us first.

I'm sure that if anyone could interview any of the guys that were floating on naval ships that were on their way to the main land Japan for the land invasion would say the same thing too.

When they say that war is hell, it's because it is. I say that except for ending slavery, Facism, Nazism, Communism, and Terrorism war has never solved anything. I wore the uniform of the United States Marine Corps for four years, and fought in a war, so I too have seen it's "hell" upclose and in-person. So I feel a personal touch with topics like this, and I try to convey that with people should they chose to listen.

Because of brave, and couragous people who chose to go after the A-bomb technology like they did. It know doubt changed the face of the world we live today. It also brought an end to WWII, and saved American lives who would have been snuffed-out with a land invasion. Those same lives saved are the reason some of us are here today. As the result of us conquering over evil, it has sometimes unfortunately allowed us the privilege to debate such things out in the open or in saden1s' classroom.

But, to answer the threads' original questions. In the fantasiful world that some would want us to live in, sure it would be great if we didn't have to fight wars and use terrible weapons like the A-bomb. But, being that this world is full of bad guys doing bad guy things, it kind of renders the second question moot. I think it is wishful and hopeful thinking. As they say about wish in one hand and hope in the other.....
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Old 04-11-2009, 02:06 PM   #74
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Re: Nuclear Weapons

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I wasn't planning on responding but the heck with it, here goes:

Good Reverend 4mrusmc, I asked a simple and straightforward question that's relevant to current events. You're welcome to put your two cents in but your not welcomed to ask a question and then pretend to be a victim when it's answered. If you stick your foot in your mouth that's not my fault. I didn't doooo it! That goes for homeboy TTE but I think he might actually have a legitimate excuse, he has foot fetish. Isn't that so TTE? There's another possibility, bad choice of words on your part and responding on my part.

You read military novels? Me too, my favorits are Mother Night, Catch-22, and Slaughterhouse Five. I also play WWII video games now and then. You?

I have learned quite a bit about the Japanse and WWII in this thread. I thank you sir, very much. I'm still not sure what triggered the need for this history lesson though. Was my historical ignorance that obvious in my posts? I'm a confused sheep who doesn't know what you're on about.

I'm glad you feel challenged now and then, hopefully you'll afford others the ability to speak for themselves. My professor would agree that it's the right and honorable thing to do.


Remember folks, it's much harder to be nice than it is to be an asshole.
Hey saden1 I'll respond to your last statement now, but not with bad words like you chose to use. It feels great to be nice, and do nice things in a nice world. But, you know what my friend, this world is not as nice as you would like to try to make it. All I was doing was to try to justify us using the A-bomb when we did, and why. Your simple and straight forword question as it relates to this fantasiful thread, is just that, fantasiful. You need to wise up and live in the real world, and take those rose colored glasses off.

I have another question for you, and I ask this with all do respect, but how old are you? Maybe I'm just and old fart type that can't quite communicate with you the way expect, or deserve.
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