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Old 08-01-2009, 11:24 PM   #166
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Re: the new health care?

The thing that scares the hell out of me is a scene like this.


The most relevant part starts around 1:25 on the timecode. If you want to know what they're saying click on the video to go to YouTube and turn on Close Captioning. That will give you the subtitles in english.

*Spoilers*
A little context for this scene. A group of performers has put on a play at a local church in Montreal detailing the passion. Unfortunately church officials don't like how the story is depicted by the actors despite the level of success that play has been able to achieve. Eventually security officers show up to stop the performance, which in the scene is at the crucifixion station with the actor portraying Jesus technically tied to the cross.

The effort to break up the play causes a melee which ends in the cross being knocked over with the main character David falling face first on the ground while being attached to the cross. The actors go to the hospital only to be told to wait in an extremely long line. David ends up thinking he's well enough to leave only to die a few hours later.
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Old 08-02-2009, 03:22 PM   #167
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Re: the new health care?

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Originally Posted by GTripp0012 View Post
I agree that the selfishness vs. self-lessness debate has no relevance to healthcare reform, but that just makes me question why you brought it up in the first place. Seems to me that Joe was merely defending himself against a loaded term.
The topic of the selfish nature of man was brought up to highlight that without government mandate some among us would not be interested in paying for UHC. Joe doesn't need to defend himself, and he isn't. He is merely expressing his view on the nature of man.



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Originally Posted by GTripp0012 View Post
which you've here defined in a clear, but ultimately in a manner that is academically and grammatically unsubstantiated. In other words: fascinating opinion, man! The human mind can do craaazy things!

Fun simile though.
Academically and grammatically unsubstantiated? Do you speak from experience?

Opinion? You give me far too much credit.

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Originally Posted by GTripp0012 View Post
Doesn't this imply that:

1) All forms of UHC promote general welfare,
2) A healthcare program that does not promote the general welfare is not UHC,

therefore

3) UHC, as you use it, is a loaded term aimed at suggesting what healthcare reform should accomplish, and not an actual descriptive term of any particular individual healthcare bill or act.
What an abominable argument. No it does not imply "all forms of UHC promote general welfare." Did you not read my hyperbole reference (i.e a UHC program that promotes eugenics)? UHC is a well defined, information on what it's suppose to be and do is readily available.

Quote:
I think we can agree that by your logic, the Obama bill is not to be considered UHC, and also that we've yet to hear a realistic idea aimed at implementing UHC in the United States. For all you or I know, your definition of UHC in the US may very well be impossible.
No, we don't agree at all. By my logic, "Obama's bill" is UHC and would pass a constitutional challenge. Note that certain provisions of the bill can be challenged but since we don't have a final bill we can not asses which provisions can be successfully challenged. I suspect the final bill will be solid.

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Old 08-02-2009, 05:14 PM   #168
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Re: the new health care?

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...
If you would be so patient with this idiot he will ... take on your challenge of coming up with suggestions for healtcare reform.
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Funny thing Saden, is that while your rhetorical returns are fast and furious and reflect a man extremely capable parsing rhetorical arguments; these healthcare discussions fail to receive any of your promised ideas or dialogue. No need for parsing here. Feel free to discuss Healthcare Reform IDEAS though.
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Old 08-02-2009, 05:48 PM   #169
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Re: the new health care?

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Funny thing Saden, is that while your rhetorical returns are fast and furious and reflect a man extremely capable parsing rhetorical arguments; these healthcare discussions fail to receive any of your promised ideas or dialogue. No need for parsing here. Feel free to discuss Healthcare Reform IDEAS though.
I'm sorry that it takes time to formulate my own thoughts on a subject so broad as healthcare reform. Unlike congress and Obama I intend to take my sweet time and think things through. How is that for some rhetoric? And the amazing thing is I didn't put any time in into it.
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Old 08-02-2009, 06:19 PM   #170
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Re: the new health care?

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I'm sorry that it takes time to formulate my own thoughts on a subject so broad as healthcare reform. ... And the amazing thing is I didn't put any time in into it.
The interesting thing is how much time you put into pointing out rhetorical flaws, without spending time to think about the actual issue.
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Old 08-02-2009, 09:03 PM   #171
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Re: the new health care?

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What an abominable argument. No it does not imply "all forms of UHC promote general welfare." Did you not read my hyperbole reference (i.e a UHC program that promotes eugenics)? UHC is a well defined, information on what it's suppose to be and do is readily available.
Well, then I'm not seeing your loophole. If you are affirming that UHC is not debatable under a "promote general welfare statute", but you are denying that "UHC" necessarily implies that the general welfare is improved, you're making a direct contradiction.

The "readily-available information" on UHC does not necessary promote general welfare. Undoubtably, that would be the intent of pretty much any healthcare reform, but it's aims and goals are far less important than it's ways and means.

Unless I've completely missed your point, you are advocating health care reform that is both 1) universal, and 2) improves the general welfare. These things may very well be contradictory, under most standard definitions of the terms.
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Old 08-06-2009, 01:59 PM   #172
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Re: the new health care?

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Isn't it funny that now because they are having such a hrd time selling their Health Care Reform they have now decided to call it Health Insurance Reform. Now my area is getting hit by comercials making the Heath Insurance Industry the bad guys and they are attacking them. I guess its easier to try and sell health care reform that way instead of presenting the facts of the plan and letting it stand on its own.

Saden: Obama's plan is not UHC its a goverment plan to insure the uninsured. His ulitmate goal is UHC but he will lie and say that's not what he wants at all even though there are tapes of him saying that.
any proof?
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Old 08-06-2009, 11:53 PM   #173
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Re: the new health care?

i would argue with you. but im only allowed 1 post in any political thread otherwise i get spanked
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Old 08-07-2009, 10:16 AM   #174
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Re: the new health care?

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Saden stated "The topic of the selfish nature of man was brought up to highlight that without government mandate some among us would not be interested in paying for UHC. Joe doesn't need to defend himself, and he isn't. He is merely expressing his view on the nature of man."

In my case its not that I don't want to pay for health care I allready pay a good sum each month its the fact that the goverment will make it more expensive then it currently is. Once again look at the model they are basing their plan off in Mass. Prices have jumped higher then private ins. but why look at the perfect example when we have Obama telling us this will not happen. We should just take his numbers as fact because he also said the stimulas would create jobs and unemployment would stay under 8.5%.
Analysis: Recession's job losses
may take years to recover



cant build Rome in a day. give the man some time
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Old 08-07-2009, 12:56 PM   #175
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Re: the new health care?

Great read here:

Peggy Noonan: ‘You Are Terrifying Us’ - WSJ.com
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Old 08-07-2009, 02:10 PM   #176
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Re: the new health care?

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Thanks that was a good read. I just cannot believe how the Dems have gone so low with all the name calling of these people showing up at town hall meetings. Last time I looked they where US citizens and had the right of free speech. Maybe now free speech is only if your agree with Obama.
Come on FD, you know that any regular citizen who actually stands up to Lord Obama and the Dems simply cannot be for real. It's got to be "well-dressed" stand-ins mobilized by the RNC.

That's why the Dems have instructed union heads to descend on these "fake" town hall meetings to straighten people out. Better not preach any "mis-information" on health care or you'll get flagged by the White House.
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Old 08-09-2009, 11:27 PM   #177
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Re: the new health care?

I never could have imagined that "right wing extremist" were capable of making me smile. For now this is the closest thing we have to political balance until the next set of elections in 2010. I mean I love Obama and a lot of the things he's doing but a democratic president with a democratic majority in the house and the senate scares the daylight out of me. And for the record the opposite doesn't make me sleep well at night either.

Keep up the protest crazy people

In the meantime Obama would probably do well to learn from his predecessor as I think a main reason people really started to turn on Bush was because he just started doing his own thing and as a result tuned out when it came to public opinion.
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Old 08-10-2009, 10:52 PM   #178
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Re: the new health care?

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I was wondering if any of you people on the left sent any of this information posted here to the Obama snitch line. This sounds like something that an high school principle might do to crack down on kids breaking the rules.
I ratted myself out with some of the info and links I posted here. I'm sure an IRS audit or some other Chicago-style thuggery is coming my way. Oh well, I'll just move to TX when it seceeds from the union.
I also wrote Glenn Nye and let him know I'd do everything I could to make sure he wouldn't be returning to DC in 2010 if he votes for this.
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Old 08-10-2009, 11:07 PM   #179
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Re: the new health care?

I was wondering about this, where are all the good liberal protectors of free speech and individual privacy (ACLU, etc.) that fought so hard against the "evil" Bush Administration's Patriot Act? I guess it's OK to fight for the rights of terrorists and those who would harm the U.S., but any conservative American citizens who have broken no laws and have legitimate disagreements with the current Administration, well the ACLU certainly won't stand up for them. They won't get in the way of Premier Obama and the Politburo shaping the country into a Worker's Paradise, good news for the anti-American Communist Lawyers Union.

From John Cornyn's letter to the President:
“I am not aware of any precedent for a president asking American citizens to report their fellow citizens to the White house for pure political speech that is deemed ‘fishy’ or otherwise inimical to the White House’s political interests,” the Texas senator wrote in a letter to Obama.
“By requesting that citizens send ‘fishy’ e-mails to the White House, it is inevitable that the names, e-mail addresses, IP addresses, and private speech of U.S. citizens will be reported … You should not be surprised that these actions taken by your White House staff raise the specter of a data collection system.”

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Old 08-11-2009, 02:56 PM   #180
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Re: the new health care?

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Not to change subject but where is the up roar from the left on Afganistan and the setting of time lines, goals and other things they demanded of Bush in Iraq. With the troop surge and the deaths rising we hear nothing.
Actually I think many on the left are upset with Obama about this, but they probably don't want to take shots at him when he's trying to destroy the health insurance industry. To them, government health care might even be more important than the war right now.

Bill Maher often talks about this and he hasn't been kind to Obama with the war issue.
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