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the new health care?

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Old 05-13-2009, 05:19 PM   #91
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Re: the new health care?

Obamaites can call me a naysayer if they please, but to me this statement is simply foolish:

"Our health care system is broken," Obama said. "We are not going to rest until we've delivered the kind of health care reform that's going to bring down costs for families, improve quality, affordability, accessibility for all Americans." Pelosi: House taking up health care by late July - Capitol Hill- msnbc.com

Sorry, you cannot decrease costs and increase quality of care and service. Do I hope I am wrong? Sure. Do I think this is a utopian statement that is either intentionally misleading or so incredibly naive as to be idiotic? Yes.

How does he intend to fund this pollyanish plan? Through a mix of tax increases and restrictions on current tax breaks. The biggest is repealling all or a portion of the tax-break for employer based health care payments. Essentially increasing premiums for this type of insurance (whether I am paying the insurer or the govt. or a combination thereof, the cost for insurance increases).

As FRPLG said, one of the fundamental problems is that people are looking for a Ferrari but seem to think they can get it at the cost of Hyundai. If we want top quality universal health care coverage, it comes with an incredible price. I don't see the vast majority of americans willing to pay that price. In fact, I don't see the vast majority of insured Americans (82% or approximately 202 million) willing to increase their costs for what will result in a benefit to minority of americans (18%, approximately 46 million) and a likely detriment to themselves (i.e. more costs or worse, more costs and worse benefits).

Is reform necessary, sure - every system needs should be reviewed to ensure or try for improvement. Is creating a universal national health care policy funded by tax increases and restrictions on benefits the answer? Not in my opinion. Rather, focus on cutting medical costs by revamping doctor oversight which will help lower litigation cost and thus lower malpractice rates and payouts. Find ways to lower the costs to become a medical professional. Possilby create a workman's comp type system for malpractice awards (just throwing that one out there off the cuff)- i.e. get rid of the traditional defenses to malpractice and require only that an injury occurred to get a payout, in return, the payouts will be set up like worker's comp. no puni's. These two thing may help cut down the cost of malpractice insurance which, in turn, cut down fees which will cut down costs to insurers.

With costs lowered, insurance becomes more affordable and fewer people are uninsured.

The emphasis, of course, is first to lower prices then find ways to cover the remainder.

Personally, I just don't see any of it happening. Far too many vested interests in the current system. Much will be talked about but I doubt any real change will come.
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Old 05-13-2009, 05:33 PM   #92
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Re: the new health care?

Your cynicism is dually noted. One thing I am fairly certain of is that the quality of care for 45 million people without coverage will improve. My employer still has the option of paying our HMO $$$ so I don't see how the quality of care will decrease. Maybe most employers decide to drop their HMO plans and rely on the government?

I guess having uninsured is good for the insured. Less competition is always good for the apex predator. Is anyone working a book titled "Universal Healthcare: Tragedy Waiting to Happen" yet?

Last edited by saden1; 05-13-2009 at 08:25 PM. Reason: I can't multi-task, sue me!
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Old 05-13-2009, 06:01 PM   #93
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Re: the new health care?

Very well thought out posts , Mr. Joe Redskin !!
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Old 05-13-2009, 08:34 PM   #94
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Re: the new health care?

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Originally Posted by JoeRedskin View Post
Obamaites can call me a naysayer if they please, but to me this statement is simply foolish:

"Our health care system is broken," Obama said. "We are not going to rest until we've delivered the kind of health care reform that's going to bring down costs for families, improve quality, affordability, accessibility for all Americans." Pelosi: House taking up health care by late July - Capitol Hill- msnbc.com

Sorry, you cannot decrease costs and increase quality of care and service. Do I hope I am wrong? Sure. Do I think this is a utopian statement that is either intentionally misleading or so incredibly naive as to be idiotic? Yes.

How does he intend to fund this pollyanish plan? Through a mix of tax increases and restrictions on current tax breaks. The biggest is repealling all or a portion of the tax-break for employer based health care payments. Essentially increasing premiums for this type of insurance (whether I am paying the insurer or the govt. or a combination thereof, the cost for insurance increases).

As FRPLG said, one of the fundamental problems is that people are looking for a Ferrari but seem to think they can get it at the cost of Hyundai. If we want top quality universal health care coverage, it comes with an incredible price. I don't see the vast majority of americans willing to pay that price. In fact, I don't see the vast majority of insured Americans (82% or approximately 202 million) willing to increase their costs for what will result in a benefit to minority of americans (18%, approximately 46 million) and a likely detriment to themselves (i.e. more costs or worse, more costs and worse benefits).

Is reform necessary, sure - every system needs should be reviewed to ensure or try for improvement. Is creating a universal national health care policy funded by tax increases and restrictions on benefits the answer? Not in my opinion. Rather, focus on cutting medical costs by revamping doctor oversight which will help lower litigation cost and thus lower malpractice rates and payouts. Find ways to lower the costs to become a medical professional. Possilby create a workman's comp type system for malpractice awards (just throwing that one out there off the cuff)- i.e. get rid of the traditional defenses to malpractice and require only that an injury occurred to get a payout, in return, the payouts will be set up like worker's comp. no puni's. These two thing may help cut down the cost of malpractice insurance which, in turn, cut down fees which will cut down costs to insurers.

With costs lowered, insurance becomes more affordable and fewer people are uninsured.

The emphasis, of course, is first to lower prices then find ways to cover the remainder.

Personally, I just don't see any of it happening. Far too many vested interests in the current system. Much will be talked about but I doubt any real change will come.
I can tell you that every single finance professional at my employer, the biggest Medicaid and under-insured provider in the state of Pennsylvania, agrees wholeheartedly with you.

From the chief financial officer down to the VP of finance down to the CFOs of the hospitals down to me as the manager of financial planning, we all think the same thing: wouldn't it be nice if Obama could get it done because it would mean a huge boost in funding for us. Quality would go up in the inner city hospitals who are currently underfunded, while quality would plummet at the suburban community hospitals in working class neighborhoods. And there are a lot more of them than there are of us.

It's an absurd pipe dream which shows how out of touch Obama can be with reality. He's a great leader, and strong on law and ethics, but his strength is not with financials. One look at the numbers tells you this: you can't cut the nation's overall healthcare bill without cutting quality. The only way he can make affordable healthcare happen is by having the rich subsidize it.

I named some areas in which expense savings could be realized earlier in this thread. But to accomplish what he wants (affordable healthcare for everyone), those savings would barely register as a drop in the bucket.

Someone just needs to do the math for him, and hopefully he'll come down to reality on this issue and get practical.
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Old 05-13-2009, 09:56 PM   #95
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Re: the new health care?

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
Your cynicism is dually noted. One thing I am fairly certain of is that the quality of care for 45 million people without coverage will improve. My employer still has the option of paying our HMO $$$ so I don't see how the quality of care will decrease. Maybe most employers decide to drop their HMO plans and rely on the government?

I guess having uninsured is good for the insured. Less competition is always good for the apex predator. Is anyone working a book titled "Universal Healthcare: Tragedy Waiting to Happen" yet?
1. With a national health plan, your employer's HMO coverage will eventually become more expensive. Initially, your quality of care will not decrease. At some point, as more and more people become "uninsured" and rely on the national plan, your employer's HMO become more expensive and he will eventually drop it leaving you with the national plan.

2. In general, and as I have pointed out above, having uninsured is NOT good for the rest of the insurance pool. Rather, having a large number of healthy young people paying for insurance lowers costs for all insureds.

3. I have not said that universal health care is a tragedy, rather, I suggest that to expect, in a nation of 250 million, high quality care at bargain basement prices is unrealistic. Clearly, universal healthcare improves coverage for the uninsured. I merely suggest that for a vast majority of americans, such changes will make their own insurance either more expensive or provide less insurance.

4. Wow!!! I get to be an apex predator?? Cool!! (usually, I am just some middle of the pack herd animal attempting to find todays veggies).
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Old 05-14-2009, 06:42 AM   #96
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Re: the new health care?

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Originally Posted by JoeRedskin View Post
1. With a national health plan, your employer's HMO coverage will eventually become more expensive. Initially, your quality of care will not decrease. At some point, as more and more people become "uninsured" and rely on the national plan, your employer's HMO become more expensive and he will eventually drop it leaving you with the national plan.

2. In general, and as I have pointed out above, having uninsured is NOT good for the rest of the insurance pool. Rather, having a large number of healthy young people paying for insurance lowers costs for all insureds.

3. I have not said that universal health care is a tragedy, rather, I suggest that to expect, in a nation of 250 million, high quality care at bargain basement prices is unrealistic. Clearly, universal healthcare improves coverage for the uninsured. I merely suggest that for a vast majority of americans, such changes will make their own insurance either more expensive or provide less insurance.

4. Wow!!! I get to be an apex predator?? Cool!! (usually, I am just some middle of the pack herd animal attempting to find todays veggies).
I think that is probably the case. How have the Cannucks and the Brits faired with similar idea's in mind. From the people I know that live or have lived in those countries, They have it........but it.......ain't great. Hard to see anyone for an appointment....marginal quality. I do not believe as you have stated it can be done "GOOD AND CHEAP". It will require a....shocking financial commitment. And finally "Apex predator"? That's sweet. Wil;l we be seeing you on the next episode of "the Cougar"?
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:12 AM   #97
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Re: the new health care?

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First off take that 45 million and cut that in half and thats closer to the number of people who cannot get or cannot afford health ins.
link? and anyway, isn't 22 million people without insurance enough?
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:17 AM   #98
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Re: the new health care?

What about eliminating the employer/health insurance link alltogether?

Make a total overhaul and allow people to join associations (or something of that ilk) that provide health insurance. Then people can pick and choose what association they'd like to be a part of...the association can more precisely manage membership demographics to provide a good balance. The associations should be non-profit orgs driven to balanced budgets. Just an idea that needs a lot more thought to it but maybe it could at least remove the barrier of needing employment to even have a chance to afford insurance. Even lower income folks could find an association that provides basic major medical at a low cost because of the group insurance rates and that would be a plus.
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:29 AM   #99
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Re: the new health care?

so we let the insurance/ medical field control the costs of managed health care? that seems to working just fine( not) i have an idea. lets try something new! oh my god, i said it. the dreaded change word, that petrifies many
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:40 AM   #100
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Re: the new health care?

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so we let the insurance/ medical field control the costs of managed health care? that seems to working just fine( not) i have an idea. lets try something new! oh my god, i said it. the dreaded change word, that petrifies many
As Ecclesiastes says: "there is nothing new under the sun"

Most ways of involving the government in health care have been tried in other countries. Every one, including ours, leaves something to be desired. I hope HSA's are the wave that the country goes forward with, as they seem to offer the best incentive to keep costs down and service quality up.
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:00 AM   #101
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Re: the new health care?

OK, then what do we do? just let things go on the way they are? pretty soon no one will make a decent wage, because of employers rising health care costs. and that's very hypocritical of you to all of a sudden worry about the national debt. where were you the last 8 years? right now, every U.S. business is feeling the bad economy. i promise, things will get better
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:11 AM   #102
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Re: the new health care?

Is there any sector that is running things in the green right now?
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:17 AM   #103
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Re: the new health care?

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OK, then what do we do? just let things go on the way they are? pretty soon no one will make a decent wage, because of employers rising health care costs. and that's very hypocritical of you to all of a sudden worry about the national debt. where were you the last 8 years? right now, every U.S. business is feeling the bad economy. i promise, things will get better
The Democrats have been in control of Congress since 2006. No one liked it when the Republicans spent a lot of money. Why would we like it when the Dems spend double that amount?
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:17 AM   #104
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Re: the new health care?

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OK, then what do we do? just let things go on the way they are? pretty soon no one will make a decent wage, because of employers rising health care costs. and that's very hypocritical of you to all of a sudden worry about the national debt. where were you the last 8 years? right now, every U.S. business is feeling the bad economy. i promise, things will get better
What alot of people don't seem to understand is how disgusted fiscal conservatives were with Bush about the debt. Doesn't mean they suddenly wanted Democrats in office, but they were not cheering Bush on as the country went on an ever larger spending spree.

Personally, i grew up a Republican, held a lot of ideals as a Republican, but after they had their chance and ended up going on spending sprees for the rich, at the country's expense, I could not vote for Republicans. Didn't want to vote Democratic either, cuz we know they will spend out of control, so that leaves me, and people like me, who want the government's roll to be minimal, and within a fixed budget, left without any useful voice. It is sad to see our country go down this road, and I speak of the out of control spending road, not Obama personally or even anti Democrat road. Just a road, where every single thing needs government assistance, or else somehow, we won't survive.
I hope I am wrong, I hope that Obama, the Democrats, and the Republicans all realize that unrestrained spending, even on good and noble pursuits, can not be had at the expense of everyone's childrens' futures.
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:24 AM   #105
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Re: the new health care?

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My office has grown in the past year.
My bad, I wasn't aware your office was it's own sector.
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