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republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party

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Old 06-01-2009, 06:04 PM   #61
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Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party

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Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33 View Post
Never became one. I'm not talking about overturning Roe v. Wade here. However, the killing of babies in the manner firstdown mentioned (partial birth abortion) is abhorent and the practice should be stopped. Not sure how anyone without a horse in the abortion rights debate would disagree. If I remember correctly you're against this also.

I saw this mentioned earlier and agree 100%, the moron who murdered the "doctor" did far more damage to the pro-life movement that anything the pro-abortion folks could've done.
This former Navy "doctor" performed the procedure only in cases in which a) the mother's live was absolutely in danger and b) if the child had a severe or fatal birth defects. It's not like he performed late term abortion on a whim...by law if the mother health was in danger he had to get an independent doctor to sign off to perform the procedure. There are legitimate reasons to perform late term abortions.
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Old 06-01-2009, 09:44 PM   #62
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Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party

not really related to the thread, but now we get this:

Police: Recruiting Center Gunman Targeted Military - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com

it's days like these that make you just shut off the computer and TV.
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Old 06-01-2009, 10:30 PM   #63
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Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party

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This former Navy "doctor" performed the procedure only in cases in which a) the mother's live was absolutely in danger and b) if the child had a severe or fatal birth defects. It's not like he performed late term abortion on a whim...by law if the mother health was in danger he had to get an independent doctor to sign off to perform the procedure. There are legitimate reasons to perform late term abortions.
I agree a) and b) can be reasons for a late term abortion and the decision should be left up to the woman and not dictated by government. But I'm not sure this guy wasn't strecthing the limitations to third trimester abortions under the Kansas law. Either way it's a very sad situation for the unborn and the family of Tiller.
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Old 06-01-2009, 11:43 PM   #64
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Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party

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This former Navy "doctor" performed the procedure only in cases in which a) the mother's live was absolutely in danger and b) if the child had a severe or fatal birth defects. It's not like he performed late term abortion on a whim...by law if the mother health was in danger he had to get an independent doctor to sign off to perform the procedure. There are legitimate reasons to perform late term abortions.
Some people seem to think he is the devil or something.

I was just listening to NPR and the person interviewed was a former nurse with Tiller and now a part of a pro-choice organization(so take it for what you feel it is worth, it is legit IMO). She was basically saying the vast majority of abortions performed were first trimester AND the majority of women were either rape victims or with fetus abnormalities(the mother's life in danger).

Also she made a good point countering those who claim he was in it for the money. This guy could have been a dr. in any other field in any other place, not the in the middle of nowhere. This guy apparently worm a bullet proof vest at most times because he knew his life was in danger. I guess he didn't during his slaying, but still it seems there weren't too many pluses in his line. She said he knew that abortions in certain instances are crucial for women. One of the abortions he performed was a 10 year old rape victim. Do you pro-lifers seriously think that abortion was not needed in that case?

Finally she was clear that he was a good guy but not a saint like the media is portraying him; according to her he was simply a good doctor(helped his patients feel comfortable, etc.).


In general the good guy stuff, etc. could be BS and the entire thing could be a bit bias but serveral news sources have mentioned what I did note in my 2nd paragraph. How can one justify murder, based on their political beliefs? I still don't believe how one can even not feel bad for the guy; that is terrible. I want a response to this post before some of you guys keep on ranting that he deserved it.
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Old 06-02-2009, 02:28 AM   #65
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Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party

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Some people seem to think he is the devil or something.

I was just listening to NPR and the person interviewed was a former nurse with Tiller and now a part of a pro-choice organization(so take it for what you feel it is worth, it is legit IMO). She was basically saying the vast majority of abortions performed were first trimester AND the majority of women were either rape victims or with fetus abnormalities(the mother's life in danger).

Also she made a good point countering those who claim he was in it for the money. This guy could have been a dr. in any other field in any other place, not the in the middle of nowhere. This guy apparently worm a bullet proof vest at most times because he knew his life was in danger. I guess he didn't during his slaying, but still it seems there weren't too many pluses in his line. She said he knew that abortions in certain instances are crucial for women. One of the abortions he performed was a 10 year old rape victim. Do you pro-lifers seriously think that abortion was not needed in that case?

Finally she was clear that he was a good guy but not a saint like the media is portraying him; according to her he was simply a good doctor(helped his patients feel comfortable, etc.).


In general the good guy stuff, etc. could be BS and the entire thing could be a bit bias but serveral news sources have mentioned what I did note in my 2nd paragraph. How can one justify murder, based on their political beliefs? I still don't believe how one can even not feel bad for the guy; that is terrible. I want a response to this post before some of you guys keep on ranting that he deserved it.
Perhaps Dr. Tiller received a personal sense of justification from providing a service to victims of rape. I don't believe there's a such thing as an unjustified abortion. Clearly, it's never an easy decision for the mother, regardless of the surrounding circumstances. And if he felt the right thing to do was provide the choice to people who otherwise would not have had an option, then I think you could argue that he was a good doctor doing good work and/or caring for his patients. That's one way to look at it.

But if dudes going to wear a bullet proof vest around town because he's in that much danger, based on political ideology, what do you want me to say when some nutjob kills him after multiple attempts on his life already? Clearly, his self-preservation instincts were either broken, or being suffocated by a perceived selflessness to a minority group.

If his former nurse is right, and he could have had a job anywhere, then the rational move would have been to take a job elsewhere when he first had an attempt on his life. Once you forfeit your right to safety, death becomes more inevitable than tragic.

Clearly, the only justification for not leaving the Wichita area was a perceived sense of moral justification in his actions. It's sort of ironic, isn't it? People wanted this man to lose his license because of a questionable moral compass, but the only rational justification for his actions is a higher sense of what is right. They can't both be right, now can they?

The only certainty appears to be that the party that committed the homicide is guilty of moral wrongdoing.
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:48 AM   #66
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Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party

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Thats what the law said but that was not the case with this doctor and why he had people coming from all over the US. It seems he used that as more of a cover to get away with what he was doing.
George Tiller: a Case Study
Dude the website you cited was not a legit news source. This argument will never go anywhere if you cite things like that. A quote from the site...

What motivates an abortionist? What must they think as they slash and tear a baby apart or plunge a knife into its neck? Somehow, abortionists have become callused to the reality of their actions. Like Shakespeare’s Macbeth, they have blood on their hands, and it cannot be washed off. They are like gas chamber operators during Hitler’s holocaust. They are like slave traders who traded in human flesh during slavery.
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:53 AM   #67
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Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party

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Perhaps Dr. Tiller received a personal sense of justification from providing a service to victims of rape. I don't believe there's a such thing as an unjustified abortion. Clearly, it's never an easy decision for the mother, regardless of the surrounding circumstances. And if he felt the right thing to do was provide the choice to people who otherwise would not have had an option, then I think you could argue that he was a good doctor doing good work and/or caring for his patients. That's one way to look at it.

But if dudes going to wear a bullet proof vest around town because he's in that much danger, based on political ideology, what do you want me to say when some nutjob kills him after multiple attempts on his life already? Clearly, his self-preservation instincts were either broken, or being suffocated by a perceived selflessness to a minority group.

If his former nurse is right, and he could have had a job anywhere, then the rational move would have been to take a job elsewhere when he first had an attempt on his life. Once you forfeit your right to safety, death becomes more inevitable than tragic.

Clearly, the only justification for not leaving the Wichita area was a perceived sense of moral justification in his actions. It's sort of ironic, isn't it? People wanted this man to lose his license because of a questionable moral compass, but the only rational justification for his actions is a higher sense of what is right. They can't both be right, now can they?

The only certainty appears to be that the party that committed the homicide is guilty of moral wrongdoing.
There are only 3 late term abortion clinics in the entire nation, without him there are only 2.
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:56 AM   #68
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Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party

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Thats what the law said but that was not the case with this doctor and why he had people coming from all over the US. It seems he used that as more of a cover to get away with what he was doing.
George Tiller: a Case Study
The folks who wrote the case study don't really matter. He was prosecuted with 19 counts of violating the law and was found not guilty on all 19 counts.
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:59 AM   #69
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Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party

What does this have to do with the Republican Party?
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Old 06-02-2009, 12:03 PM   #70
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Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party

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What does this have to do with the
Republican Party?
Nothing. I am not a big fan of the title, it was clearly created to provoke...

EDIT: I just read the first post, it was about Cheney which makes more sense.
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Old 06-02-2009, 01:59 PM   #71
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Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party

I'm a die-hard Repub, but I'll be the first to say that Bush-Cheney was epic fail and gave our party a bad name. Repub is the way to go because Dems are too myopic and naive, but like with every race/nationality, there are good and bad people in both parties.
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Old 06-02-2009, 03:10 PM   #72
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Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party

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I'm a die-hard Repub, but I'll be the first to say that Bush-Cheney was epic fail and gave our party a bad name. Repub is the way to go because Dems are too myopic and naive, but like with every race/nationality, there are good and bad people in both parties.
Oh my, big words for a diehard republican.
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Old 06-02-2009, 04:10 PM   #73
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Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party

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I'm a die-hard Repub, but I'll be the first to say that Bush-Cheney was epic fail and gave our party a bad name. Repub is the way to go because Dems are too myopic and naive, but like with every race/nationality, there are good and bad people in both parties.
Finally! I can agree with a republican about something! I can't believe it!

But, how can your party be the way to go when it has a Disc Jockey leading it?
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Old 06-02-2009, 04:14 PM   #74
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Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party

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Yea us Republicans stick to easy words like learning what the meaning of "is" is.


To be fair with Clinton, he just asked what Congress' meaning of 'is' was. Not what the meaning was.
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Old 06-02-2009, 05:09 PM   #75
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Re: republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party

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The folks who wrote the case study don't really matter. He was prosecuted with 19 counts of violating the law and was found not guilty on all 19 counts.
From the point of law absolutely correct.

However, the statistics mentioned from the Kansas Dept. of Health should be considered in the context of your earlier post of situations a) and b). The issue raised by the person who wrote the case study that Tiller was performing at least 50% of his late-term abortions on viable fetuses (babies) where there the mother's life was not in danger appears to be borne out in the statistics.

What isn't shown (I'm sure by design) is whether the reason for the abortion to "Prevent substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function" was a physical or mental health issue. If the case study is true, that Tiller was using "mental health" issues as justification for the late term abortions, while not illegal, his actions are much morally worse than if he was legitimately trying to save women's lives or aborting unviable fetuses.

KDHE Center for Health and Environmental Statistics
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