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What has Obama done well?

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Old 08-18-2009, 08:34 PM   #151
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Re: What has Obama done well?

This is reaching "Tom Brady's body language is bad" territory.
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Old 08-18-2009, 09:01 PM   #152
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Re: What has Obama done well?

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Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33 View Post
I was interpreting TTE's response as in reference to the POTUS's deep bow (much like a Japanese bow), maybe I missed or misinterpreted something.

The difference is in the situation. Bowing as a civilian in a non-offical capacity to another civilian in a foreign land is completely acceptable. But Obama isn't a civilian for at least the next 3 1/2 years, he's the POTUS and Commander in Chief. As Commander in Chief, no, he shouldn't bow in remorse IMO, nor should the Secretary of State, a lower level official like the regional or base commander, fine.

Thanks for the info, but again what a civilian does in a social setting isn't comparable to bowing in deference or submissiveness to any foreign gov't official or monarch/king. If that makes me unwise to only bow before the Pope and the Eucharist, then I guess I am unwise.

Working on it.
And so I am left to ask why you feel this way. Why do you find it palatable in one instance and not at all in another? Is it merely due to the importance of the individual in question and what they represent? If this is the case you espouse the very thing you detest in the symbolism of bowing (servility and the inequality of men).
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Old 08-18-2009, 09:38 PM   #153
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Re: What has Obama done well?

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Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
My post was in response to TTL post that indicated that his superior and himself (admittedly surmised from his previous posts and his general dickishness) viewed bowing as unacceptable proposition under any circumstance which you voiced as agreeable. Clearly, by your response, you don't seem to share this view and so I am left confused as to what you find agreeable.

Bowing in apology is acceptable but bowing in pleasantries is not? Would you think it acceptable if Obama (the commander in chief) bowed to the same mayor, prime minister or emperor of Japan under similar circumstance of remorse?

When in foreign lands wise men show the utmost deference to other cultures and their customs even if one perceives such endeavor to be embracing and shameful for to do otherwise is ultimately acting against ones own self-interest. Do not limit yourself to simply returning a bow my friend. Perhaps knowing what bowing is and its significance in different cultures might be helpful assessing its permissibility and irrelevance of order of bowing which you find virtuous.

p.s. What does the Office of Protocol say about the Commander in Chief and citizens not bowing to heads of states (monarch or otherwise), where can I find the protocol text?
We were representatives of the U.S. We weren't two schmucks on a fishing trip. I'm working on finding you that info. Many have alluded to the UCMJ which I did not. That is used to presecute more than to outline behavior from what I can remember. Had I bowed I would've probably been brought up on conduct unbecoming of an NCO. It wouldn't have been a huge offense. I'm looking through the Armed Forces Code of Conduct.

You are coming from a different frame of mind than some of the people who understand what I'm saying. What I am saying is this, there is no such thing as moral / cultural relativism for public officials. These are not expatriates doing as Romans would. This has nothing to do with respecting another's countries traditions.

I'll bet my bottom dollar we don't serve Saudi Princes N.C style BBQ for state functions. We do on the other hand make Muslim women take off their veils for official documents. They cannot have driver's licenses looking like ninjas just because it's part of their culture. I'm unfamiliar with the law, but I'm guessing I'd not be allowed to brew up Christmas Ale in Dubai.

As for that Naval Officer who bowed, well I've no opinion on that. My gut tells me he was probably apologizing for some drunken serviceman, but I don't know? When I was in the big honcho for the Navy blew his brains out because he wore some ribbons that weren't awarded to him. What can I say? Squids are strange.
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Old 08-18-2009, 09:45 PM   #154
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Re: What has Obama done well?

If Obama wants to repair an image, he should do so with people who matter.

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Old 08-18-2009, 10:01 PM   #155
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Re: What has Obama done well?

Clearly, we should all seek our answers to "Bowgate" from an expert:

Protocol for heads of state : Miss Manners : The Buffalo News
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:12 PM   #156
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Re: What has Obama done well?

Prophetic wisdom............
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:13 PM   #157
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Re: What has Obama done well?

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Clearly, we should all seek our answers to "Bowgate" from an expert:

Protocol for heads of state : Miss Manners : The Buffalo News
Miss Manners looks like Norman Bates in his mother's wig. I don't trust "her".

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Old 08-18-2009, 10:17 PM   #158
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Re: What has Obama done well?

^^ You know what? I want to see a birth certificate.
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:35 AM   #159
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Re: What has Obama done well?

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Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly View Post
If Obama wants to repair an image, he should do so with people who matter.


Repair his image? With whom?
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Old 08-19-2009, 03:07 AM   #160
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Re: What has Obama done well?

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Originally Posted by 12thMan View Post
Repair his image? With whom?
The poor soul is confused as always, he is unable do the necessary calculation required to conclude that it's not a snub but rather an introduction of the American delegation to the Russian president (quite obvious by the last handshake).
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Old 08-19-2009, 04:00 AM   #161
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Re: What has Obama done well?

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Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly View Post
We were representatives of the U.S. We weren't two schmucks on a fishing trip. I'm working on finding you that info. Many have alluded to the UCMJ which I did not. That is used to presecute more than to outline behavior from what I can remember. Had I bowed I would've probably been brought up on conduct unbecoming of an NCO. It wouldn't have been a huge offense. I'm looking through the Armed Forces Code of Conduct.

You are coming from a different frame of mind than some of the people who understand what I'm saying. What I am saying is this, there is no such thing as moral / cultural relativism for public officials. These are not expatriates doing as Romans would. This has nothing to do with respecting another's countries traditions.

I'll bet my bottom dollar we don't serve Saudi Princes N.C style BBQ for state functions. We do on the other hand make Muslim women take off their veils for official documents. They cannot have driver's licenses looking like ninjas just because it's part of their culture. I'm unfamiliar with the law, but I'm guessing I'd not be allowed to brew up Christmas Ale in Dubai.

As for that Naval Officer who bowed, well I've no opinion on that. My gut tells me he was probably apologizing for some drunken serviceman, but I don't know? When I was in the big honcho for the Navy blew his brains out because he wore some ribbons that weren't awarded to him. What can I say? Squids are strange.
Conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman is quite a serious offense and if convicted punishable through court martial.

Don't bet your bottom dollar, a BBQ is fine so long as you don't serve them pork and serve halal meat (if they are ostensibly religious). Similarly, I wouldn't expect our public officials to be served bush meat on their foreign visits with the expectations that they would dig in.

With respect to not allowing them to cover their face I agree with it as a matter of public safety and the alternative of wearing a hijab is permissible in all states. Several states actually allow you not to take an ID accompanied with a photo on religious grounds and some will allow you to wear your ninja mask with the expectation that you will show your full face to an officer of the law if requested to do so. Clearly, there is no universal law against the ninja get'up.

I don't know if you can brew your own beer but I do know you can walk into a liquor store in Dubai with alcohol license in hand and buy any sort of beer that catches your fancy. I'm not puzzled by their laws though as I am still unable to freely grow my on cannabis plants.
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Last edited by saden1; 08-19-2009 at 04:27 AM.
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Old 08-19-2009, 07:20 AM   #162
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Re: What has Obama done well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by saden1 View Post
The poor soul is confused as always, he is unable do the necessary calculation required to conclude that it's not a snub but rather an introduction of the American delegation to the Russian president (quite obvious by the last handshake).

Okay, good. I watched it a few times and thought that something didn't quite feel right with regards to the entire group "snubbing" the President.
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Old 08-19-2009, 07:33 AM   #163
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Re: What has Obama done well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeRedskin View Post
Clearly, we should all seek our answers to "Bowgate" from an expert:

Protocol for heads of state : Miss Manners : The Buffalo News
best line in the article:

Quote:
Then, about half a century ago, came the American huggy movement.
(ok I added the smiley)
can't we all just get along??
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Old 08-19-2009, 07:44 AM   #164
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Re: What has Obama done well?

pardon us while we resume our normal thread discussion

He has served the first 7 months effectively, I think it would be interesting to have a candid discussion with all the president's about the position of POTUS. For as much political bs that is spewed, it is a great responsibility to lead this country, and to be looked at daily to answer detailed questions on every topic from the latest threats, to healthcare to -- every other topic under the sun. Everyone who sits in that seat deserves a basic healthy respect from the country.
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:29 AM   #165
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Re: What has Obama done well?

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Originally Posted by 12thMan View Post
Repair his image? With whom?
I said an image. Many have this thought in their mind that America needs to improve it's image throughout the world. If Obama wants to repair images perhaps he should work on his own. This looked like a snub to me and I found it disrespectful. If the POTUS extends his hand to you, as a foreign official you should take it.
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