Warpath  

Home | Forums | Salary Cap Info | Shop | Donate | Stay Connected




Go Back   Warpath > Off-Topic Discussion > Parking Lot


Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting

Parking Lot


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-23-2012, 01:04 PM   #136
Mann Up HOF!
 
Lotus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Hattiesburg, MS
Posts: 10,504
Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by NC_Skins View Post
Public defender. They have to. Their only job here is possibly helping him get many life sentences as compared to the death penalty. That or the "plead insanity", which I somehow doubt since he's planned this over the course of months.


That lawyer has that look like "WHY THE **** ME??". I bet they drew straws to see who would represent him and she lost...lol
Premeditation really has nothing to do with the insanity defense. The insanity defense is all about one knowing whether one's actions are right or wrong. You can get your morals mixed up in a premeditated way. Or, put differently, you can be both premeditated and insane in your actions.
__________________
Rooting for the Dallas Cowboys should be recognized as a treatable mental disorder.
Lotus is offline   Reply With Quote

Advertisements
Old 07-23-2012, 01:10 PM   #137
Contains football related knowledge
 
JoeRedskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Second Star On The Right
Age: 51
Posts: 8,530
Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by mooby View Post
He looks like a nut. I'm presuming they are going to go with the insanity defense.
Not a defense likely to succeed, IMHO. Here's the statute for CO's insanity defense:

Quote:
16-8-101.5. Insanity defined - offenses committed on and after July 1, 1995.
(1) The applicable test of insanity shall be: (a) A person who is so diseased or defective in mind at the time of the commission of the act as to be incapable of distinguishing right from wrong with respect to that act is not accountable; except that care should be taken not to confuse such mental disease or defect with moral obliquity, mental depravity, or passion growing out of anger, revenge, hatred, or other motives and kindred evil conditions, for, when the act is induced by any of these causes, the person is accountable to the law; or

(b) A person who suffered from a condition of mind caused by mental disease or defect that prevented the person from forming a culpable mental state that is an essential element of a crime charged, but care should be taken not to confuse such mental disease or defect with moral obliquity, mental depravity, or passion growing out of anger, revenge, hatred, or other motives and kindred evil conditions, for, when the act is induced by any of these causes, the person is accountable to the law.

(2) As used in subsection (1) of this section: (a) "Diseased or defective in mind" does not refer to an abnormality manifested only by repeated criminal or otherwise antisocial conduct.

(b) "Mental disease or defect" includes only those severely abnormal mental conditions that grossly and demonstrably impair a person's perception or understanding of reality and that are not attributable to the voluntary ingestion of alcohol or any other psychoactive substance but does not include an abnormality manifested only by repeated criminal or otherwise antisocial conduct.
Session Laws of Colorado 1995 - Chapter 26

According to the statute, as I read it, it is an affirmative defense. Meaning Holmes must prove that - as he was formulatting the crime - he lacked the cognitive ability to distinguish right from wrong. [Note the limitation stated in the second part of the statute: "care should be taken not to confuse such mental disease or defect with moral obliquity, mental depravity, or passion growing out of anger, revenge, hatred, or other motives and kindred evil conditions because, when the act is induced by any of these causes, the person is accountable to the law."]

Given the amount of planning, the nature of the crime and the booby trapped apartment, I think it would be next to impossible for him to prove he was under some delusion that prevented him from distinguishing right from wrong.
__________________
You aren't worth the water in my spit but, maybe, just maybe, you're worth the lead in my shotgun.

Last edited by JoeRedskin; 07-23-2012 at 01:46 PM.
JoeRedskin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2012, 01:19 PM   #138
Franchise Player
 
mredskins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,634
Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting

I still think a worst penalty is to rot in a cell vs. being put to death.
__________________
When life gives you paper jams, turn them into paper footballs!
mredskins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2012, 01:24 PM   #139
Contains football related knowledge
 
JoeRedskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Second Star On The Right
Age: 51
Posts: 8,530
Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotus View Post
Premeditation really has nothing to do with the insanity defense. The insanity defense is all about one knowing whether one's actions are right or wrong. You can get your morals mixed up in a premeditated way. Or, put differently, you can be both premeditated and insane in your actions.
True enough, at the same time, pre-meditation goes to (1) whether or not you were under any immediate delusion when you committed the act; and (2) forms the basis for inquiry into whether or not you knew what you were doing as you carried out the planning.

Q: You purchased materials to create toxic gasses and to booby trap your apartment?
A: Yes.
Q: Why?
A: Because I thought I was the Joker and needed to protect my hideout.
Q: You aware that the Joker is considered a criminal?
A: He was considered insane and simply was misunderstood by society.
Q: You understood the Joker kills people?
A: Yes.
Q: And that society punished the Joker for killing others?
A: Yes.
Q: And by copying the Joker, you would be doing actions that would also be punished by society.
A: uhh....

Premeditation, while not determinative, is certainly relevant to exploring the motive. ... why did he do it? Unless he was under the provable delusion that he was somehow saving mankind, I don't see him getting away from the "moral depravity" of his planning.
__________________
You aren't worth the water in my spit but, maybe, just maybe, you're worth the lead in my shotgun.
JoeRedskin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2012, 01:42 PM   #140
Mann Up HOF!
 
Lotus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Hattiesburg, MS
Posts: 10,504
Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeRedskin View Post
True enough, at the same time, pre-meditation goes to (1) whether or not you were under any immediate delusion when you committed the act; and (2) forms the basis for inquiry into whether or not you knew what you were doing as you carried out the planning.

Q: You purchased materials to create toxic gasses and to booby trap your apartment?
A: Yes.
Q: Why?
A: Because I thought I was the Joker and needed to protect my hideout.
Q: You aware that the Joker is considered a criminal?
A: He was considered insane and simply was misunderstood by society.
Q: You understood the Joker kills people?
A: Yes.
Q: And that society punished the Joker for killing others?
A: Yes.
Q: And by copying the Joker, you would be doing actions that would also be punished by society.
A: uhh....

Premeditation, while not determinative, is certainly relevant to exploring the motive. ... why did he do it? Unless he was under the provable delusion that he was somehow saving mankind, I don't see him getting away from the "moral depravity" of his planning.
Thank you for your legal expertise! Once again I bow to your jurisprudent wisdom.

However, I think my argument still remains against a couple of people in this thread who have at least implied that premeditation is flat-out determinative regarding the insanity defense.
__________________
Rooting for the Dallas Cowboys should be recognized as a treatable mental disorder.
Lotus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2012, 01:50 PM   #141
MVP
 
CRedskinsRule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Pasadena, Md
Age: 47
Posts: 12,480
Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by CultBrennan59 View Post
This dude is crazy, he just looks like a nut. And yeah, thats what I don't like about lawyers, when they defend the clearly guilty.
Everyone deserves a lawyer, even the clearly guilty. Otherwise, who determines the "clearly guilty" from the "d*** sure looks guilty"? Other than once the coming computer judges control judicial dispensations, we always need lawyers who are willing to take up the poorest of the poor, or most atrocious cases, and defend them even when the world says it's indefensible. That may seem outrageous, but it forces the system to play it straight, and not take liberties with our liberties.
__________________
Dirtbag59, sending songs to oblivion 1 writer at a time.
CRedskinsRule is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2012, 02:24 PM   #142
MVP
 
mooby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: NoVa
Age: 26
Posts: 11,830
Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule View Post
Everyone deserves a lawyer, even the clearly guilty. Otherwise, who determines the "clearly guilty" from the "d*** sure looks guilty"? Other than once the coming computer judges control judicial dispensations, we always need lawyers who are willing to take up the poorest of the poor, or most atrocious cases, and defend them even when the world says it's indefensible. That may seem outrageous, but it forces the system to play it straight, and not take liberties with our liberties.




It could happen.
mooby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2012, 02:36 PM   #143
Contains football related knowledge
 
JoeRedskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Second Star On The Right
Age: 51
Posts: 8,530
Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule View Post
Everyone deserves a lawyer, even the clearly guilty. Otherwise, who determines the "clearly guilty" from the "d*** sure looks guilty"? Other than once the coming computer judges control judicial dispensations, we always need lawyers who are willing to take up the poorest of the poor, or most atrocious cases, and defend them even when the world says it's indefensible. That may seem outrageous, but it forces the system to play it straight, and not take liberties with our liberties.
Could not have said it better myself. (Well, I could but, every now and then, I have to give you one).

Again, and as always, ... thoughts and sympathy to the victims and their survivors as this next part of the healing process goes forward. I wish them strength as it proceeds and, hopefully, justice is done.
__________________
You aren't worth the water in my spit but, maybe, just maybe, you're worth the lead in my shotgun.
JoeRedskin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2012, 02:38 PM   #144
Registered User
 
firstdown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: chesapeake, va
Age: 50
Posts: 15,818
Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule View Post
Everyone deserves a lawyer, even the clearly guilty. Otherwise, who determines the "clearly guilty" from the "d*** sure looks guilty"? Other than once the coming computer judges control judicial dispensations, we always need lawyers who are willing to take up the poorest of the poor, or most atrocious cases, and defend them even when the world says it's indefensible. That may seem outrageous, but it forces the system to play it straight, and not take liberties with our liberties.
I understand that everyone has the right to a lawyer. What I don't get is when a lawyer knows his person killed the people but he still looks for ways to get the charges dropped.
firstdown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2012, 02:45 PM   #145
MVP
 
mooby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: NoVa
Age: 26
Posts: 11,830
Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by firstdown View Post
I understand that everyone has the right to a lawyer. What I don't get is when a lawyer knows his person killed the people but he still looks for ways to get the charges dropped.
It's called being a public defender. It means that if you get assigned to defend a person, you have to, even if you know they are guilty.
mooby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2012, 02:48 PM   #146
MVP
 
CRedskinsRule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Pasadena, Md
Age: 47
Posts: 12,480
Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by firstdown View Post
I understand that everyone has the right to a lawyer. What I don't get is when a lawyer knows his person killed the people but he still looks for ways to get the charges dropped.
It really is quite simple. It is the State's burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that any person is guilty of the charge that the State is accusing them of. It is the defense's responsibility to carry out the best defense possible and use all avenues available, with in ethical boundaries (can't lie, misrepresent what they know first hand to be true etc). If the State is allowed to play the "well we all know this" without being forced to prove every point, then far more damage will be done to more people than any 1 criminal conviction would do.

In this specific case, let the lawyers for this guy play their hands, in the end I am willing to trust that the system will find him guilty, and, if it doesn't, than the State simply didn't do it's job.
__________________
Dirtbag59, sending songs to oblivion 1 writer at a time.
CRedskinsRule is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2012, 02:48 PM   #147
Contains football related knowledge
 
JoeRedskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Second Star On The Right
Age: 51
Posts: 8,530
Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting

It's that whole taking "liberties with your liberties" thing. It's the Govt.'s burden, at all times, to prove that there is just cause to deny someone their life or liberty - hence, innocent until proven guilty. To ensure that there is just cause, we have an adverserial legal system, and, to ensure that such a system works, it's the duty of the defense attorney to mount a vigorous defense. If defense attorneys start "taking a fall" when they have a client they think is guilty it undercuts the validity judicial system and starts, quite frankly, letting lawyers substitute their judgment for the judge and jury (i.e. - I think my guy is guilty, but I know the State can't prove it. I'll just mount a crappy defense so he gets found guilty.")

I would never, ever want to be a criminal defense attorney but, even in the most eggregiious cases - like this one, I understand their necessity.
__________________
You aren't worth the water in my spit but, maybe, just maybe, you're worth the lead in my shotgun.
JoeRedskin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2012, 03:02 PM   #148
Uncle Phil
 
SmootSmack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 44,626
Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting

Side note: Peyton Manning individually calling each of the surviving victims in the hospital...awesome. Like when he called the beat reporters who covered him in Indy after he signed with the Broncos to thank them for their service.
__________________
You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You
SmootSmack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2012, 03:14 PM   #149
MVP
 
mooby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: NoVa
Age: 26
Posts: 11,830
Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmootSmack View Post
Side note: Peyton Manning individually calling each of the surviving victims in the hospital...awesome. Like when he called the beat reporters who covered him in Indy after he signed with the Broncos to thank them for their service.
I don't want to give props to Peyton for just this, I read an article somewhere (might be in the offseason thread) that mentioned a few Broncos went to one of the hospitals where they had a few of the victims at. That's a very nice move on their behalf, it's good to see the community rally together in an instance like this.
mooby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2012, 04:03 PM   #150
MVP
 
NC_Skins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 10,471
Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by mooby View Post
I don't want to give props to Peyton for just this, I read an article somewhere (might be in the offseason thread) that mentioned a few Broncos went to one of the hospitals where they had a few of the victims at. That's a very nice move on their behalf, it's good to see the community rally together in an instance like this.
Denver Broncos visit Colorado shooting victims in hospital - ESPN
__________________
"So let me get this straight. We have the event of the year on TV with millions watching around the world... and people want a punt, pass, and kick competition to be the halftime entertainment?? Folks, don't quit your day jobs."- Matty
NC_Skins is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site is not officially affiliated with the Washington Redskins or the NFL.
Page generated in 0.33355 seconds with 9 queries

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0 RC5

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25