Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting

mooby · 07-23-2012, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firstdown

I understand that everyone has the right to a lawyer. What I don't get is when a lawyer knows his person killed the people but he still looks for ways to get the charges dropped.

It's called being a public defender. It means that if you get assigned to defend a person, you have to, even if you know they are guilty.

CRedskinsRule · 07-23-2012, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firstdown

I understand that everyone has the right to a lawyer. What I don't get is when a lawyer knows his person killed the people but he still looks for ways to get the charges dropped.

It really is quite simple. It is the State's burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that any person is guilty of the charge that the State is accusing them of. It is the defense's responsibility to carry out the best defense possible and use all avenues available, with in ethical boundaries (can't lie, misrepresent what they know first hand to be true etc). If the State is allowed to play the "well we all know this" without being forced to prove every point, then far more damage will be done to more people than any 1 criminal conviction would do.

In this specific case, let the lawyers for this guy play their hands, in the end I am willing to trust that the system will find him guilty, and, if it doesn't, than the State simply didn't do it's job.

JoeRedskin · 07-23-2012, 02:48 PM

It's that whole taking "liberties with your liberties" thing. It's the Govt.'s burden, at all times, to prove that there is just cause to deny someone their life or liberty - hence, innocent until proven guilty. To ensure that there is just cause, we have an adverserial legal system, and, to ensure that such a system works, it's the duty of the defense attorney to mount a vigorous defense. If defense attorneys start "taking a fall" when they have a client they think is guilty it undercuts the validity judicial system and starts, quite frankly, letting lawyers substitute their judgment for the judge and jury (i.e. - I think my guy is guilty, but I know the State can't prove it. I'll just mount a crappy defense so he gets found guilty.")

I would never, ever want to be a criminal defense attorney but, even in the most eggregiious cases - like this one, I understand their necessity.

SmootSmack · 07-23-2012, 03:02 PM

Side note: Peyton Manning individually calling each of the surviving victims in the hospital...awesome. Like when he called the beat reporters who covered him in Indy after he signed with the Broncos to thank them for their service.

CultBrennan59 · 07-23-2012, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Everyone deserves a lawyer, even the clearly guilty. Otherwise, who determines the "clearly guilty" from the "d*** sure looks guilty"? Other than once the coming computer judges control judicial dispensations, we always need lawyers who are willing to take up the poorest of the poor, or most atrocious cases, and defend them even when the world says it's indefensible. That may seem outrageous, but it forces the system to play it straight, and not take liberties with our liberties.

No I understand, its just annoying. Hey no one said our court system was perfect.

mooby · 07-23-2012, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Side note: Peyton Manning individually calling each of the surviving victims in the hospital...awesome. Like when he called the beat reporters who covered him in Indy after he signed with the Broncos to thank them for their service.

I don't want to give props to Peyton for just this, I read an article somewhere (might be in the offseason thread) that mentioned a few Broncos went to one of the hospitals where they had a few of the victims at. That's a very nice move on their behalf, it's good to see the community rally together in an instance like this.

NC_Skins · 07-23-2012, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mooby

I don't want to give props to Peyton for just this, I read an article somewhere (might be in the offseason thread) that mentioned a few Broncos went to one of the hospitals where they had a few of the victims at. That's a very nice move on their behalf, it's good to see the community rally together in an instance like this.

Denver Broncos visit Colorado shooting victims in hospital - ESPN

RedskinRat · 07-23-2012, 04:10 PM

This is a great example, to me, where the cops on scene could have done everyone a HUGE favor and shot the guy dead.

Now this nonsense of a trial will waste peoples time and money for the next few years.

CRedskinsRule · 07-23-2012, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

This is a great example, to me, where the cops on scene could have done everyone a HUGE favor and shot the guy dead.

Now this nonsense of a trial will waste peoples time and money for the next few years.

Clearly not the case, and more the plot of a movie than real life, but suppose this man was part of a larger conspiracy and taking him alive allowed us to find his other conspirators who had planned of a weekend long Joker siege. Or, what if he had been forced into this role by some dramatic form of blackmail.

Again, obviously as of now he looks like he was alone in it, but police on the scene should never be judge, jury, and executioner. The time and money cost is a reasonable expense to protect our society

RedskinRat · 07-23-2012, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Clearly not the case, and more the plot of a movie than real life, but suppose this man was part of a larger conspiracy and taking him alive allowed us to find his other conspirators who had planned of a weekend long Joker siege. Or, what if he had been forced into this role by some dramatic form of blackmail.

Again, obviously as of now he looks like he was alone in it, but police on the scene should never be judge, jury, and executioner. The time and money cost is a reasonable expense to protect our society

He looked as guilty as a puppy sitting by a puddle of piss.

How is this charming fellow languishing in jail protecting anyone more that him being dead would.

Hog1 · 07-23-2012, 07:21 PM

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/documents/FactSheet.pdf

A 2009 poll commissioned by DPIC found police chiefs
ranked the death penalty last among ways to reduce
violent crime. The police chiefs also considered the
death penalty the least efficient use of taxpayers’ money.

Interesting stuff. Check out the financial section near the bottom of the page

mlmpetert · 07-23-2012, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

He looked as guilty as a puppy sitting by a puddle of piss.

How is this charming fellow languishing in jail protecting anyone more that him being dead would.

Well if they killed him he would have never told them about the bombs in his apt. Maybe a lot more people die and a whole apt building with many homes is destroyed. Plus i dont believe the cops could have had any way of knowing how horrible the situation was. He ran into them as he was leaving, they wernt chasing him through the carnage.

It sounds like the police and all the authorities acted flawlessly. Think about this 10 people were dead on site, 58 others injured many severely. So far only 2 of the injured have died.

CRedskinsRule · 07-24-2012, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

He looked as guilty as a puppy sitting by a puddle of piss.

How is this charming fellow languishing in jail protecting anyone more that him being dead would.

So find him guilty in a court of law, with due process, and then fry him. But not by a police officer's bullet.

CRedskinsRule · 07-24-2012, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlmpetert

Well if they killed him he would have never told them about the bombs in his apt. Maybe a lot more people die and a whole apt building with many homes is destroyed. Plus i dont believe the cops could have had any way of knowing how horrible the situation was. He ran into them as he was leaving, they wernt chasing him through the carnage.

It sounds like the police and all the authorities acted flawlessly. Think about this 10 people were dead on site, 58 others injured many severely. So far only 2 of the injured have died.

Great point.

NC_Skins · 07-24-2012, 08:31 AM

God damnit, I hate the media at times. Remember when they had that quote from the mother that made it look like she knew something by her quote "yes, you have the right person". Looks like we have some selective editing by ABC.

Alleged Colorado Gunman's Family Stands by Son - Yahoo! News

Quote:

ABC News phoned Arlene Holmes at 5am PST, at her home in San Diego, Calif., according to notes and email records by ABC News producer Matthew Mosk, who placed the call.

Through her lawyer, Holmes today sought to clarify the remarks she made in that phone interview.

"I did not know anything about a shooting in Aurora at that time," Arlene Holmes's said in statement read by her lawyer today. "He [Mosk] asked if I was Arlene Holmes and if my son was James Holmes, who lives in Aurora, Colorado. I answered yes, you have the right person. I was referring to myself. I asked him to tell me why he was calling and he told me about a shooting in Aurora. He asked for a comment. I told him I could not comment because I did not know if the person he was talking about was my son and I would need to find out."

Alleged shooter's mom: Reports she knew son was troubled were wrong - The Denver Post

07-23-2012, 02:48 PM	#153
JoeRedskin Contains football related knowledge Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Second Star On The Right Age: 50 Posts: 7,214	Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting It's that whole taking "liberties with your liberties" thing. It's the Govt.'s burden, at all times, to prove that there is just cause to deny someone their life or liberty - hence, innocent until proven guilty. To ensure that there is just cause, we have an adverserial legal system, and, to ensure that such a system works, it's the duty of the defense attorney to mount a vigorous defense. If defense attorneys start "taking a fall" when they have a client they think is guilty it undercuts the validity judicial system and starts, quite frankly, letting lawyers substitute their judgment for the judge and jury (i.e. - I think my guy is guilty, but I know the State can't prove it. I'll just mount a crappy defense so he gets found guilty.") I would never, ever want to be a criminal defense attorney but, even in the most eggregiious cases - like this one, I understand their necessity. __________________ My Little Pony: Friendship is magic? or ... a repressive matriarchal society where individuals' roles are defined by their immutable physical characteristics and governance is reserved for those who demonstrate the genetic purity of the pony master race?

07-23-2012, 03:02 PM	#154
SmootSmack The Bluths Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 43,215	Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting Side note: Peyton Manning individually calling each of the surviving victims in the hospital...awesome. Like when he called the beat reporters who covered him in Indy after he signed with the Broncos to thank them for their service. __________________ You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You

07-23-2012, 04:10 PM	#158
RedskinRat Born a Rocker,Die a Rocker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: I'm in LA, trick! Posts: 6,909	Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting This is a great example, to me, where the cops on scene could have done everyone a HUGE favor and shot the guy dead. Now this nonsense of a trial will waste peoples time and money for the next few years.

07-23-2012, 07:21 PM	#161
Hog1 Quietly Dominating the East Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Naples, Florida Posts: 8,413	Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/documents/FactSheet.pdf A 2009 poll commissioned by DPIC found police chiefs ranked the death penalty last among ways to reduce violent crime. The police chiefs also considered the death penalty the least efficient use of taxpayers’ money. Interesting stuff. Check out the financial section near the bottom of the page __________________ Goodbye Sean..........Vaya Con Dios thankyou Joe....... Win! Always win! By fair means or foul, by soft words and hard deeds... by treachery, by cunning, by malpractice... but always win--Edward Teach

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Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting

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