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Old 04-21-2004, 09:38 AM   #31
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Here is an interesting link to a review of the most recent Bob Woodward book:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4767542/

It supports a lot of what you, Daseal and Ghost, seem to be saying perhaps just toned down a bit.

Just so I am clear, I happen to agree with many of your sentiments Daseal and Ghost, but I just don't see the matter quite so black and white as the two of you seem to believe it is.
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Old 04-21-2004, 12:45 PM   #32
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I, for one, am not yet willing to pass judgment on our success or failure of this goal.
I agree wholeheartedly but unfortunately we live in a society where people expect results in a heartbeat. i'm not completely up to date with ww2 history but does anyone know how long it took to rebuild germany or japan? living in a "what have you done for me lately" kind of society is going to breed this kind of unrest, but for once some people just need to be patient before passing judgement on something they probably know very little about the actual facts of what's going on and not just what the media tells us. I know I've done it, we all have. but in this situation, i for one hope to reserve my judgement on the repairing of iraq being a failure or a success for a later time.
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Old 04-21-2004, 09:51 PM   #33
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My biggest problem with Iraq is if we could only convince one other country to go to war with us, our evidence obviously wasn't that good. I've heard reports of Bush telling cabinet members soon after he was elected that he wanted to get Saddam. Saddam was an awful man, there's not a single person that will debate that with you. However, was he endangering me or you? The answer is, no.

A couple months ago I was at a party with some friends, and a girls boyfriend came down. I found out he was a Marine and I saw him push his sleeves up I saw OPERATION tatooed on one forearm, and IRAQI FREEDOM on the other forearm. I figured he was a fanatical "kill em' all" type. Being curious about how the situation was over there, I went up and asked him about it. To my suprise he had just gotten back a few weeks ago for (I think) a couple months. So I asked him his opinion and how Iraq was. This is what he told me:
"Don't believe the media hype, this is a war for oil." Although that isn't my personal stance, I was a bit shocked. He told me that Iraq was very similar to the US dictator or not. Said he'd walk down the street and children would be playing in play grounds and doing things just like regular life, just like here. They'd go in, takeover someone's house, play cards all day, and then do three security checks a day. He said that the war was totally frivilous and that MANY MANY MANY Marines have no idea why we're there, himself included. I also have a family member, although it's a bit distance, a 2nd cousin that got back from Iraq. He had similar feelings on the whole thing. It was funny watching and listening to that section of the family talking about how this war was great, till their son got yanked out of college and sent to Iraq. Hurray for the reserves!

I thought I'd include my conversation with the Marine guy, just to give a little perspective. I don't think that everyday life was as bad as it's made out to be, and I personally feel much more scared with Saddam forced out of power. There's a reason countries, most noteworthy Spain, are pulling out of Iraq. The terrorists are attacking them until they stop supporting us. This isn't exactly the type of Islamic support we need. We need to try to create some sort of connection over there to help aid the peace process. As of now that whole religion hates us, and I can't really blame them. I hate the actions of our country, and I live here! We're losing money, troops, and killing innocent civilians every day. We killed 16 children a few weeks ago in a firefight. 16 children. You realize how absolutly livid you guys would be right now if Iraq busted in, knocked Bush out of power, took over, and killed 16 children? I'd be throwing molotof cocktails too!

As far as Botox goes. Unfortunatly looks matter in a political election. I can't think of a single President in the fairly recent past that has been ugly or unappealing to look at. They all have problems, but they are far from ugly. Appearnce means a lot when it comes to being elected. However I don't think cosmetic history should matter in this case.

In closing I want to say that my posts are also not an attack on anyone, and I don't want them to be seen as such. I enjoy getting a viewpoint from different sides, it keeps me from sliding too far to an extreme I think. Also, the leader of either the FBI or CIA said they weren't sure about the intelligence and told the Bush administration not to act on it, they were trying to gather more information. This is pretty concrete if you ask me.
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Old 04-21-2004, 10:01 PM   #34
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I don't see this as a matter of people expecting results in a heartbeat. It's a matter of understanding the mentality of the people upon whom we're attempting to impose a democratic government, a people who have no connection to democracy, a people who have a strong faith in Islam, a people who have a strong suspicion of American motives. I don't think Iraqis, or Muslims and Arabs in general, will accept another U.S.-installed country or system of government in the Middle East. My prediction is that as soon as the U.S. or eventually the U.N. withdraws the bulk of its forces, the vast Shia majority will seize control and overthrow the puppet government. Then there is a potential for an Iran/Iraq theocratic superpower as both countries ally under Islam against their perceived enemy: us. Talk about a plan backfiring.

So it's not that I'm expecting results or feeling impatient. I fully expect this gambit to fail, and I have thought this from day one, thus I have spoken out against this war from day one. I could be wrong about all of this of course because you never know what the future holds, but it's clear to me that the odds are against what we would consider "success" in Iraq. Eventually those people are going to decide on their own government, no matter what we do. I fear that, by going into Iraq, we have only created a new generation of terrorists and squandered whatever sympathy the world community felt for us following 9/11. A lot of people see us as the "bad guys" now.
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Old 04-22-2004, 01:20 AM   #35
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i may be mistaken but I'm pretty sure around 45 countries gave assistance in some form or another to the war against saddam. and while i can't dispute some of what u said and how those two marines u'd spoken too feel, i know that from my own interaction with those in the military(father in navy, uncle and aunt army reserves, and an uncle in the navy {was working at the pentagon roughly a block or so when it was struck on 9-11} and I lived in navy housing for the past 6 years) that more people involved in the effort over there understand and believe in what we r doing. i honestly wish this situation had never come about but islamic fanatics struck us first and unfortunately i do kind of see this as bush lumping that area together as those who attacked us and at the same time take out a ruler who should have been removed from power over a decade ago. there's a very good chance this is going to get a whole lot worse before it starts to get better but things have already been put into motion and now those with power to make the transition smoother need to stop pointing fingers and bickering back and forth like kids on the playground or else this is going to fester for years to come.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Daseal
In closing I want to say that my posts are also not an attack on anyone, and I don't want them to be seen as such. I enjoy getting a viewpoint from different sides, it keeps me from sliding too far to an extreme I think. Also, the leader of either the FBI or CIA said they weren't sure about the intelligence and told the Bush administration not to act on it, they were trying to gather more information. This is pretty concrete if you ask me.
if it was found out that saddam was trying to create or already had created WMD and the administration acted too late, would anyone be acting the same way? i say yes because even with a possibly huge threat to the world averted, there'd still be some people who complain for the sake of complaining. unfortunately not every situation can be fixed by words alone. and to those of u who think the search for the weapons is over think again. u honestly think an entire country, that's practically a giant desert, could be searched throughly in a couple weeks like they did before the war started? especially a country under the leadership of someone who created a multitude of tunnels and secret bases throughtout areas of iraq. anyone think it odd that they found, and in some instances captured, a couple groups of iraqi troops with chemical suits and anti-nerv toxin medicines with them but yet didn't find any biological weapons yet?

as far as ugly presidents i can list: carter, nixon, ford, reagan, bush sr, and clinton. did anyone else notice a weird stain on clinton's nose the last couple years he was in office?

P.S. i really hate talking about this stuff, lol.
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Old 04-22-2004, 01:29 AM   #36
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A lot of people see us as the "bad guys" now.
we're always going to be seen as bad guys by the majority of the world because we live in a better off type of life, material wise atleast, than any other country in the world. and thus jealousy plays a big part in other people's hatred of us. and because of that we r expected, and partially should be i think, to help out more than other countries probably would. but yet we r still hated, so we r damned if we do and damned if we don't. france is a prime example of a country we have bailed out not only from occupation twice but also with funds and goods. we were hated before 9-11, slightly less hated for a short time afterward, and then quickly hated again. heck i still remember some morons in france and germany saying we deserved what happened on that day. i know my hopes for partial isolationism aren't very well spread but like i said in a previous post, i'd rather we focus on ourselves for a while to fix our countries own problems.
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Old 04-22-2004, 08:54 AM   #37
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I remember some moron Christians saying we deserved 9/11. Some televangalists here in the bible belt, can't remember his name. I don't think we "deserved" it. But I think we got off lucky, as lax as our security was, they could have done a lot more damage. I was shocked at first, but when I thought about it we should have seen it coming.

France bailed out, France isn't getting threatened by terrorists. Those stupid bastards.. HEY WAIT! We need to take care of our own shit before spending billions on a war. We spend 40 some billion a month I saw on the news last night, this number is expected to increase with time.

Gotta go to school now, will explain more when I get home!
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