Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

Changed my pick from mariota to fowler Jr

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1111117]
1. While he is a very good football player, Kerrigan isn't what I consider to be a premium OLB pass rusher.[/quote]We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this. Ryan was tied for 7th in sacks and top 3 in OLB behind only Justin Houston and Pernell McPhee for pass rush productivity.

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1111117]2. Since when is one top-notch edge rusher enough?[/quote]Who said having one was enough? I didn't.

Here's what I did say...[quote=30gut;1111112]...I wouldn't put OLB/edge rusher as a premium 1st round need on this team. I'm of the mindset that you a 34 defense "needs" 1 premium OLB pass rusher and having a 2nd while nice isn't something to chase after at the expense of other positions.........and I'm not sure about the difference between Fowler/Beasley and say an Eli Harold or Nate Orchard or Frank Clark or Davis Tull or Deion Barnes or Art Norman. Heck the top rookie edge rusher last year weren't first rounders they were 5th rounders.[/quote]

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1111134]wr's can be found anywhere in the draft. Look around the league and see how many mid rounders are playing. Elite pass rushers are much harder to find.[/quote]Any position can be found anywhere in the draft that statement doesn't really say anything.

You know which edge rushers led this rookie class in sacks? Jonathan Newsome and Aaron Lynch were tied with 6 sacks both were [B][I][U]5th[/U][/I][/B] round picks.

Meanwhile the 1st round rookie WRs are making a huge impact with the tougher pass interference rules.

This really isn't my point but since you brought it up it seems the opposite of your intention is true.

[quote]Obviously we still struggle to get off the field on 3rd down and getting a sack master seems to be a priority. Murphy simply didn't show that skill set last year[/quote]We really don't know what Murphy is right now good or bad. And the defense had a lot of issues last year not just OLB/edge rusher and for me the problems started on DL where we still only had 1 DL that could create any type of pressure or upfield penetration and a secondary that was giving up quick easy throws all day.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;1111147]Didn't 6 teams just draft a WR in the first Rd last year? If Cooper is the BPA, take him[/quote]

This whole BPA thing is overblown. What if the BPA in each round is a WR? Should SM draft seven WR's? Of course not. That would be ridiculous. Need must factor into the equation.

A good question to ask prior to the draft would be "Where do we need to get better?". Dallas drafted OL in the first round two years in a row and were criticized by the draft experts for their picks. Both of those players earned All-Pro honors and now Dallas has one of the better O-Lines in the NFL.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

^^ Exactly. I get that Cooper is a bit of a luxury (this year, not so much next year or the year after) AND that a explosive pass rusher to pair with Kerrigan would significantly improve the pass rush.

At the same time, neither Beasley, nor Fowler, nor Gregory, nor Ray stands out to me as a clear "This guy is a guaranteed game changer at the NFL level." In fact, each one has a good chance of being a bust. Cooper will not be a bust.

As for the "you can get WR's anywhere" argument, the same can be said for OLB or, for that matter, any position.

If you trust your talent evaluation, you take the BPA unless you do not and, in the next two to three years. Even then, if you have the BPA head and shoulders above the need play (for example - safety or OT in this year's draft), take the BPA. That's how you build long term, otherwise you have a team of mediocre talent always chasing risks.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

Good article on Cooper:

CFF Player Profile: Amari Cooper, WR
[url]https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/04/16/cff-player-profile-amari-cooper-wr/[/url]

[B][U]Overview and Stats[/U][/B]

It’s not too often you find a guy who is at the top of the per-snap metrics and the overall cumulative stats, but that’s how good Cooper was in last season. He led the FBS with 178 targets in 2014. He also led with 124 receptions. He led all draft eligible players with 1,727 yards, 16 touchdowns and 26 missed tackles by defenders forced. As impressive as all that is, those are cumulative numbers that can be skewed by a relentless targeting of a receiver. He also led all draft eligible players in yards per route run with 3.97, well clear of the next best player.

To put that into some perspective, here’s how it compares to the best players in the NFL in that category in 2014:
[IMG]https://pff-pffanalysisltd12.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/cff-profile-cooper-table.png[/IMG]

Obviously NFL receivers are working against a higher caliber of defensive back, but you can see how impressive those numbers from Cooper are. Even a player like Odell Beckham Jr, who missed time to start the season and then put up incredible numbers in his shortened playing time, can’t come close to the level of production Cooper had on a per-snap basis in the passing game.

Cooper led all draft eligible players in this regard while Kevin White, suggested by some as a better player overall, was 10th.

[B][U]The Tape[/U][/B]

So we know Cooper is productive, that much is almost self evident, but what are you getting if you take him in the draft, and why do we view him as a step above any other receiver in this draft?

You expect to be wowed by athleticism and physical traits when you turn on the tape of college receivers. If you watch Kevin White, or Dorial Green-Beckham, or Breshad Perriman those are the things that jump out. You’re watching superior athletes beating up on defensive backs that just can’t match their measurables. When you watch Cooper though that isn’t what stands out. That’s not to say he doesn’t have those measurables, but the things that stand out about his game are different.

He looks like a polished, veteran NFL receiver already. He can use his hands at the line to defeat the jam and contact from defensive backs like it’s already instinct. This is something most college receivers struggle with and it takes them a while to learn it in the NFL. Cooper is already a master. Teams practically gave up trying to jam him at all because he would just swat the corner’s arms away and then destroy him for quickness off the line while he was still reeling from the hand-duel.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

"I'm of the mindset that you a 34 defense "needs" 1 premium OLB pass rusher..."

That's not saying we need only 1 top-notch edge rusher?

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1111153]This whole BPA thing is overblown. What if the BPA in each round is a WR? Should SM draft seven WR's? Of course not. That would be ridiculous.[/quote]Of course it would be ridiculous but its also not nearly an accurate description of how BPA works.

Many people forget or don't realize that Best Player Available not only considers the other prospects in the draft BUT its also BPA vs other players on the team considering the prospect.

So lets say I run a 34 defense and my staff believes the base defense calls for 1 designated pass rusher and we feel the team already has a premium player/pro-bowl caliber player for that role. Come draft time for a base personnel pass rushing OLB to be the BPA they would need to be better then the player we already have.

OR more to your point

If a team has 3 WRs that fits the design of their offense or they considers pro-bowl caliber then they wouldn't keep drafting WRs.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

Im put out a crazy scenario. We trade down with the Vikings and pick up AP. We draft the Gregory or Shane Ray at 11.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1111154]^^ Exactly. I get that Cooper is a bit of a luxury (this year, not so much next year or the year after) AND that a explosive pass rusher to pair with Kerrigan would significantly improve the pass rush.

At the same time, neither Beasley, nor Fowler, nor Gregory, nor Ray stands out to me as a clear "This guy is a guaranteed game changer at the NFL level." In fact, each one has a good chance of being a bust. Cooper will not be a bust.

As for the "you can get WR's anywhere" argument, the same can be said for OLB or, for that matter, any position.

If you trust your talent evaluation, you take the BPA unless you do not and, in the next two to three years. Even then, if you have the BPA head and shoulders above the need play (for example - safety or OT in this year's draft), take the BPA. That's how you build long term, otherwise you have a team of mediocre talent always chasing risks.[/quote]

I guess I'm a "draft for need" guy, after all. Hell, I don't even want the #5 pick this year unless Leonard Williams is there when we pick. I would like something crazy to happen, like Mariota falling to us, so we can use the #5 pick to hold-up some other team for a bonanza of draft picks. We've got a lot of holes to fill.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

a different question: How many drop down trades would be too many. For example, dropping from 5 to 11 takes us from the true can't miss talent to good scouting gets you solid talent, and maybe find a gem. But does a 2nd trade from 11 to 16 take us out of that range, to just throwing darts talent. Suppose for those two trades you picked up 2 to 3 high caliber picks( rounds 1/2 this year or next) and 3-4 medium picks (rounds 3/4 this year)

would you stop after the first trade, would you gamble on the 2nd, and is it even in the realm to throw a 3 trade in?

Or no trade no way, no how?

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

I think the consensus is that this is a draft deep in talent beyond the first couple rounds at OL and OLB. Two areas of need. Also, again, I think the consensus is that there is a drop-off in talent after the first 5-6 picks, another drop after 12 and then talent from 13 to the middle of the second is pretty much equivalent and dependent on draft boards and need will play a bigger role in teams selections.

So, for all the reasons discussed about trusting in Scot McC and his work prior to this particular draft, I would want as many top 100 picks as we can get this year. I have a good feeling about any pick McC makes in the first three rounds and am not sure anyone in the top 10 who would be available to us is likely to be a long-term game changer. While I don't want to trade out of the first, a couple trade downs that land us a couple extra 2's and/or 3's is fine by me.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1111163]a different question: How many drop down trades would be too many. For example, dropping from 5 to 11 takes us from the true can't miss talent to good scouting gets you solid talent, and maybe find a gem. But does a 2nd trade from 11 to 16 take us out of that range, to just throwing darts talent. Suppose for those two trades you picked up 2 to 3 high caliber picks( rounds 1/2 this year or next) and 3-4 medium picks (rounds 3/4 this year)

would you stop after the first trade, would you gamble on the 2nd, and is it even in the realm to throw a 3 trade in?

Or no trade no way, no how?[/quote]

We need an infusion of talent across the roster. At this point if we picked up some 2nds and 3rds and moved down into the middle of Rd 1 I'd be ok. If we ended up with the middle 1st, a couple 2nds, a 3rd, and a 4th it would be worth it right now.

That's four potential impact picks and/or ammunition to move around and get specific guys we have targeted.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1111163]a different question: How many drop down trades would be too many. For example, dropping from 5 to 11 takes us from the true can't miss talent to good scouting gets you solid talent, and maybe find a gem. But does a 2nd trade from 11 to 16 take us out of that range, to just throwing darts talent. Suppose for those two trades you picked up 2 to 3 high caliber picks( rounds 1/2 this year or next) and 3-4 medium picks (rounds 3/4 this year)

would you stop after the first trade, would you gamble on the 2nd, and is it even in the realm to throw a 3 trade in?

Or no trade no way, no how?[/quote]

More picks equals more chances to hit on a starter but we shouldn't be trading too low:

[url=http://datascopeanalytics.com/what-we-think/2012/05/01/the-chance-of-a-bust-in-the-nfl-draft]The chance of a bust in the NFL draft | Datascope Analytics[/url]

Also why trading picks with Tampa Bay in the Goldson trade is negligible.

Re: With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...
 

If possible I would like 5 to 6 picks in the top 100 so I figure that takes at least 2 trade backs. McLovin do your thang.