Re: All things Middle East related
 

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/04/world/middleeast/surviving-isis-massacre-iraq-video.html?_r=1[/url]

Watch the video or read the article. Incredible story to say the least.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

The stuff with ISIS serves as a dose of reality for me, to snap me out of my naive, sheltered thoughts.

Sitting my home, impatiently waiting for my favorite football team to kick off, without a real care in the world. It's easy to forget how messed up some people are and how hard life is in some places. At least it is for me.

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[quote=tshile;1080466]The stuff with ISIS serves as a dose of reality for me, to snap me out of my naive, sheltered thoughts.

Sitting my home, impatiently waiting for my favorite football team to kick off, without a real care in the world. It's easy to forget how messed up some people are and how hard life is in some places. At least it is for me.[/quote]

It's been going on for a couple years and in the last year it's be prominent. Why is the us and the world late to these atrocities? These guys are monsters, why have we been sitting on our hands? Poor job by Obama and his administration

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[quote=Chico23231;1080490]It's been going on for a couple years and in the last year it's be prominent. Why is the us and the world late to these atrocities? These guys are monsters, why have we been sitting on our hands? Poor job by Obama and his administration[/quote]

Well that's an issue that's complicated, and way over my head :)

But to take a stab at it... generally speaking I think many countries are simply tired of getting involved. I think there's an unwritten level of turmoil in the region that is tolerated and the desire is that it never rise above that level, to the point of the rest of us having to intervene.

A desire to contain the issue and hope it just doesn't impact the rest of us.

In addition to that you have a lot of people who think the problem is not related specifically to Islam, but is a problem related to a tribal area. Lack of education, lack of a meaningful economy, lack of a stable government, etc all lead to these types of groups forming and having a strong following. You can count me in that group. It's not an easily solvable problem. I don't think the general public of the 'western' countries have the stomach required to actually go this route. It would require a huge commitment of resources, both money and military lives, to do so and I just don't think we have it in us. And at this point in my life I'm not entirely sure it would even be worth it, assuming there was a large chance of success. For an idea of what I'm talking about see - Afghanistan. It's a shame the focus of our media is always on the negative, there's a real success story going on in Afghanistan right now and we should be focused on helping them so all their sacrifice (and ours) isn't in vein and they don't devolve into the situation Iraq is in.

As I grow older I'm realizing it may actually be an unsolvable problem; that being that the only real solution would be to decimate the entire area. That is probably an untenable position in the global community and will be so until that area does something so egregious to the rest of the world that we can all finally say - enough is enough. I don't know that the terrorist organizations will ever actually achieve that, and I certainly don't hope for it, I've seen enough disgusting and traumatic terrorists attacks for my life time in my opinion.

But yes... this administration has, in my opinion, proven itself inept when it comes to foreign policy. To the point where it almost seems like our president simply doesn't even care... I don't know how you can say some of the things he's said (no strategy?) without simply not caring enough to involve yourself. Not to mention things said by people that have left the administration or military over the last few years...

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[url=http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/23/world/meast/isis-airstrikes/index.html?hpt=hp_t1]U.S. and Arab partners bomb ISIS in Syria - CNN.com[/url]

let it rain. I say dont stop at ISIS, include al queda targets as well as Assad regime. Blow it all up

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[url=http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/08/politics/jimmy-carter-obama-isis/index.html?hpt=hp_t2]Carter criticizes Obama on ISIS: 'We waited too long' - CNN.com[/url]

BOOM. JIMMY CARTER AND I AGREE. FINALLY SOME ONE MAKING SENSE

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[URL="http://nypost.com/2014/10/10/pregnant-teen-girls-who-joined-isis-weve-made-a-huge-mistake/"]Girls join ISIS, married and pregnant, and regretting it now.[/URL]
[IMG]http://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/jihad.jpg?w=300[/IMG]
[IMG]http://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/moresssss.jpg?w=300[/IMG]

It's not like ISIS, IS, whatever, ever hid the fact they are all about religious intolerance, executing suspected enemies, and treating women like cattle.

Feeling pity, but not a lot of sympathy here.

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[url=http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/16/world/asia/pakistan-peshawar-school-attack/index.html?hpt=hp_t1]Taliban storm Pakistan school; kill 130, mostly kids - CNN.com[/url]

When people ask why we over in the middle east killing these crazy ass people, just remember this story. unbelievable how these people justify these acts

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Meanwhile, the beat goes on in the Middle East.

[URL="http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/12/world/meast/isis-justification-female-slaves/index.html?sr=sharebar_twitter"]Can you take non-Muslim women and children captive? Yes, says ISIS.
Can you have sex with them, even prepubescent girls? Yes, according to the Islamist extremist group.
Can you sell them or give them as gifts to others? The answer is yes, once again.[/URL]

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anyone watch Netanyahu's speech?

a lot of rhetoric but no realistic solutions. he suggested we get a better deal out of Iran. Pretty sure we are working hard to get the best deal we can. No deal with Iran will appease Netanyahu's conservative hawk party.

very eerie moment when he said "israel will act alone" and he got a standing ovation.

Did republicans really just cheer on the idea that Israel should attack Iran and drag us unwillingly into WW3?

stop and think what you are cheering and encouraging.

US foreign policy should be dictated by a foreigner?
US foreign policy should be dictated and politicized by congress and not the POTUS?

republicans hate of pres Obama is blinding them.

[url=http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/obama-threatened-israeli-jets/2015/03/01/id/627575/]Report: Obama Threatened to Shoot Down Israeli Jets Attacking Iran[/url]

^^ obama literally had to threaten to shoot down israel war planes if they tried to attack Iran without US consent.

netanyahu is dead set on dragging us into a war.


pardon my language but netanyahu needs to fuck off. he has been an asshole to every US president and openly mocks kerry. fuck you netanyahu.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=over the mountain;1108221]anyone watch Netanyahu's speech?

a lot of rhetoric but no realistic solutions. he suggested we get a better deal out of Iran. Pretty sure we are working hard to get the best deal we can. No deal with Iran will appease Netanyahu's conservative hawk party.

very eerie moment when he said "israel will act alone" and he got a standing ovation.

Did republicans really just cheer on the idea that Israel should attack Iran and drag us unwillingly into WW3?

stop and think what you are cheering and encouraging.

US foreign policy should be dictated by a foreigner?
US foreign policy should be dictated and politicized by congress and not the POTUS?

republicans hate of pres Obama is blinding them.

[url=http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/obama-threatened-israeli-jets/2015/03/01/id/627575/]Report: Obama Threatened to Shoot Down Israeli Jets Attacking Iran[/url]

^^ obama literally had to threaten to shoot down israel war planes if they tried to attack Iran without US consent.

netanyahu is dead set on dragging us into a war.


pardon my language but netanyahu needs to fuck off. he has been an asshole to every US president and openly mocks kerry. fuck you netanyahu.[/quote]I keep wanting to reply to this drivel, and keep getting hung up on "WW3". Dude, stop drinking the kool-aid the Obama Administration and MSNBC keep giving you. World War 3 isn't happening because of anything involving Iran. You can stop hyperventilating trying to work up outrage against Isreal now.

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Surprised nobody has talked about the Iran-Nuclear deal. I know the GOP and Netanyahu are pissed, but that's because they don't get to blow up any brown people on this deal.

I'll give the white house props on trolling Netanyahu as well with this tweet:



[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CCF18IHW4AIqCC7.jpg:large[/IMG]



People need to realize that it isn't just Obama that wanted this deal. Several other countries have agreed upon this too.

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too bad iran's already hedging on whether they'll still agree to it in june. not sure if that's selling to their base or real backtracking.

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[quote=NC_Skins;1110864]Surprised nobody has talked about the Iran-Nuclear deal. I know the GOP and Netanyahu are pissed, but that's because they don't get to blow up any brown people on this deal.

I'll give the white house props on trolling Netanyahu as well with this tweet:



[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CCF18IHW4AIqCC7.jpg:large[/IMG]



People need to realize that it isn't just Obama that wanted this deal. Several other countries have agreed upon this too.[/quote]The deal is interesting. Worth a shot since so far the Iranians appear to be doing what they want anyways.

Just hope they don't keep being that way once the deal is signed. Correct me if wrong, but isn't a major fear that Iran will build up their infrastructure like a first world nuclear power more CAPABLE of making weapons on short notice, like Japan could do. So if there's any excuse Iran could break the treaty and produce weapons as quickly as if they had never stopped the development they are doing now?

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[quote=HailGreen28;1110882]The deal is interesting. Worth a shot since so far the Iranians appear to be doing what they want anyways.

Just hope they don't keep being that way once the deal is signed. Correct me if wrong, but isn't a major fear that Iran will build up their infrastructure like a first world nuclear power more CAPABLE of making weapons on short notice, like Japan could do. So if there's any excuse Iran could break the treaty and produce weapons as quickly as if they had never stopped the development they are doing now?[/quote]

Well, seeing as they'll have inspectors crawling up their ass, I doubt this seriously. Even if this did happen, Iran knows it would end up in the deal being nullified and military strikes happening. Iran is doing this so it can kick start it's economy. This alone is why Israel wants to stop Iran. It isn't about nuclear weapons because his own Mossad contradicted Netanyahu on Iran's capability. Netanyahu (and Saudi Arabia)doesn't want Iran becoming a economic force in the region. This is what this has been about the entire time. Economics.

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[quote=NC_Skins;1110887]Well, seeing as they'll have inspectors crawling up their ass, I doubt this seriously. Even if this did happen, Iran knows it would end up in the deal being nullified and military strikes happening. Iran is doing this so it can kick start it's economy. This alone is why Israel wants to stop Iran. It isn't about nuclear weapons because his own Mossad contradicted Netanyahu on Iran's capability. Netanyahu (and Saudi Arabia)doesn't want Iran becoming a economic force in the region. This is what this has been about the entire time. Economics.[/quote]I would think if it were about economics, sanctions would have driven Iran to agree to dismantle their nuke program, to haul stuff off like Libya rather than just put it in storage.

I heard energy production for Iran would be helped a lot by nuke plants, but they could just build more refineries for that.

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[QUOTE=NC_Skins;1110887]Well, seeing as they'll have inspectors crawling up their ass, I doubt this seriously. Even if this did happen, Iran knows it would end up in the deal being nullified and military strikes happening. Iran is doing this so it can kick start it's economy. This alone is why Israel wants to stop Iran. It isn't about nuclear weapons because his own Mossad contradicted Netanyahu on Iran's capability. Netanyahu (and Saudi Arabia)doesn't want Iran becoming a economic force in the region. This is what this has been about the entire time. Economics.[/QUOTE]
UN inspectors crawling up a closed society's ass...

Iran knows what would happen if the did produce a bomb...

Pretty funny stuff.
The outline of the outline of what might be agreed to already gives Iran the ability to put places off limits to inspectors so you can bet any ratifiable treaty will have at least some loopholes that Iran will take advantage of.

Iran knows what North Korea, Israel, Pakistan and India know, which is if they produce nuclear bombs no country is going to make them give it back.

All that said Iran doesn't want war with us, just like China and Russia don't, what they eachdo want is to control their region(s), and if we get in the way of that then they may decide to see exactly how much we are willing to give up to maintain influence.

Personally, Pres. Obama comes off much like Neville Chamberlain before WWII, or Wilson after WWI. So intent on denying other countries real political and cultural natures, in order to be seen as bringing peace to the globe, that they sign bad/dumb treaties and leave the world a more unstable place.



Sent from my S6 Edge

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1110920]UN inspectors crawling up a closed society's ass...

Iran knows what would happen if the did produce a bomb...

Pretty funny stuff.
The outline of the outline of what might be agreed to already gives Iran the ability to put places off limits to inspectors so you can bet any ratifiable treaty will have at least some loopholes that Iran will take advantage of.

Iran knows what North Korea, Israel, Pakistan and India know, which is if they produce nuclear bombs no country is going to make them give it back.

All that said Iran doesn't want war with us, just like China and Russia don't, what they eachdo want is to control their region(s), and if we get in the way of that then they may decide to see exactly how much we are willing to give up to maintain influence.

Personally, Pres. Obama comes off much like Neville Chamberlain before WWII, or Wilson after WWI. So intent on denying other countries real political and cultural natures, in order to be seen as bringing peace to the globe, that they sign bad/dumb treaties and leave the world a more unstable place.



Sent from my S6 Edge[/quote]Well I'm thinking that Iran sees that giving up nukes didn't work out well for the leaders of Ukraine and Libya. Course if the Iranians do care about economics, maybe tough enough sanctions to turn them into North Korea would be a deterrent? It would be nice to get agreement from the EU and Russia to do that if needed, if this is an option.

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I am shocked there is no more outrage over this....deal. I cannot figure any way Iran is not raining Nuc's on us and Israel at their first opportunity.
After all this is not the "Peace Loving Muslim" we are talking about. This is the American beheading, hostage taking, Death to all Iraeli's...Death to all Americans we are talking about.
Oh...I forgot, Worlds foremost sponsor of terrorism....Peace Loving Muslims.
And we are going to arm them with 150 Billion in sanction relief (which is probably the only reason they are at the bargaining table at all)
[url=http://www.wsj.com/articles/iran-inspections-in-24-days-not-even-close-1437521911]Iran Inspections in 24 Days? Not Even Close - WSJ[/url]
Oh and Inspectors up their ass??? Maybe after 6 months of BS delays or so in which time they will have had plenty of time to hide the whole F...n country.
Appears to be ....quite the Coup
No worries they have always proven to be a trustworthy partner....right?

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[quote=Hog1;1115482]I am shocked there is no more outrage over this....deal. I cannot figure any way Iran is not raining Nuc's on us and Israel at their first opportunity.
After all this is not the "Peace Loving Muslim" we are talking about. This is the American beheading, hostage taking, Death to all Iraeli's...Death to all Americans we are talking about.
Oh...I forgot, Worlds foremost sponsor of terrorism....Peace Loving Muslims.
And we are going to arm them with 150 Billion in sanction relief (which is probably the only reason they are at the bargaining table at all)
[url=http://www.wsj.com/articles/iran-inspections-in-24-days-not-even-close-1437521911]Iran Inspections in 24 Days? Not Even Close - WSJ[/url]
Oh and Inspectors up their ass??? Maybe after 6 months of BS delays or so in which time they will have had plenty of time to hide the whole F...n country.
Appears to be ....quite the Coup
No worries they have always proven to be a trustworthy partner....right?[/quote]

what's your solution then? nuke them first? the cold war ended without causing the end of the world, cause people decided that talking was better than nuclear holocaust. and honestly it could have ended quite a bit sooner. hap (arnold, USAF) was calling for pre-emptive nuclear war the whole time... i'm glad we decided not to go down that path.

maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but disengagement rarely yeilds good results in the long run. their leadership is not stupid and is a generally rational actor, even though their aims don't really match up with ours very often. (ie, they know launching nukes without testing at a country with interception capabilities is probably a bad idea).

we were the ones that destroyed their democracy and installed a puppet government that had a pretty terrible human rights record (which is a big part of why it was overthrown). so the argument that they'll bomb us is kind of glass house thinking (though they're definitely acted against us with militias/training in iraq etc). the best deterrent is using isreali/saudi arabia as watch dogs and missile shield sites, since they aren't very hip to iran in any way.

israel does have a legitimate concern though, since they'd be in close range.

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I am not sure I know the answer...But
negotiating with terrorists isn't it. And BTW was it not Obama who stated "I will not negotiate with terrorists"? That policy must have changed.
I think you can be assured the sanctions were working and probably the only thing that had the Peace loving (Death to all Israeli's and American's) muslims at the negotiating table to start with.
Are you really trying to compare the Psychotic beliefs and desires of the Peace Loving Jihadists with the Soviet Union?
Oh and check out the last paragraph of the article I posted. It states in spite of Kennedy's efforts in the sixties and the hard line we took with the Russians, within a few years they eclipsed the US in numbers of Nuc's (from a huge deficit fwiw).
But back to your original Q.
Not sure I know what the answer is....
BUT putting in the hands of.....providing the funding....the path......the way and means for the Planets most heinous terrorist country to DO what they wish (at every possible juncture state...Death to the West....Death to all Americans...Death to all Israeli's) seems like the height of insanity.
Oh wait, I promise we'll be good........--Iran

[URL="http://www.investigativeproject.org/4918/iranian-leader-encourages-death-to-america-chants#"]Iranian Leader Encourages 'Death to America' Chants After Nuclear Deal :: The Investigative Project on Terrorism[/URL]
[B]Iranian leader Ali Khamanei reiterated the "Death to America" and "Death to Israel" slogans and called the United States a state sponsor of terrorism in two public addresses marking the conclusion of the Eid Al-Fitr holiday, the Middle East Monitoring and Research Institute (MEMRI) reports.[/B]

[B]Last week, Iranian President Hassan Rouhani claimed that the world superpowers recognized a nuclear Iran immediately after the announcement of a deal regarding Iran's nuclear weapons program. He also boasted that Iran will maintain over 6,000 centrifuges.

It is important to emphasize that issues related to Iran's human rights record and global sponsorship of terrorism were not part of the negotiations. Many experts and critics of the deal believe that sanction relief and the lifting of weapons embargoes will enable the Islamic Republic to enhance its regional hegemonic ambitions and international terrorist activity.[/B]

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[quote]Are you really trying to compare the Psychotic beliefs and desires of the Peace Loving Jihadists with the Soviet Union? [/quote]

you mean the soviets that are currently occupying a foreign country while assassinating anyone that publicly challenges their leader?

and yes they overuse death to america the same way we overuse terrorist. but training militias isn't nearly as dire as nuclear war. The question is what's the best way to avoid that in the long term, engagement or hostility. in the most extreme it ends either with nukes or with both sides becoming uninterested in using them. we disagree with russia on a LOT of things, but neither side is looking at tossing warhead around, even though america is more hated by the russian population now than ever (due to their state owned "economic warfare" media coverage and all that).

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Your example is incomparable.
We as humans do silly things. As an example we as humans frequently want to extend to the wild animal world "human type" emotion. Not a good plan, as they do not have them. That is what frequently gets someone injured or killed by not exercising a modicum of caution when dealing with a wild creature. They're not like us.
That is the case between Iran and the USA.....[B]they're not like us[/B]. We cannot extend to them our system of beliefs or assume they will react or believe as we do. Political correctness might suggest otherwise but reality does not.
These people have no human rights policies the civilized world would recognize. No basic freedoms such as "speech" , "Religion"
The countries administration has been responsible for thousands of deaths for such crimes as "having a different opinion".
[B]Safety Tip:[/B] Don't get caught selling condoms...good for a public flogging
The combination of Islamic and Sharia practice is...Nothing an American would recognize, nor would anyone else since the Dark Ages (except an Iranian). Torture and murder are commonplace for things like a differing political opinion......Fornication. I would not do well with that one.
Sooooooo, NO. Saying we and they would "lose interest" in launching Nukes. I do not believe we have an interest in such behavior....ever.
BUT...[B]they're not like us[/B] According their continuous lamentations of "Death to the West" (and of course Israel) they would have no such restraints as do we.....launch and go to party with the virgins
Your example is incomparable. We made a ridiculous deal that will get ugly. We should expect no different from the World's Sponsor of Terrorism

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they do have a different system of beliefs, but you've got to understand, not dying in a nuclear fire is a pretty universal. We're not assuming they'll bow to our way of thinking, but be guided by self interest in not being invaded or blown up.

also you're assuming because they follow islam, they're not rational actors, which just hasn't been the case, even though their agenda definitely doesn't match our own.

it's neo-cold war paranoia. I'm not suggesting we trust them without verification or that this is guaranteed to work. but replace iran with blacks in your last post, and think about how small minded it would be.

what's the other option? let them continue to develop nukes unchecked? invade them? (i hope you're ready to serve, cause we'd probably be looking at a draft). close your eyes and hope everything works out? I mean, if there's an alternate path to engagement of some kind, i'd love to hear it.

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[quote=That Guy;1115627]they do have a [B]different system of beliefs[/B], but [B]you've got to understand[/B], not dying in a nuclear fire is a pretty universal. We're not assuming they'll bow to our way of thinking, but be guided by [B]self interest in not being invaded or blown up.
[/B]
also you're [B]assuming[/B] because they follow islam, they're not rational actors, which just [B]hasn't been the case[/B], even though their agenda definitely doesn't match our own.

it's neo-cold war paranoia. I'm not suggesting we trust them without verification or that this is guaranteed to work. but [B]replace iran with blacks[/B] in your last post, and think about how small minded it would be.

what's the other option? let them continue to develop nukes unchecked? invade them? (i hope you're ready to serve, cause we'd probably be looking at a draft). close your eyes and hope everything works out? I mean, if there's an alternate path to engagement of some kind, i'd love to hear it.[/quote]

Totally unconcerned with different system of beliefs as there are many nations on this planet different from us and we coexist nicely. Concerned only with their track record, actions and Promises...(like Death to America like being chanted on Parliament floor during Peace and Nuclear talks)....lol
[URL="http://www.wnd.com/2015/06/iranian-parliament-chants-death-to-america/"]Iranian parliament chants ‘Death to America’[/URL]
Check out Jihadism......You just get dead. THEY get the Virgins. Oh yea, this is from a people who routinely strap bombs to woman and children to kill hundreds of innocents to advance their peace loving Muslim message.
What does this PC racist BS have to do with anything?
What would I do?....doesn't matter. Throwing our hands in the air giving up is certainly not the answer. Obama made an amazing deal....if your Iranian.
BTW....these are the same Peace Loving rational acting Muslims that STILL hold 4 American hostages?

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you're arguing emotionally, so this is kinda becoming circular and pointless.

you're also basically saying all muslims are evil and out to kill us, and assuming engagement is giving up. you can't have any rational discussion with such sweeping generalizations and false premises.

being iranian doesn't make you subhuman, not every muslim believes in blowing themselves up or destroying the world. I mean I could point out how the bible says that divorced women who remarry should be stoned to death, that rape is generally considered the women's fault etc, but that doesn't mean that every christian believes and practices that (though there are more violent muslims right now, part of that is due to weak national identity/government control (egypt/the old iraq have/had less issues with crazies, religion is filling the power gap the way christianity did in the middle ages, when christians were, well, extremely violent). they'd probably point to gitmo and our leaders talk about invasion the way you're harping on death to america.

you've got to realize that some issues are more important than others and not cut off the big issue over relatively minor ones.

I also think you don't understand rational actors. iran as a state acts in it's own self interest, ie it doesn't want nukes dropped on it's soil or it's people starving. it has nothing to do with those 4 prisoners, that's the micro scale. they also aren't going to be america's puppet, we already tried that, it didn't work out.

anyways, I can't/won't try to fix you're raging xenophobia, but basically you're point is "i hate iranians, i hate this deal, i have no idea what i want to see, rage rage rage" and I don't exactly know what I'm supposed to do with that, so.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

Here's the thing, I think there's truth to both points.

TG - rational actors aside, you are "westerpormorphizing" the Iranian state. On the international scale, sure, there is the basic survival instinct, but, at the cultural level, this is a society that acts, rationalizes, and, has core values very different from our own. I am not saying all Muslims hate the US or want to blow us up BUT the current Iranian state is not a democracy in the western sense but rather a theocratic democracy - you are free to vote for whichever of the imams' candidates you like best. It is founded on principles that are fundamentally opposed to true individual liberty. Ultimately, Iran is an anti-democratic state that has very different method of determining its international priorities than countries with western style democracies. Further, when a state believes divine inspiration plays a [I]direct[/I] role in its policy making decisions, as Iran does, it is simple blindness or naiveté' to think they will be bound by western liberal democratic concepts of what a rational actor would do on the international stage. At its core, a theocracy simply has a different definition of "rational" than that of true democracies.

Secondly, and in addition to the inherent irrationality of theocratic states, there is a real and tangible hatred of America in Iran. Sure, individual citizens may have no desire to strap on a bomb and blow up Americans, but, on a cultural state level, America has never ceased to be "The Great Satan" to Iran and Iranians. I have spoken to several individuals who have been there, and they are consistent in their descriptions of the deep and abiding, cultural dislike for and distrust of America by Iranians as a whole (yes, I know it is anecdotal).

Any dealings with the Iranian state must recognize these two basic truths: (1) theocracies are not bound by traditional western concepts of "rational actors"; and (2) the cultural and state level hatred existing in Iran for America and our culture is a real and guiding force in their international actions. Failure to recognize these truths and pretending Iran is just another rational state actor on the international stage is naïve or obtuse.

But ... as TG said, if not engagement, then what? Hog1 - I do not trust that they will abide by any treaty provisions, but, unless we are willing to nuke or invade (which I, personally, am not), our only option is to talk and keep a foot in the door. The alternative is to let them stockpile and proliferate absolutely unchecked.

I am sure they are playing us with this treaty, we should do our best to return the favor.

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Fundamentally Obama has stated the deal is necessary because the trade sanctions won't keep Iran from developing and implementing nukes....but the punishment for breaking deal is...what? Oh yea, more trade sanctions....wtf?
FWIW, I would endorse talking and a "deal" because I would not nuke their ass nor do I advocate BOTG for now. The deal has potential but O F'd us with the absurd loopholes conducive for launchwear production.
24day-6 month notice for inspection?
Bullshit, unlimited inspection without notice. We can start with some reality like this and build on it. In it's current form it is more useless garbage from O which may well be cost us, the West and Israel at the hands of the Peace Loving Muslims......

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[quote=Hog1;1115769]Fundamentally Obama has stated the deal is necessary because the trade sanctions won't keep Iran from developing and implementing nukes....but the punishment for breaking deal is...what? Oh yea, more trade sanctions....wtf?
FWIW, I would endorse talking and a "deal" because I would not nuke their ass nor do I advocate BOTG for now. The deal has potential but O F'd us with the absurd loopholes conducive for launchwear production.
24day-6 month notice for inspection?
Bullshit, unlimited inspection without notice. We can start with some reality like this and build on it. In it's current form it is more useless garbage from O which may well be cost us, the West and Israel at the hands of the Peace Loving Muslims......[/quote]

read the speech from today, it addresses these things. we've got international backing from a lot of nations for these sanctions specifically to halt advancement on nuclear weapons. if we back out, those sanctions fall apart and it makes it harder to get people to agree the next time we want to push something else (whether iran related or not) because they'll be less trusting of our ability to keep our commitments.

also, the inspection window is 24 hours to 24 days, no country is going to allow unlimited zero notice inspections.

also the gulf states military budgets FAR exceed iran's.

it's all been addressed pretty much point by point.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1115737]Here's the thing, I think there's truth to both points.

TG - rational actors aside, you are "westerpormorphizing" the Iranian state. [/quote]

I really don't think I am. I've been around the area, and i'm not saying there aren't people there that hate us, or that they don't act against our interests in a lot of cases.

if you have some examples of irrational behavior though, please do share (and not irrational from our point of view). not talk, but actual action.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

really good conversation guys. I agree with most.

I agree w Joe that we cannot expect Iran to think and make decisions in the same manner we think and make decisions. I read a good article which had a quote that China's diplomatic approach to us is that everything we do is reasonable and rational. Most "reasonable and rational" people have a bend but dont break approach to disagreement. china knows that we wont do anything rash or in haste and uses this to their advantage. basically we are very predictable.

i agree w that guy in that Iran is not full of death to america thinking people. i have never been there but ive had a few friends from iran. they are a very young population and like most young people, they want to be in touch with the world. the avg age is 27.1 years old. with that said, i dont think they necessarily want Mcdonalds at every corner. i view Iran as a very proud and historically a very influential culture. i think there is a power struggle to an extent of wanting to respect the ayatollah while wanting to be modern and connected to the world.

iran and saudi arabia are the 2 power groups and i respect iran a lot more than saudi arabia. the 9/11 guys were from saudi arabia. SA has a small population, shitty army and has shown its true colors by publicly flirting with russia in retaliation for us negotiating with iran.

fuck SA. (sorry to bring the intelligent discussion down)

i apologize if i misrepresented what anyone's points were.

-------------------------------------

big picture for me = we need to respect regional powers to have some sway over their regions - china, russia, iran, EU - all should be able to exert some control over their regions. we just need to keep our military modern and ahead of anyone else bc we are they Super Power.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

I agree that Iran is not going to just one day turn around and nuke us. That said, all global wars start locally. And there are a LOT of local tensions building up in 3 distinct areas, China/south sea, Russian western border, and specific to here the Saudi Iranian tension. And because in Russia and Iran specifically there is the government sanctioned propaganda that demonizes the US, its not hard to imagine scenarios where a client state or entity misinterprets or actively pushes upper limits of the major regional powers into irrational actions.

When, for example, Iran takes billions of dollars from the release of sanctions money and feeds it to non state organizations that seek the destabilization or destruction of Israel, and that entity decides attacking us interests is a means to that end. Would Iran acknowledge and take appropriate actions or would we have to respond.

I know that is a hypothetical but my point is that in regional conflicts tensions and missteps are far more likely than on a global scale. And Iran having an influx of money, power and status reminds me a lot of Chamberlains thinking that by appeasing a state that has intents on regional domination you create an environment for peace.

I think you just foster a more dangerous world.

Sent from my S6 Edge

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=That Guy;1115776]read the speech from today, it addresses these things. we've got international backing from a lot of nations for these sanctions specifically to halt advancement on nuclear weapons. if we back out, those sanctions fall apart and it makes it harder to get people to agree the next time we want to push something else (whether iran related or not) because they'll be less trusting of our ability to keep our commitments.

also, the inspection window is 24 hours to 24 days, no country is going to allow unlimited zero notice inspections.

also the gulf states military budgets FAR exceed iran's.

it's all been addressed pretty much point by point.[/quote]
Ill check it out

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1115790]I agree that Iran is not going to just one day turn around and nuke us. That said, all global wars start locally. And there are a LOT of local tensions building up in 3 distinct areas, China/south sea, Russian western border, and specific to here the Saudi Iranian tension. And because in Russia and Iran specifically there is the government sanctioned propaganda that demonizes the US, its not hard to imagine scenarios where a client state or entity misinterprets or actively pushes upper limits of the major regional powers into irrational actions.

When, for example, Iran takes billions of dollars from the release of sanctions money and feeds it to non state organizations that seek the destabilization or destruction of Israel, and that entity decides attacking us interests is a means to that end. Would Iran acknowledge and take appropriate actions or would we have to respond.

I know that is a hypothetical but my point is that in regional conflicts tensions and missteps are far more likely than on a global scale. And Iran having an influx of money, power and status reminds me a lot of Chamberlains thinking that by appeasing a state that has intents on regional domination you create an environment for peace.

I think you just foster a more dangerous world.

Sent from my S6 Edge[/quote]
As you are pointing out, it is a ridiculous thought to imagine Iran would curtail rather than expand it's vast terror agenda with the flood of NEW "sanction" money......

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Hog1;1115803]As you are pointing out, it is a ridiculous thought to imagine Iran would curtail rather than expand it's vast terror agenda with the flood of NEW "sanction" money......[/quote]

also covered:
[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/08/05/text-obama-gives-a-speech-about-the-iran-nuclear-deal/]Full text: Obama gives a speech about the Iran nuclear deal - The Washington Post[/url]


a lot of the money would be going towards infrastructure and social programs where they have shortfalls now, but there's no doubt some of it would end up with the military or going towards groups we'd rather it not go to. but you've got to take care of the first order problems first.

the general jist is we're not naive, this doesn't solve every problem, don't trust - verify, we're not taking other options off the table if this doesn't work, but we've got to at least try.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[QUOTE=That Guy;1115819]also covered:
[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/08/05/text-obama-gives-a-speech-about-the-iran-nuclear-deal/]Full text: Obama gives a speech about the Iran nuclear deal - The Washington Post[/url]


a lot of the money would be going towards infrastructure and social programs where they have shortfalls now, but there's no doubt some of it would end up with the military or going towards groups we'd rather it not go to. but you've got to take care of the first order problems first.

the general jist is we're not naive, this doesn't solve every problem, don't trust - verify, we're not taking other options off the table if this doesn't work, but we've got to at least try.[/QUOTE]
I think Pres. Obama's foreign policy throughout his tenure has been naive. There is no reason to believe that under this agreement Iran's actions regarding there nuclear intentions will change. And their spending while sanctions have been in place shows where their priorities are, and it isn't social infrastructure. Sure they will spend a portion for of the released money on it+ but they also will have easier access and ability to fund organizations that intend to do harm to the Iraq, Saudi and Israeli states.

My concern is that this open the region to a very dangerous non nuclear arms race. And that will be very bad.

Sent from my S6 Edge

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I think the nuclear deal with Iran is not tough enough...but there is some good things in there. Folks tend forget past deals with Iran, and that frankly is quite stupid. Would u continue to do business with an entity that continues not to follow thru or flat out work against you? Folks this isn't rocket science, these guys r our enemy. Miseducation of our voting public is disturbing.

Oh and chuck schumer is coming out against the deal. Is that big? Let's just say is massive. Black eye for Kerry and Obama

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Chico23231;1115906]I think the nuclear deal with Iran is not tough enough...but there is some good things in there. Folks tend forget past deals with Iran, and that frankly is quite stupid. Would u continue to do business with a business or entity that continues not to follow thru or flat out work against you? [B]Folks this isn't rocket science, these guys r our enemy. [/B]Miseducation of our voting public is disturbing.

Oh and chuck schumer is coming out against the deal. Is that big? Let's just say is massive. Black eye for Kerry and Obama[/quote]

Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner.

You can parse it any which way you like, but the bolded statement is the bottom line.

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[quote=JoeRedskin;1115908]Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner.

You can parse it any which way you like, but the bolded statement is the bottom line.[/quote]

With out a doubt I agree with the highlight statment but there are some good things , very good things in this agreement,when do you take a chance?

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=That Guy;1115776]read the speech from today, it addresses these things. we've got international backing from a lot of nations for these sanctions specifically to halt advancement on nuclear weapons. if we back out, those sanctions fall apart and it makes it harder to get people to agree the next time we want to push something else (whether iran related or not) because they'll be less trusting of our ability to keep our commitments.
ives
also, t[B]he inspection window is 24 hours to 24 days[/B], no country is going to allow unlimited zero notice inspections.

also the gulf states military budgets FAR exceed iran's.

it's all been addressed pretty much point by point.[/quote]

That does not appear to be the case as any party in the agreement can open a dispute at their discretion.
Maybe Obama forgot that in his speech?
It appears to give great latitude (and potentially months of "dispute process") to resolve. Not enough teeth and way to much BS to allow the PL Iranians to hide behind.

Negotiating with terrorists.....be damned, WTF are we doing letting this deal go down with 4 American hostages in Iranian prisons?
We should not have agreed to these terms. Perhaps we would have fared better if the Israeli's had negotiated our end.
This country is our enemy and as made no attempt to hide it. They have stated daily...hourly they will only rest when Israel, the West and specifically the U.S.A. have been wiped off the earth.
We treated it like a meeting at Ford motor with the UAW
WTF are we doing allowing any country to gain control of the assets that will be released to these maniacs to be subsequently...........used on us?