Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

Some gun enthusiasts will cite studies indicating that gun control laws embolden criminals. Those studies, however, rarely, if ever, distinguish between correlation and causation. Those studies rarely, if ever, account for other factors such as economic conditions, social changes (e.g., drug use), etc.

In any case, to me this debate fundamentally comes down to one issue. Criminals get their guns by either: (1) legally purchasing their firearms; or (2) illegally obtaining weapons that were legally procured. Some think that the way to mitigate the problem of guns falling into criminals' hands is to encourage the proliferation of weapons. Others believe that the proliferation of firearms is the problem, not the solution. I, of course, fall into the latter category.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;454835]Some gun enthusiasts will cite studies indicating that gun control laws embolden criminals. Those studies, however, rarely, if ever, distinguish between correlation and causation. Those studies rarely, if ever, account for other factors such as economic conditions, social changes (e.g., drug use), etc.

In any case, to me this debate fundamentally comes down to one issue. Criminals get their guns by either: (1) legally purchasing their firearms; or (2) illegally obtaining weapons that were legally procured. [B]Some think that the way to mitigate the problem of guns falling into criminals' hands is to encourage the proliferation of weapons. Others believe that the proliferation of firearms is the problem, not the solution. I, of course, fall into the latter category.[/B][/QUOTE]

I don't think that's a fair statement. Those who believe in gun rights don't necessarily believe the answer to solve crime is the "proliferation of weapons". Not all law abiding people have guns. Nobody believes people who don't want guns [I]must[/I] have them. Certainly individuals with a criminal history, and those with a history of mental illness shouldn't have access to firearms. So that's quite different from believing in "the proliferation of weapons."

We believe law abiding citizens shouldn't be denied their fundamental right to defend themselves with a gun if they want one. We maintain that the problem would be much worse if the unarmed innocent have to depend on the mercy of the armed thug.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=Beemnseven;454847]I don't think that's a fair statement. Those who believe in gun rights don't necessarily believe the answer to solve crime is the "proliferation of weapons". Not all law abiding people have guns. Nobody believes people who don't want guns [I]must[/I] have them. Certainly individuals with a criminal history, and those with a history of mental illness shouldn't have access to firearms. So that's quite different from believing in "the proliferation of weapons."

We believe law abiding citizens shouldn't be denied their fundamental right to defend themselves with a gun if they want one. We maintain that the problem would be much worse if the unarmed innocent have to depend on the mercy of the armed thug.[/quote]
Its funny that the same people who site the constitution for other freedoms which they think are important (freedom of speech, gather etc...) seem to dismiss it for other people rights to own guns.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;454861]Its funny that the same people who site the constitution for other freedoms which they think are important (freedom of speech, gather etc...) seem to dismiss it for other people rights to own guns.[/QUOTE]

It's equally funny that people who so easily dismiss issues like wiretapping, gitmo, etc. get so upset when people discuss taking away their guns.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=firstdown;454861]Its funny that the same people who site the constitution for other freedoms which they think are important (freedom of speech, gather etc...) seem to dismiss it for other people rights to own guns.[/quote]
I have often found it curious (and some other things) that many people seem unconcerned when freedoms go away, if the enjoyment of that freedom is not important to them directly.
It is another freedom gone...........

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=724Skinsfan;454818]I think you've just solved both issues with one post. I wonder how many tobacco farmer's own guns in which the purpose is to protect their property? I'll bet 98%. If we restrict their ability to protect their property by taking away their guns then we'd see much, much less tobacco being produced. By ensuring that tobacco farmer's have no way of defending themselves from a home invasion we can assume that their deaths will in fact save nearly 5 million lives.[/quote]
Yea, there's a big demand for raw tobaco and these farmers have to fight of theives everyday. I bet that maybe 98% probably own guns but they are for hunting not tobaco theives. Now yes they would use them for protection but I don't think thats why they really own guns.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;454847]Certainly individuals with a criminal history, and those with a history of mental illness shouldn't have access to firearms. So that's quite different from believing in "the proliferation of weapons."[/QUOTE]

I never said that gun enthusiasts want EVERYONE to get guns. I said they believe that the spread of guns in society is a good thing. For example, after the VT shootings, we all heard chants "well if the students were armed." I just happen to think that putting more guns out there to combat the guns that are out there is friggin crazy.

Moreover, why did the NRA spend millions to oppose the Brady bill, which merely required people trying to buy handguns to wait 5 days while a background check was conducted? Why does the NRA oppose background checks for guns sold at gun shows? The NRA and gun nuts do a lot of talking when it comes to keeping guns out of criminals' hands, and then turn around and do their best to fight laws designed to stop guns from getting into criminals' hands.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;454864]It's equally funny that people who so easily dismiss issues like wiretapping, gitmo, etc. get so upset when people discuss taking away their guns.[/quote]
I did not know that these people at Gitmo (who by the way would love to cut off your head) had an constitutional rights because they are not in the US nor are US citzens.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;454869]I did not know that these people at Gitmo (who by the way would love to cut off your head) had an constitutional rights because they are not in the US nor are US citzens.[/QUOTE]

Well the high court [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boumediene_v._Bush"]thinks[/URL] they do.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

the same people that are ok with the stripping of our rights( wiretapping) voted for this yo yo in office. so its all good

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=dmek25;454890]the same people that are ok with the stripping of our rights( wiretapping) voted for this yo yo in office. so its all good[/quote]
This wiretapping is not what people make it out to be and has been blowing way out of wack. The program involves monitoring international phone calls and emails to and from the US INVOLVING PEOPLE WITH SUSPECTED TIES TO TERRORISTS. WOW, they want to hear what someone might be saying to someone over seas because they think they could be link to TERRORISTS. That might not be a bad idea and a highly doubt that anyone of us or anybody we know are on that list. If your on that list you probably deserve to be and I hope they are monitoring you activities. The way its been made out is that the are wiretapping everyones phone or emails. Good thing they made this public so we could warn the terrorist of another way we might catch them.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=firstdown;454866]Yea, there's a big demand for raw tobaco and these farmers have to fight of theives everyday. I bet that maybe 98% probably own guns but they are for hunting not tobaco theives. Now yes they would use them for protection but I don't think thats why they really own guns.[/quote]

firstdown just fell victim to another of 724Skinsfan nonsensical posts. :)

The 724Skinsfan family has been growing and/or leasing land for tobacco crops for about 180 years. The guns are indeed used to hunt and, to a lesser extent, protect their moonshine stills.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;454910]This wiretapping is not what people make it out to be and has been blowing way out of wack. The program involves monitoring international phone calls and emails to and from the US INVOLVING PEOPLE WITH SUSPECTED TIES TO TERRORISTS. WOW, they want to hear what someone might be saying to someone over seas because they think they could be link to TERRORISTS. That might not be a bad idea and a highly doubt that anyone of us or anybody we know are on that list. If your on that list you probably deserve to be and I hope they are monitoring you activities. The way its been made out is that the are wiretapping everyones phone or emails. Good thing they made this public so we could warn the terrorist of another way we might catch them.[/QUOTE]

First, you must have access to some top secret information, because the precise scope and nature of the secret wiretapping program has not been made public. What we do know is that AG Gonzalez said they were wiretapping the lines of "people who the government had a reasonable basis to believe were involved in terrorist activities." Every lawyer will tell you that "reasonable basis" is an INCREDIBLY easy threshhold to satisfy.

Second, the merits of the wiretapping program is not at issue. What is at issue is how many conservatives narrow the scope of Constitutional protections when it comes to the war on terrorism and very broadly define it when dealing with the 2nd Amendment.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;454913]First, you must have access to some top secret information, because the precise scope and nature of the secret wiretapping program has not been made public. What we do know is that AG Gonzalez said they were wiretapping the lines of "people who the government had a reasonable basis to believe were involved in terrorist activities." Every lawyer will tell you that "reasonable basis" is an INCREDIBLY easy threshhold to satisfy.

Second, the merits of the wiretapping program is not at issue. What is at issue is how many conservatives narrow the scope of Constitutional protections when it comes to the war on terrorism and very broadly define it when dealing with the 2nd Amendment.[/quote]
So what you really think they are tapping line of the everyday Joe blow and listening in on his conversation?

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;454913]First, you must have access to some top secret information, because the precise scope and nature of the secret wiretapping program has not been made public. What we do know is that AG Gonzalez said they were wiretapping the lines of "people who the government had a reasonable basis to believe were involved in terrorist activities." Every lawyer will tell you that "reasonable basis" is an INCREDIBLY easy threshhold to satisfy.

[B]Second, the merits of the wiretapping program is not at issue. What is at issue is how many conservatives narrow the scope of Constitutional protections when it comes to the war on terrorism and very broadly define it when dealing with the 2nd Amendment[/B].[/quote]
great post sheriff. right on point

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;454913]Second, the merits of the wiretapping program is not at issue. What is at issue is how many conservatives narrow the scope of Constitutional protections when it comes to the war on terrorism and very broadly define it when dealing with the 2nd Amendment.[/quote]

That pretty much sums it up right there.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;454915]So what you really think they are tapping line of the everyday Joe blow and listening in on his conversation?[/QUOTE]

Of course not. I don't know who they wiretapped or what formula they relied upon in determining who should be subject to a wiretap and, except for a few select individuals, neither does anyone else.

I just think it is interesting that so many people trust the government to do the right thing [U]without any oversight[/U] when it comes to certain issues AND zealously guard their right to bear arms in the event this government gets to the point where it needs to be overthrown. How can people say with a straight face that they don't care about or want to know about a major spying program that may infringe on our constitutional rights and then say they need guns because they don't fully trust our government?

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;454933]Of course not. I don't know who they wiretapped or what formula they relied upon in determining who should be subject to a wiretap and, except for a few select individuals, neither does anyone else.

I just think it is interesting that so many people trust the government to do the right thing [U]without any oversight[/U] when it comes to certain issues AND zealously guard their right to bear arms in the event this government gets to the point where it needs to be overthrown. How can people say with a straight face that they don't care about or want to know about a major spying program that may infringe on our constitutional rights and then say they need guns because they don't fully trust our government?[/QUOTE]

Well, the most glaring difference is the intangibility of the wiretapping vs the tangibility of having to physically give up guns. If the government said, "ok, you can no longer have any phone conversations regarding such-and-such", it would make the comparisons much more precise and clear. Then you would have people up in arms (literally? :)). But, until then, people go along with it because they do not feel something is being taken from them. IMO, until something like that occurs, the only ones that will be upset about it are the ones that are already upset about it, right or wrong.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;454933]Of course not. I don't know who they wiretapped or what formula they relied upon in determining who should be subject to a wiretap and, except for a few select individuals, neither does anyone else.

I just think it is interesting that so many people trust the government to do the right thing [U]without any oversight[/U] when it comes to certain issues AND zealously guard their right to bear arms in the event this government gets to the point where it needs to be overthrown. How can people say with a straight face that they don't care about or want to know about a major spying program that may infringe on our constitutional rights and then say they need guns because they don't fully trust our government?[/quote]
I don't recall very many people saying they want the right to defend themself against the goverment they want the right to defend themself in general. There are also things that we do not need to know because it renders the program useless. What should have happened with the wiretapping issue is that the president and congress should have worked this out behind closed doors. Now that it is all over the pappers I'm sure terrorist have taken steps to make it harder to trace their phone ussage. I believe it was the New York Times which broke the story and when they got word that the president was going to stop them from printing the story they put it on their website before the goverment could stop them. That speaks will well of how this papper views the safty of this country. It was more important for them to get at Bush then to hear why they did not want the story to run or how it could jeperdize our safty. The same thing happend to the president when they had survalance on Bin Ladens phone someone leaked the info then the press ran the story. I don't support everything Bush has done but fighting terrorist he has done a great job. Its the left and the media that has hamppered these efforts every chance they have had only for political gains. By the way they passed a law in 2007 giving the Pesident the right to Tapp phones of susspected terrorist and was backed by a bunch of dems.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;454937]I don't recall very many people saying they want the right to defend themself against the goverment they want the right to defend themself in general.[/QUOTE]

I've seen several posts in this thread which talk about the need to protect ourselves from government tyranny.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;454938]I've seen several posts in this thread which talk about the need to protect ourselves from government tyranny.[/quote]
I'm not going to re-read the post but the majority are for having the right to defend themself in general.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;454867]I never said that gun enthusiasts want EVERYONE to get guns. [B]I said they believe that the spread of guns in society is a good thing.[/B] For example, after the VT shootings, we all heard chants "well if the students were armed." I just happen to think that putting more guns out there to combat the guns that are out there is friggin crazy.

Moreover, why did the NRA spend millions to oppose the Brady bill, which merely required people trying to buy handguns to wait 5 days while a background check was conducted? Why does the NRA oppose background checks for guns sold at gun shows? The NRA and gun nuts do a lot of talking when it comes to keeping guns out of criminals' hands, and then turn around and do their best to fight laws designed to stop guns from getting into criminals' hands.[/QUOTE]

See, we're reaching an impasse here, because you seem to think that proponents of gun rights favor "the spread of guns in society" or that we believe in the "proliferation of weapons" when in reality, all we want is the right to own a firearm if we want one to defend ourselves. Personally, I'd like it if only the good guys had guns. Going a step further, I wish we could live in utopian la-la land where weapons of any kind aren't necessary because we are all peace-loving flower children. But I realize that will never be possible. I just don't want a situation where the law abiding are unilaterally disarmed, while the violent predators of society can declare open season on anyone and everyone knowing that they have no way to defend themselves.

As far as the NRA goes, they opposed the 5-day waiting period because our rights should not be subject to a waiting period. Should there be a five day wait for you to voice an opinion, to express yourself politically?

At the most basic level, SGG, don't you have the fundamental, human right to defend yourself against an attacker? If someone tries to punch you in the face, is it your position that you morally have no basic right to punch back? Are you a pacifist?

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;454975]See, we're reaching an impasse here, because you seem to think that proponents of gun rights favor "the spread of guns in society" or that we believe in the "proliferation of weapons" when in reality, all we want is the right to own a firearm if we want one to defend ourselves.[/QUOTE]

Proponents of gun rights generally oppose any gun control laws. For example, as you note, the NRA opposes a 5 day waiting period for background checks. Usually the people who need a gun within the next 5 days are the types of people who should be forced to wait an eternity to get a gun. Proponents of gun rights also generally subscribe to the theory that our society would be safer if more people were packing heat (hence their opposition to conceal & carry restrictions). So, if proponents of gun rights are not in favor of the proliferation of weapons, they damn sure are not advocating for restricting access to them.


[QUOTE=Beemnseven;454975]As far as the NRA goes, they opposed the 5-day waiting period because our rights should not be subject to a waiting period. Should there be a five day wait for you to voice an opinion, to express yourself politically?[/QUOTE]

The NRA opposes just about any limitations on access to guns. That they oppose a 5 day period for a background check and "cooling off" scares me. As for your free speech analogy, I don't think the two are even in the same ballpark.

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;454975]At the most basic level, SGG, don't you have the fundamental, human right to defend yourself against an attacker? If someone tries to punch you in the face, is it your position that you morally have no basic right to punch back? Are you a pacifist?[/QUOTE]

I obviously believe that everyone has the right to defend oneself against attack. However, I don't believe that the right of self-defense is synonymous with the right to have unlimited access to firearms. I also believe that when criminals are buying weapons legally or illegally acquiring weapons that were once purchased legally, you don't solve the problem by making weapons easier to obtain.

Finally, I think shotguns and rifles should be legal. I think almost all other firearms should be illegal.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;454980]Proponents of gun rights generally oppose any gun control laws. For example, as you note, the NRA opposes a 5 day waiting period for background checks. Usually the people who need a gun within the next 5 days are the types of people who should be forced to wait an eternity to get a gun. Proponents of gun rights also generally subscribe to the theory that our society would be safer if more people were packing heat (hence their opposition to conceal & carry restrictions). So, if proponents of gun rights are not in favor of the proliferation of weapons, they damn sure are not advocating for restricting access to them.

The NRA opposes just about any limitations on access to guns. That they oppose a 5 day period for a background check and "cooling off" scares me. As for your free speech analogy, I don't think the two are even in the same ballpark.

I obviously believe that everyone has the right to defend oneself against attack. However, I don't believe that the right of self-defense is synonymous with the right to have unlimited access to firearms. I also believe that when criminals are buying weapons legally or illegally acquiring weapons that were once purchased legally, you don't solve the problem by making weapons easier to obtain.

Finally, I think shotguns and rifles should be legal. I think almost all other firearms should be illegal.[/QUOTE]

As has been pointed out over and over in excruciating detail, gun control doesn't work because it only applies to the law abiding. Criminals will not abide by a five day waiting period or any other form of gun control by virtue of the fact that they are criminals. Therefore, only the innocent, law abiding citizens will have to jump through all the legal hoops, while thugs can run rampant with any type of firearm they want without restriction. Disarming the law abiding, leaving them without any effective means to protect themselves will only make the problem far, far worse.

Intelligent people can disagree, but I see our fundamental rights to speak freely, express ourselves politically, and to safeguard those fundamental rights by force against tyranny, as one in the same.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

Every time I read this thread I always ask myself, "What do the people in England think about their gun ban?". Finally, I googled the question and came upon this fairly interesting piece:

[yt]qGVAQOUi6ec[/yt]

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;454997]As has been pointed out over and over in excruciating detail, gun control doesn't work because it only applies to the law abiding.[/QUOTE]

As you might expect, I disagree. For example, a 5 day waiting period for a background check burdens the innocent and the guilty. The innocent are burdened with waiting less than one week to obtain a handgun. Felons are burdened because they can't got to the nearest gun store to buy a hangun. Sure the felons can try to buy a gun on the black market, but the innocent can buy a shotgun or a rifle if they desperately need a firearm within a week. So, I fail to see how the innocent are so woefully burdened by the 5 day waiting period; provided they don't desperately need to blow someone away with a 9mm instead of a shotgun slug.

Gun control laws also restrict the sale of fully automatic, high caliber machine guns. Are the innocent really so burdened by not having ready access to anti-aircraft guns like a fully automatic 50 caliber browning machine gun? Those gun control laws seem to have a damn good job keeping heavy machine guns off of the black market.

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;454997]Criminals will not abide by a five day waiting period or any other form of gun control by virtue of the fact that they are criminals. Therefore, only the innocent, law abiding citizens will have to jump through all the legal hoops, while thugs can run rampant with any type of firearm they want without restriction.[/QUOTE]

Jump through what legal hoops? Show a driver's license, fill out a form, and wait 5 days to purchase a handgun instead of a 12 gauge? Would you rather there be no background checks whatsoever so a felon can walk into the neighborhood store and buy a uzi?

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;454997]Disarming the law abiding, leaving them without any effective means to protect themselves will only make the problem far, far worse.[/QUOTE]

The gun control laws on the books only disarm felons and persons who shouldn't be in possession of firearms. So, I don't know who you think is being unjustifiably disarmed.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=724Skinsfan;455004]Every time I read this thread I always ask myself, "What do the people in England think about their gun ban?". Finally, I googled the question and came upon this fairly interesting piece:[/QUOTE]

I came up with [URL="http://www.gallup.com/poll/16990/Britons-Aim-Tougher-Gun-Laws.aspx"]this[/URL].

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[URL]http://www.sfu.ca/~mauser/papers/LondonTower2003/Fig2ViolCrime-EW.xls.pdf[/URL]

Guns were banned in 1997 and violent crime rates increased dramatically.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=steveo395;455009][URL]http://www.sfu.ca/~mauser/papers/LondonTower2003/Fig2ViolCrime-EW.xls.pdf[/URL]

Guns were banned in 1997 and violent crime rates increased dramatically.[/QUOTE]

I bought my first car 12 years ago and my aunt died the next week. The lesson being, your aunt will die if you buy a car.

Sorry to be a smart ass, but those stats don't prove anything.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

True. I think a good stat would be showing, as a percentage, whether the number of gun related deaths/injuries went up or down since 1997. Quick. Someone tech savvy find that out and report back.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=724Skinsfan;455004]Every time I read this thread I always ask myself, "What do the people in England think about their gun ban?". Finally, I googled the question and came upon this fairly interesting piece:

[yt]qGVAQOUi6ec[/yt][/QUOTE]

Excellent, excellent find and post.
40% increase in firearm crimes! wow.
One of those protesters stuck out in my mind with his sign that read "I LOVE my country, but I fear my government".

If that is not evidence that we need to keep guns, then what is?

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;455006]I came up with [URL="http://www.gallup.com/poll/16990/Britons-Aim-Tougher-Gun-Laws.aspx"]this[/URL].[/QUOTE]

Sorry SSG, but that article does not help your argument. OF COURSE they want stricter gun laws, look at how their crimes INCREASED. Who wouldn't want the gun laws to be stricter when crime is rampant because of short sighted politicians.
It's been said 100 times here, but the only people you will hurt with stricter gun laws are the law abiding. England is proof.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;455010]

but those stats don't prove anything.[/QUOTE]

How do they not prove anything? I am all for hearing your take on this, cause it seems this argument is just about put to bed with these stats. Of course, it's hard to fully judge without a valid argument to the contrary...but so far your arguments to this have been smoke and mirrors at best. So please tell us why these stats don't prove anything.
(disclaimer, I am being 100% genuine, not sarcastic)

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

LOL where does this ridiculous fear of the government come from anyway? That's a pretty stupid reason to support the need for guns IMO.

Let's say hell freezes over and the gov't decides to take over... whatever the hell that means, what are you and your shotgun going to do anyway?

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=Mattyk72;455073]LOL where does this ridiculous fear of the government come from anyway? That's a pretty stupid reason to support the need for guns IMO.

Let's say hell freezes over and the gov't decides to take over... whatever the hell that means, what are you and your shotgun going to do anyway?[/quote]
I just don't see that agrument being made in this conversation but some people do believe that notion. I just feel we have a right to own a gun. I myself do not own a gun but if I need one for some reason I want to be able to buy one. I don't have any problem with having manditory training, back ground checks etc... but just let me have the right to protect my family.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;455070]How do they not prove anything? I am all for hearing your take on this, cause it seems this argument is just about put to bed with these stats. Of course, it's hard to fully judge without a valid argument to the contrary...but so far your arguments to this have been smoke and mirrors at best. So please tell us why these stats don't prove anything.
(disclaimer, I am being 100% genuine, not sarcastic)[/QUOTE]

The stats do not prove anything because it does not establish a [U]causal[/U] relationship between the gun laws and crime. If I told you that the SEC increased securties fraud prosecutions in 2007 and the weather in 2008 was much nicer than in 2007, would you believe that securities fraud prosecutions improve weather conditions?

Since you have decided to label my arguments "smoke and mirrors," let me just say that most of the arguments I've seen around here sound like cheap talking points of the NRA (e.g., "gun control laws only hurt the innocent").

Finally, I don't think you really want to get into a comparison between the U.S. and the U.K. with regard to gun control laws. In the U.S., it is extremely easy to gain access to firearms. In the U.K., it is difficult to gain access to firearms. The U.S. gun crime stats make us look like a third world country in the midst of a civil war when compared with U.K. gun crime stats.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=firstdown;455077]I just don't see that agrument being made in this conversation but some people do believe that notion. I just feel we have a right to own a gun. I myself do not own a gun but if I need one for some reason I want to be able to buy one. I don't have any problem with having manditory training, back ground checks etc... but just let me have the right to protect my family.[/quote]

I'm not picking on jsarno but he just said:

[quote]One of those protesters stuck out in my mind with his sign that read "I LOVE my country, but I fear my government".

If that is not evidence that we need to keep guns, then what is?[/quote]

I've seen other similar opinions I just don't feel like digging through this thread right now.

I'm not trying to be a jerk I'm just curious what people are afraid of exactly regarding the gov't, and what is a gun going to do to protect yourself if the gov't was "out to get you".

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;455077]I just don't see that agrument being made in this conversation but some people do believe that notion. I just feel we have a right to own a gun. I myself do not own a gun but if I need one for some reason I want to be able to buy one. I don't have any problem with having manditory training, back ground checks etc... but just let me have the right to protect my family.[/QUOTE]

That's a reasonable position. I just have serious issues with the notion that the government shouldn't be allowed to conduct background checks, must legalize fully automatic rifles, etc.

Also, there was another gun control thread in which people made impassioned posts about the possible need to rebel against the government. I was waiting for posts about how the U.N. is planning to invade our country and make us all speak Mandarin Chineses.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;455080]I'm not picking on jsarno but he just said:



I've seen other similar opinions I just don't feel like digging through this thread right now.

I'm not trying to be a jerk I'm just curious what people are afraid of exactly regarding the gov't, and what is a gun going to do to protect yourself if the gov't was "out to get you".[/QUOTE]

Just for the record, my comment about "If that is not evidence that we need to keep guns, then what is?" was about the ENTIRE post, not the guy holding the sign.
I'm not thinking the government is "out to get me", but I think the government can and does make decisions with short sighted thoughts. If people scream loudly enough, they are usually heard, but the government should be quick to look into things more thoroughly, such as how other countries have faired getting rid of their firearms, or even how certain laws being passed have affected the publics reactions. Decisions are too often made becuase of political stature, or give and take, not because the subject was debated with an open mind. Most of this problem is our governmental system, but the point still remains.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=jsarno;455088]Just for the record, my comment about "If that is not evidence that we need to keep guns, then what is?" was about the ENTIRE post, not the guy holding the sign.
I'm not thinking the government is "out to get me", but I think the government can and does make decisions with short sighted thoughts. If people scream loudly enough, they are usually heard, but the government should be quick to look into things more thoroughly, such as how other countries have faired getting rid of their firearms, or even how certain laws being passed have affected the publics reactions. Decisions are too often made becuase of political stature, or give and take, not because the subject was debated with an open mind. Most of this problem is our governmental system, but the point still remains.[/quote]

The way you worded it you seemed to be commenting on the sign and what it said as a reason to keep guns... but either way I still don't understand how that's a logical take on the topic.