Re: NFL Training Camp thread!
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1119579]Inside a room accessible only to Belichick and a few others, they found a library of scouting material containing videotapes of opponents' signals, with detailed notes matching signals to plays for many teams going back seven seasons. Among them were handwritten diagrams of the defensive signals of the Pittsburgh Steelers, including the notes used in the January 2002 AFC Championship Game won by the Patriots 24-17.][/quote]

Don't think for a second that you won't find the same in every baseball scouting office in the country..

Re: NFL Training Camp thread!
 

[quote=RedskinJake;1119583]Don't think for a second that you won't find the same in every baseball scouting office in the country..[/quote]


Again, I think that is just a throwaway line, that doesn't mean anything. People say "everyone does it", but then can offer no proof to that. Nor can they explain why[B] no other team[/B] gets caught. Or that NFL teams take special precautions vs the Pats that they do not take vs everybody else.

Re: NFL Training Camp thread!
 

[quote=RedskinJake;1119583]Don't think for a second that you won't find the same in every baseball scouting office in the country..[/quote]

As Hijinx said, then show me someone else who got caught.

Also, I don't give two damns if "everybody does it," there is right and wrong. BB knew it was wrong, Goodell knew it was wrong (everything in the room was destroyed, shredded, etc. almost immediately).

I acknowledge the existence of gray areas. Hell, as a lawyer, that's where I spend most of my time - if everything was clear cut, I'd be out of job. If all a person has is the "everybody does it" defense, however, they are intellectually lazy and a moral coward.

Not to put too fine a point on it.

Re: NFL Training Camp thread!
 

My point isn't so much that "everyone does it" as much as "no one really cares".. unless you are a specific team from the Boston area.

We live in a society today where everyone is told that they are just as good as the other guy so when the other guy is beating them, then cheating is the obvious reason why. Doing those things helps you gain an advantage, sure but the gains are small. BB is competitive. Competitive to a fault. If he can get a .01% advantage doing something he will do it. I respect that. These aren't new ideas in football.. They just haven't been a big deal until it came to a team that wins a lot.

We know for a fact that Jerry Rice used stickum, that other teams have tampered with radios, that other QBs have had air taken out of footballs. None of these things has bothered anyone except when the Patriots were the benefactor. Then all of a sudden people want to believe that those are the reasons they or their team were beat.. There are 1000 variables each week. Gaining a small advantage here or there isn't going to change the outcome of a game nearly as much as everyone thinks.

Taping walkthroughs? OK.. that one is a no-go..

Re: NFL Training Camp thread!
 

[U]It didnt effect games[/U] - Rams, Eagles, panthers and Steelers disagree

a. "Our players came in after that first half and said it was like [the Patriots] were in our huddle," a Panthers source says. During halftime -- New England led 14-10 -- Carolina's offensive coordinator, Dan Henning, changed game plans because of worries the Patriots had too close a read on Carolina's schemes. And, in the second half, the Panthers moved the ball at will before losing 32-29 on a last-second field goal. "Do I have any tape to prove they cheated?" this source says. "No. But I'm convinced they did it."

b. Ward told reporters that Patriots inside information about Steelers play calling helped New England upset Pittsburgh 24-17 in the January 2002 AFC Championship Game. "Oh, they knew," Ward, now an NBC analyst who didn't return messages for this story, said after Spygate broke. "They were calling our stuff out. They knew a lot of our calls. There's no question some of their players were calling out some of our stuff."

c. January 2005 AFC Championship Game, which was won by the Patriots 41-27, came from stolen signals because Pittsburgh hadn't changed its signals all year, sources say, and the two teams had played a game in the regular season that Walsh told investigators he believes was taped. "They knew the signals, so they knew when it went in what the coverage was and how to attack it," says a former Steelers coach. "I've had a couple of guys on my teams from New England, and they've told me those things."

d. "To this day, some believe that we were robbed by the Patriots not playing by the rules ... and knowing our game plan," a former Eagles football operations staffer says.

[U]Everyone was doing it[/U] - not to BB level

"It got out of control," a former Patriots assistant coach says.

A former Patriots employee who was directly involved in the taping system says [B]"it helped our offense a lot[/B]," especially in divisional games in which there was a short amount of time between the first and second matchups, making it harder for opposing coaches to change signals.

Several of them acknowledge that during pregame warm-ups, a low-level Patriots employee would sneak into the visiting locker room and steal the play sheet, listing the first 20 or so scripted calls for the opposing team's offense.

Numerous former employees say the Patriots would have someone rummage through the visiting team hotel for playbooks or scouting reports.

"Why would they go to such great lengths for so long to do it and hide it if it didn't work?" a longtime former executive says.

Re: NFL Training Camp thread!
 

[quote=over the mountain;1119610][U]It didnt effect games[/U] - Rams, Eagles, panthers and Steelers disagree

a. "Our players came in after that first half and said it was like [the Patriots] were in our huddle," a Panthers source says. During halftime -- New England led 14-10 -- Carolina's offensive coordinator, Dan Henning, changed game plans because of worries the Patriots had too close a read on Carolina's schemes. And, in the second half, the Panthers moved the ball at will before losing 32-29 on a last-second field goal. "Do I have any tape to prove they cheated?" this source says. "No. But I'm convinced they did it."

b. Ward told reporters that Patriots inside information about Steelers play calling helped New England upset Pittsburgh 24-17 in the January 2002 AFC Championship Game. "Oh, they knew," Ward, now an NBC analyst who didn't return messages for this story, said after Spygate broke. "They were calling our stuff out. They knew a lot of our calls. There's no question some of their players were calling out some of our stuff."

c. January 2005 AFC Championship Game, which was won by the Patriots 41-27, came from stolen signals because Pittsburgh hadn't changed its signals all year, sources say, and the two teams had played a game in the regular season that Walsh told investigators he believes was taped. "They knew the signals, so they knew when it went in what the coverage was and how to attack it," says a former Steelers coach. "I've had a couple of guys on my teams from New England, and they've told me those things."

d. "To this day, some believe that we were robbed by the Patriots not playing by the rules ... and knowing our game plan," a former Eagles football operations staffer says.

[U]Everyone was doing it[/U] - not to BB level

"It got out of control," a former Patriots assistant coach says.

A former Patriots employee who was directly involved in the taping system says [B]"it helped our offense a lot[/B]," especially in divisional games in which there was a short amount of time between the first and second matchups, making it harder for opposing coaches to change signals.

Several of them acknowledge that during pregame warm-ups, a low-level Patriots employee would sneak into the visiting locker room and steal the play sheet, listing the first 20 or so scripted calls for the opposing team's offense.

Numerous former employees say the Patriots would have someone rummage through the visiting team hotel for playbooks or scouting reports.

"Why would they go to such great lengths for so long to do it and hide it if it didn't work?" a longtime former executive says.[/quote]

I'm not saying it didn't help but I question just how much it really changed the outcome of games.

Call it cheating if you want but there isn't a team in professional sports that isn't doing some of those types of things I assure you.. Has BB taken it too far? Maybe but he didn't invent this stuff.. He's just the one who keeps getting caught and the one people are more than happy to hang out to dry. But he's not the only one..

Re: NFL Training Camp thread!
 

[quote=Hijinx;1119560]I don't know if I can call sneaking into opposing locker rooms and hotel rooms to steal playbooks/game material as "bending" the rules.

And I do not believe that "everyone does it" line.[/quote]


So is it cheating if when the opposing team is playing in your stadium and you open the main field access door to create a cross wind ?

Re: NFL Training Camp thread!
 

This is a fun site .


[url=http://yourteamcheats.com/WAS]The Washington Redskins Complete Cheating History - Your Team Cheats - The Definitive Guide to NFL Cheating[/url]

Re: NFL Training Camp thread!
 

yeah, we exceeded the salary cap in an uncapped year, such cheating. oh and frank wychek got busted for PEDs in 1994.

pretty weak stuff.

Re: NFL Training Camp thread!
 

[quote=That Guy;1119619]yeah, we exceeded the salary cap in an uncapped year, such cheating. oh and frank wychek got busted for PEDs in 1994.

pretty weak stuff.[/quote]

No kidding. We don't even cheat very well!

Re: NFL Training Camp thread!
 

[quote=Giantone;1119616]So is it cheating if when the opposing team is playing in your stadium and you open the main field access door to create a cross wind ?[/quote]


Is there a specific rule about that like there is a rule about the PSI of game balls and NOT taping signals? Because those 2 things are in the NFL rule book.

Re: NFL Training Camp thread!
 

[quote=That Guy;1119619]yeah, we exceeded the salary cap in an uncapped year, such cheating. oh and frank wychek got busted for PEDs in 1994.

pretty weak stuff.[/quote]

I'm still pissed off about that one.. How did we exceed a cap that didn't exist? I was absolutely sure that was going to the courts.

Re: NFL Training Camp thread!
 

Bradford and eagles have broken off contract extension talks.

Re: NFL Training Camp thread!
 

[quote=kingj;1119633]Bradford and eagles have broken off contract extension talks.[/quote]

Saw that this morning.. for a guy with a saran wrap ACL, he's taking a big risk.. but possibly with a big payoff if he can play well and stay healthy for a while..

Re: NFL Training Camp thread!
 

Interesting quote from that cheating website:

Said former Pittsburgh Steelers head coach Bill Cowher, "We had people that always tried to steal signals. Stealing someone's signals was a part of the game, and everyone attempted to do that." Admitted former Dallas Cowboys head coach Jimmy Johnson: "When I came into the NFL, back in 1989, I talked to a Kansas City scout and he said, 'Here's what we do, we videotape the opposing team's signals and then we sync it up with the game film.' So I did it." Bragged, former Denver Broncos head coach Mike Shanahan: "Our guy keeps a pair of binoculars on their signal-callers every game, with any luck, we have their defensive signals figured out by halftime. Sometimes, by the end of the first quarter

Also....
Prior to the September 6, 2006 memo and, 2007 follow up, from NFL head of football operations Ray Anderson, there was no league restriction on filming location, which is the reason the memo was sent.

And I find it interesting that the only time the skins made the playoffs or any noise in the NFL, they had to cheat the salary cap.