Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;455079]The stats do not prove anything because it does not establish a [U]causal[/U] relationship between the gun laws and crime. If I told you that the SEC increased securties fraud prosecutions in 2007 and the weather in 2008 was much nicer than in 2007, would you believe that securities fraud prosecutions improve weather conditions?[/quote]

Well, your argument is apples and oranges in regards to the weather, but I do understand your point.
However, it's hard to completely ignore the direct relation here is it not?

[quote]Since you have decided to label my arguments "smoke and mirrors," let me just say that most of the arguments I've seen around here sound like cheap talking points of the NRA (e.g., "gun control laws only hurt the innocent"). [/quote]

Is that supposed to devalue the argument? The NRA has one goal in mind (obviously), so to use some of their arguments (not saying anyone is) is not a bad thing. Point being, it's only the validity that matters.

[quote]Finally, I don't think you really want to get into a comparison between the U.S. and the U.K. with regard to gun control laws. In the U.S., it is extremely easy to gain access to firearms. In the U.K., it is difficult to gain access to firearms. The U.S. gun crime stats make us look like a third world country in the midst of a civil war when compared with U.K. gun crime stats.[/QUOTE]
In the UK, it is only difficult to guns if you're law abiding, but yet they have more issues because of it.
I am unsure of your point with your last sentence, cause as someone just posted, the UK has MUCH worse stats than we do and they have much stricter gun laws. Their laws backfired on them. Their intent was good, sure, but the outcome was horrendous. So please explain further what you are meaning by your last sentence, cause I am not getting your intent.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;455081]That's a reasonable position. I just have serious issues with the notion that the government shouldn't be allowed to conduct background checks, must legalize fully automatic rifles, etc.[/QUOTE]

For the record, I am all for background checks, and a waiting period for any gun, rifle or not. I am against taking guns out of the hands of the innocent, and if you truly are innocent, then a background check won't hurt you.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;455089]The way you worded it you seemed to be commenting on the sign and what it said as a reason to keep guns... but either way I still don't understand how that's a logical take on the topic.[/QUOTE]

I am assuming you are still talking about my comment on the sign, so to clarify my point, the government thought they were doing everyone right by implimenting these laws, but it totally backfired on them which made the UK citizens wary of the decision makers in the country. If you watched the whole video you would have seen the man that is in jail for life because he protected himself from intruders for the 3rd time that year. So it's not like the government helped out here. If you think that protest was bad in England, try that here and see what happens. You try getting broken into 3 times, and when you finally put a stop to it, and when the dust settles, the government is pointing at you as the person that was wrong and see where you sit on the subject. (not you personally matty, just you in general) I totally understand why they are upset at the government. They made a mistake and now they need to correct it.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=Mattyk72;455080]I'm not picking on jsarno but he just said:



I've seen other similar opinions I just don't feel like digging through this thread right now.

I'm not trying to be a jerk I'm just curious what people are afraid of exactly regarding the gov't, and what is a gun going to do to protect yourself if the gov't was "out to get you".[/quote]
A gun can be used to fight back if the government becomes oppressive. This isn't happening now, but you never know what could happen sometime in the future. Thats the reason why this was put in the Bill of Rights.

How do you think Hitler rounded up all of the jews? He confiscated all of their guns so they couldn't fight back.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;455090]In the UK, it is only difficult to guns if you're law abiding, but yet they have more issues because of it.
I am unsure of your point with your last sentence, cause as someone just posted, the UK has MUCH worse stats than we do and they have much stricter gun laws. Their laws backfired on them. Their intent was good, sure, but the outcome was horrendous. So please explain further what you are meaning by your last sentence, cause I am not getting your intent.[/QUOTE]

I am too lazy to look up gun crime stats in the U.K. v. the U.S., but I can say with 100% certainty that there are far more incidents involving guns in the U.S. than in the U.K. (both in terms of raw numbers and on a per capita basis).

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;455108]I am too lazy to look up gun crime stats in the U.K. v. the U.S., but I can say with 100% certainty that there are far more incidents involving guns in the U.S. than in the U.K. (both in terms of raw numbers and on a per capita basis).[/quote]
Well you would also need to look up the punishment that goes along with gun crimes. I'd bet that if we looked the countries with the tougher laws also have the lower crime rates so they go hand in hand.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;455073]LOL where does this ridiculous fear of the government come from anyway? That's a pretty stupid reason to support the need for guns IMO.

Let's say hell freezes over and the gov't decides to take over... whatever the hell that means, what are you and your shotgun going to do anyway?[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Angry people will stop an oppressive government -- armed or not. Guns aren't necessary (or effective) for that.

I am a gun supporter. I own a handgun. I have no noble reason for owning it. I certainly didn't buy it to "protect" myself. I might not even be able to use it against someone, if the need should ever arise. My biggest fear is that it could be used against me. I would never carry it "just in case" -- it's too risky.

However, I enjoy target shooting. That's fair.

I would never support a government ban on guns. Regulation is fine. I would probably never support a government ban on anything. In my opinion, that is not within the government's rights. I don't believe they should have the power to ban something -- only regulate.

It's a dangerous situation when the government starts banning something. Just the arrogance of such a thought is disturbing. Regulation is one thing, but banning is totally different.

For the record, I support regulation.

<<waits for bashing>>

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=GhettoDogAllStars;455113]I would probably never support a government ban on anything. In my opinion, that is not within the government's rights. I don't believe they should have the power to ban something -- only regulate.[/QUOTE]

The government bans all sorts of things, including access to nukes, tanks, mines, crack, meth, junk, etc.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;455108]I am too lazy to look up gun crime stats in the U.K. v. the U.S., but I can say with 100% certainty that there are far more incidents involving guns in the U.S. than in the U.K. (both in terms of raw numbers and on a per capita basis).[/QUOTE]

I guess you missed this...it was already posted by someone:
[url]http://www.sfu.ca/~mauser/papers/LondonTower2003/Fig2ViolCrime-EW.xls.pdf[/url]

I seriously doubt that the way Violent crimes went up, the gun crimes didn't. Of course that link is not gun crimes per se, but it's a fairly good stat to see what happened after the gun laws occured in the UK.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;455134]I guess you missed this...it was already posted by someone:
[url]http://www.sfu.ca/~mauser/papers/LondonTower2003/Fig2ViolCrime-EW.xls.pdf[/url]

I seriously doubt that the way Violent crimes went up, the gun crimes didn't. Of course that link is not gun crimes per se, but it's a fairly good stat to see what happened after the gun laws occured in the UK.[/QUOTE]

That's about "violent crime," not gun related crimes. If you can show me, for example, that more people are killed per year on a per capita basis in the UK by guns than in the U.S., I'll give you a picture of me kissing my own ass.
According to sites that I don't think are very reputable (hence no links), there are about 50 gun deaths in the U.K. every year and 30,000 in the U.S. Those stats could be wrong, but I can't find any good links.

Maybe our crime rate is so much higher becaise of a-holes like [URL="http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/07/01/roland.martin/index.html"]this[/URL].

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

Did someone just use Hitler and Genocide to support their affinity for the right to bare arms?

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

Here's an [URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576406/28-gun-crimes-committed-in-UK-every-day.html"]article[/URL] that talks about gun related crime in the UK. Gun related crime actually increase and higher now than 10 years ago. Surprisingly, there were only 49 gun related deaths last year there.

[URL="http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs08/hosb0108.pdf"]Here's the full report by the British government. [/URL]

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;455146]That's about "violent crime," not gun related crimes. If you can show me, for example, that more people are killed per year on a per capita basis in the UK by guns than in the U.S., I'll give you a picture of me kissing my own ass.
According to sites that I don't think are very reputable (hence no links), there are about 50 gun deaths in the U.K. every year and 30,000 in the U.S. Those stats could be wrong, but I can't find any good links.

Maybe our crime rate is so much higher becaise of a-holes like [URL="http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/07/01/roland.martin/index.html"]this[/URL].[/quote]
It doesn't really matter if it is a gun crime or not. Violent crime increased (which may not all be with guns) because the criminals know that people don't have guns to defend themselves. If you were going to rob somebody, wouldn't you rather do it in England because you know whoever you are going after doesn't have a gun to defend themselves. If you thought they had a gun, you wouldn't rob them.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=steveo395;455172]If you thought they had a gun, you wouldn't rob them.[/QUOTE]

I guess you don't live near a high crime area. A lot of gun-toting drug dealers get robbed, murdered, beat down, etc. I would venture to guess that many young male victims of crime in high crime areas have weapons.

There goes that theory.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;455174]I guess you don't live near a high crime area. A lot of gun-toting drug dealers get robbed, murdered, beat down, etc. I would venture to guess that many young male victims of crime in high crime areas have weapons.

There goes that theory.[/quote]
I'm talking about a criminal going after an average citizen, not drug dealers going after each other. If your going to rob someone, you would go after the guy without a gun over the guy with a gun.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;455117]The government bans all sorts of things, including access to nukes, tanks, mines, crack, meth, junk, etc.[/QUOTE]

I realize government bans lots of things. I just don't really support the idea. Extreme regulation is acceptable for me. If I want to own a tank, I should be allowed to. Sure, I'd have to prove my competence, and I probably wouldn't have any legal place to drive it (other than my own land), but I don't think the government has the right to say I can't buy one -- or build one myself.

The bottom line is, I think the government has the authority to impose restrictions to protect the people, and facilitate commerce. Beyond that, they have no just reason to impose a law. So, unless they could prove that me owning a tank would threaten the safety of others, I don't think they have any right to prevent me from doing so.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;455146]That's about "violent crime," not gun related crimes. If you can show me, for example, that more people are killed per year on a per capita basis in the UK by guns than in the U.S., I'll give you a picture of me kissing my own ass.
According to sites that I don't think are very reputable (hence no links), there are about 50 gun deaths in the U.K. every year and 30,000 in the U.S. Those stats could be wrong, but I can't find any good links.

Maybe our crime rate is so much higher becaise of a-holes like [URL="http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/07/01/roland.martin/index.html"]this[/URL].[/QUOTE]

Why are you so focused on gun related DEATH, and could care less about gun related CRIMES? I felt the need to capitalize death and crimes cause you apparently have been missing it. I don't recall, and I don't feel like reading through my posts, but I thought I said of course the deaths here would be higher since they have much stricter gun laws, but gun crimes have gone up considerably and that has already been proven.
So is it safe to assume you could care less about robberies, and muggings and anything related to people using guns in relation to crimes??? Cause I thought the whole point of gun control is to stop gun related CRIMES, not just gun related DEATHS?
To me, it's much more important to stop ALL gun related crimes. Stopping gun related deaths is just a part of stopping all gun related crimes. However, no person here has come up with any good solution to stopping the gun related crimes, just a lot of speculation, and it's clear that getting the guns out of the hands of the innocent is a bad idea and it INCREASES gun related crime. So if you can come up with a solution to stop gun related crimes, I'm all ears.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;455264]Why are you so focused on gun related DEATH, and could care less about gun related CRIMES? I felt the need to capitalize death and crimes cause you apparently have been missing it. I don't recall, and I don't feel like reading through my posts, but I thought I said of course the deaths here would be higher since they have much stricter gun laws, but gun crimes have gone up considerably and that has already been proven.
So is it safe to assume you could care less about robberies, and muggings and anything related to people using guns in relation to crimes??? Cause I thought the whole point of gun control is to stop gun related CRIMES, not just gun related DEATHS?
To me, it's much more important to stop ALL gun related crimes. Stopping gun related deaths is just a part of stopping all gun related crimes. However, no person here has come up with any good solution to stopping the gun related crimes, just a lot of speculation, and it's clear that getting the guns out of the hands of the innocent is a bad idea and it INCREASES gun related crime. So if you can come up with a solution to stop gun related crimes, I'm all ears.[/QUOTE]

Where exactly did you, or anyone else, prove that any changes in gun laws led to an increase in crime? You seem to have an awfully hard time distinguishing between causation and correlation.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;455356]Where exactly did you, or anyone else, prove that any changes in gun laws led to an increase in crime? You seem to have an awfully hard time distinguishing between causation and correlation.[/QUOTE]

First, I have to acknowledge that I have not read this entire thread, but I have read some interesting arguments.

In response to Sheriff's quote, here is an excerpt from an article about gun control:

If gun control laws have any effect, it may be to increase crime. For instance:19

* New Jersey adopted what sponsors described as "the most stringent gun law" in the nation in 1966; two years later, the murder rate was up 46 percent and the reported robbery rate had nearly doubled.

* In 1968, Hawaii imposed a series of increasingly harsh measures and its murder rate, then a low 2.4 per 100,000 per year, tripled to 7.2 by 1977.

* In 1976, Washington, D.C., enacted one of the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation. Since then, the city's murder rate has risen 134 percent while the national murder rate has dropped 2 percent.

If anyone is interested in reading the article, the link can be found here:
[url=http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st/st176/s176c.html]NCPA - Policy Report 176 - Myths About Gun Control[/url]

As for my own opinions about gun control, here goes. I own two handguns. I own a blue card (licence to purchase a handgun). I am well trained in gun safety and a good shot on a gun range. I do keep a gun in my home for protection (I don't have kids, and if, for instance, my nephews were coming over, the clip would be removed and the gun locked up.)
Recently, there was an incident at my home where someone wasn't satisfied in attempting to get my attention by screaming outside of my house and decided to open my bedroom window. I didn't shoot him. I screamed bloody murder for him to leave and filed a complaint. However, had this not deterred him, I take comfort in the fact that I have the ability to protect myself.
As for the issue of the average citizen being able to carry a concealed weapon, I disagree. I believe anyone applying for a permit to carry should go through rigorous safety, ability, and accuracy training (as is required in Rhode Island). Otherwise, any idiot is more likely to blow their own foot off rather than actually have to defend themself.

That's just my 2 cents.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;455356]Where exactly did you, or anyone else, prove that any changes in gun laws led to an increase in crime? You seem to have an awfully hard time distinguishing between causation and correlation.[/QUOTE]

Did you not watch the youtube link about the UK gun laws?

I am unsure of why you are failing to make the connections, so I will bow out of this discussion as there is no more I can say, or anyone can say that will show you this direct relation.

I will leave you with this: I emplore you to read the link just posted by finslady.

(I would also suggest you not leave negative rep to someone with solely a differing opinion than you, but I might be barking up the wrong tree there)

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Finslady;455475]First, I have to acknowledge that I have not read this entire thread, but I have read some interesting arguments.

In response to Sheriff's quote, here is an excerpt from an article about gun control:

If gun control laws have any effect, it may be to increase crime. For instance:19

* New Jersey adopted what sponsors described as "the most stringent gun law" in the nation in 1966; two years later, the murder rate was up 46 percent and the reported robbery rate had nearly doubled.

* In 1968, Hawaii imposed a series of increasingly harsh measures and its murder rate, then a low 2.4 per 100,000 per year, tripled to 7.2 by 1977.

* In 1976, Washington, D.C., enacted one of the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation. Since then, the city's murder rate has risen 134 percent while the national murder rate has dropped 2 percent.

If anyone is interested in reading the article, the link can be found here:
[url=http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st/st176/s176c.html]NCPA - Policy Report 176 - Myths About Gun Control[/url]

As for my own opinions about gun control, here goes. I own two handguns. I own a blue card (licence to purchase a handgun). I am well trained in gun safety and a good shot on a gun range. I do keep a gun in my home for protection (I don't have kids, and if, for instance, my nephews were coming over, the clip would be removed and the gun locked up.)
Recently, there was an incident at my home where someone wasn't satisfied in attempting to get my attention by screaming outside of my house and decided to open my bedroom window. I didn't shoot him. I screamed bloody murder for him to leave and filed a complaint. However, had this not deterred him, I take comfort in the fact that I have the ability to protect myself.
As for the issue of the average citizen being able to carry a concealed weapon, I disagree. I believe anyone applying for a permit to carry should go through rigorous safety, ability, and accuracy training (as is required in Rhode Island). Otherwise, any idiot is more likely to blow their own foot off rather than actually have to defend themself.

That's just my 2 cents.[/QUOTE]

Outstanding post. Good research.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;455494]Did you not watch the youtube link about the UK gun laws?[/QUOTE]

I did and it didn't convince me.

[QUOTE=jsarno;455494]I am unsure of why you are failing to make the connections, so I will bow out of this discussion as there is no more I can say, or anyone can say that will show you this direct relation.[/QUOTE]

I have seen nothing that demonstrates that gun control laws result in an increase in gun crimes (or any crimes for that matter). Many of the "studies" I have read in this thread do not prove that gun control laws result in an increase in crime. They simply say, "X gun control measure was passed and, [B]thereafter[/B], crime rates increased." That is quite different from proving, "X gun control measure was paased and, [B]therefore[/B], crime rates increased." But, I will bow out of this discussion as there is nothing further I can say to illuminate the difference between correlation, coincidence, and causation.

[QUOTE=jsarno;455494](I would also suggest you not leave negative rep to someone with solely a differing opinion than you, but I might be barking up the wrong tree there)[/QUOTE]

First, I did not give you a negative reputation point for disagreeing with me. I gave you negative reputation points because, with all due respect, I have found [I]some[/I] of your posts in this thread lacking in substance and smelling of arrogance. Second, I should note that I have not given anyone negative reputation points for having a different opinion. Third, I believe you have given me reputation points because I disagreed with you (but maybe it's because you think my posts lack substance or stink of arrogance).

In any case, I'm done with this thread. You have your opinions and I have mine, we disagree, and neither of us is likely to persuade the other to change his opinion.

PS - I can't wait for training camp to start so we can discuss real football events instead of politics/news.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

Oh Ted, if nothing else your lunacy is entertaining:

[yt]mkzcHuKh-i8[/yt]

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

Well to be fair he is just repeating what Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus, D-Mont said.

"Too often, much of late, the last couple three years, the mal-distribution of income in American is gone up way too much, the wealthy are getting way, way too wealthy and the middle income class is left behind," he said. "Wages have not kept up with increased income of the highest income in America. This legislation will have the effect of addressing that mal-distribution of income in America."

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

Anyone going to Ted Nugent "Trample the Weak, Hurdle the Dead" [URL="http://www.tednugent.com/news/newsDetails.aspx?PostID=1037802#topNav"]tour[/URL] this summer?

[IMG]http://www.tednugent.com/images/news/NUGE_2010_Tour.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

Ted Nugent played a free concert here at one of the naval bases back after the first Iraq war and he sucked. He did that same lame thing with the bow and arrow and his music was just awful. I went with a group of like 10 people and everyone tried to get into the music but it just didn't work. The only reason we stayed was one of the people we went with worked for the company sponsoring the concert and got free beer. Even with the free beer the music still sucked and that pretty bad.