Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;1099880]Looked to me like he was out of bounds by that point.
The only way I could validate this touchdown is to say that he had possession in bounds for 1/3 of a second.
And thats not enough.....[B]I sure as hell would not have awarded six points to the opponent had it been them.[/B][/quote]

That's it...had the Giants scored on such a play, we'd all be screaming bloody murder about that today.

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

Point is if it were the other team, its a TD ... Bias ass refs

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=BaltimoreSkins;1099875]I did and I would've said he had no control. The ball is still moving[/quote]

Absolutely the right call

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1099885]So you're saying he had possession until he was out of bounds?

1/3 second, or more like a second, was when the runner broke the plane of the goal line with the ball under his control. Touchdown.[/quote]

the good explanation i read is that while RG3 did re-gain control before the ball crossed the plane ... since he lost and then re-gained control of the ball (all while in the air), he needed to maintain control as he hit the ground (like a receiver who makes a toe-tap reception in the endzone).

the spirit of the rule (im guessing) is that you need to establish possession throughout the entire football act .... but it seems strange that re-establishing possession by falling out of bounds matters.

but did the ball touch the ground though? it looked like he bobbled it but kept it off the ground?

i think the rule was applied technically correct.

i dont think that rule ever envisioned being applied to what happened on RG3's dive (having control-losing control-regaining control).

i imagine an exception will be made where this rule will not apply to a player who had previously established control on the play (ala runner)

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

a couple years ago this is a touchdown, just wierd how the league is so poorly run

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=over the mountain;1099918]the good explanation i read is that while RG3 did re-gain control before the ball crossed the plane ... since he lost and then re-gained control of the ball (all while in the air), he needed to maintain control as he hit the ground (like a receiver who makes a toe-tap reception in the endzone).

the spirit of the rule (im guessing) is that you need to establish possession throughout the entire football act .... but it seems strange that re-establishing possession by falling out of bounds matters.

but did the ball touch the ground though? it looked like he bobbled it but kept it off the ground?

i think the rule was applied technically correct.

i dont think that rule ever envisioned being applied to what happened on RG3's dive (having control-losing control-regaining control).

i imagine an exception will be made where this rule will not apply to a player who had previously established control on the play (ala runner)[/quote]
The rule was correctly applied (unfortunately) but it's a bad rule. It's just dumb. He had possession, it was never fully out of his hands (i.e. on the ground or in the air) and possession was never in conflict with the other team. To me a fumble isn't a fumble until the ball hits the ground or is in peril of changing possession. I don't understand why the NFL is so stubborn in having/enforcing stupid rules and yet still missing basic calls like the roughing the passer in the Seattle game.

I really hope the Belicheck proposal passes that makes every call reviewable and that tools like Jeff Fisher get off the Competition Committee that makes the game more convoluded than simple.

*Unrelated pet peeve: I hate penalties enforced that had nothing to do with the outcome of the play like illegal formation because the WR doesn't cover up the tackle or holding on a fair catch or touchback. Just pick up the damn flag and move on.*

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

It may be the right call but that play happens a bunch in the nfl and is never looked at. O well not that it matters we r 3-11

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;1099647]First 3 picks should be OL, DE and S. Not necessarily in that order, if possibke trade back.[/quote]

This.

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1099879]Griffin regained control before he crossed the goal line, and kept control till he hit the ground. I can post screenshots online on my home PC. Just play the second video from the top on the link above, when they replay RG3's run, click to pause and continue right before the ball crossed the goal line, then watch all the way through.

Refs botched this one badly.[/quote]

I honestly dont know the exact rule. All I am doing is explaining what Triplett gave as an explanation on the field. Here is the long version...

According to his explanation, the fact that he lost control prior to going over the goal line means he then had to "regain possession" of the ball for it to be a TD. In order for that to happen, he had to gain control of the ball and then either make a football move or maintain possession through the ground to "regain possession". Since he was in midair, making a football move wasnt going to happen. So he is left with maintaining possession through the ground as if he is now a receiver, which he didnt do. Since this wasnt a pass, the call cant be incomplete, so it reverts back to being a fumble. Now we have a fumble with RG3 laying out of bounds when he "regains possession". So it is ruled a fumble from prior to the goal line until he "regains possession" over the goal line and out of bounds. And a fumble over the goal line and out of bounds is a touchback, which is what was called.

Is that how the rule reads in the rulebook? I have no clue. And would love to see the exact rule pertaining to this. But that is the reasoning that Triplett used in making the call (with, at a minimum, an assist from the ones in New York helping with the replay calls).

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

On the play right before the disputed touchdown, RGIII sent a floater to Reed in the left flat that was broken up. If RGIII had thrown a bullet to the back shoulder instead of a floater, it was 6 points.

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=Avinash_Tyagi;1099891]Colt got sacked plenty in the past few games.

No, most were on the O-line, they kept letting the pocket collapse over and over on Griffin.

He's not blameless, there were moments where he held the ball too long, but the O-line was like swiss cheese yesterday[/quote]

Even when Colt got sacked a lot last week, several were on him. Granted, that was the worst game I've seen from the OL this year, but he took some he shouldn't have.

A lot of these sacks could be avoided by getting the ball out faster. Does our OL needed upgraded? Absolutely.

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

Too many variables to truly find someone to blame for a sack.

Could be QB, OL, WR, RB, or even the coach for calling a dumb play.

I do know that the offensive line gets beat a lot one on one which is a recipe for disaster.

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=donofriose;1099954] I do know that the offensive line gets beat a lot one on one which is a recipe for disaster.[/quote]

That offensive line has been diarrhea since 2012.....we didn't see only because of RG3's athleticism masked a lot of the o lines weaknesses with the read option.....in a normal offense the frailty of the offensive line is more visible....they can't run block. They can't pass protect. None of the Redskins offensive linemen would not be starting for another NFL team except Trent Williams.....

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=Skinzman;1099943]I honestly dont know the exact rule. All I am doing is explaining what Triplett gave as an explanation on the field. Here is the long version...

According to his explanation, the fact that he lost control prior to going over the goal line means he then had to "regain possession" of the ball for it to be a TD. In order for that to happen, he had to gain control of the ball and then either make a football move or maintain possession through the ground to "regain possession". Since he was in midair, making a football move wasnt going to happen. So he is left with maintaining possession through the ground as if he is now a receiver, which he didnt do. Since this wasnt a pass, the call cant be incomplete, so it reverts back to being a fumble. Now we have a fumble with RG3 laying out of bounds when he "regains possession". So it is ruled a fumble from prior to the goal line until he "regains possession" over the goal line and out of bounds. And a fumble over the goal line and out of bounds is a touchback, which is what was called.

Is that how the rule reads in the rulebook? I have no clue. And would love to see the exact rule pertaining to this. But that is the reasoning that Triplett used in making the call (with, at a minimum, an assist from the ones in New York helping with the replay calls).[/quote]

This is how the rule reads according to ESPN...

"A player who goes to the ground in the process of attempting to secure possession of a loose ball [with or without contact by an opponent] must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, there is no possession."

[url=http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/154238/inside-slant-ed-hochulis-mysterious-roughing-penalty-in-seattle]Seifert: Week 15 officiating review - ESPN[/url]

If that is the rule... There is no way that was a touchdown.

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=donofriose;1099965]This is how the rule reads according to ESPN...

"A player who goes to the ground in the process of attempting to secure possession of a loose ball [with or without contact by an opponent] must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, there is no possession."

[url=http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/154238/inside-slant-ed-hochulis-mysterious-roughing-penalty-in-seattle]Seifert: Week 15 officiating review - ESPN[/url]

If that is the rule... There is no way that was a touchdown.[/quote]

did any view ever show the ball actually touch the ground?

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1100001]did any view ever show the ball actually touch the ground?[/quote]

thats what im wondering.

the ball was moving all over RG3s chest but did it touch the ground?

why does it matter if the ball did or did not hit the ground if the player lands out of bounds anyway (argument cut against us)?

shouldnt time have been put back on the clock to the time that RG3's foot hits the pylon?

didnt NC Skins show a screen grab of :01 on clock when play was clearly over anyhow (so 30 penalty yards would give giants ball at 50 w 1 second left)?

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=donofriose;1099965]This is how the rule reads according to ESPN...

"A player who goes to the ground in the process of attempting to secure possession of a loose ball [with or without contact by an opponent] must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, there is no possession."

[url=http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/154238/inside-slant-ed-hochulis-mysterious-roughing-penalty-in-seattle]Seifert: Week 15 officiating review - ESPN[/url]

If that is the rule... There is no way that was a touchdown.[/quote]But Griffin had possession just before the ball crossed the goal line. And he kept possession until he hit the ground. And did the ball hit the ground, or did it just bounce up when his arm/hand hit the ground?

[URL="http://thebiglead.com/2014/12/14/santana-moss-ejected-after-jeff-triplette-reverses-rg3-touchdown-to-fumble-to-end-half/"]LINK - second video down, click on it to pause right before the ball crosses the goal line, click again to continue[/URL]

I don't see how you overturn the call on the field, touchdown.

This whole conversation is so sad. Skins fans are so used to losing, getting beat, getting screwed, they can get robbed on video, where the play can be replayed/paused/slowed, and Skins fans are OK with that.

I guess the team is like that too. There's a fine line between sticking up for yourself and whining. We play the eagles where our guy hits the QB at the end of an INT play where he's running where the ball carrier is getting tackled, the Eagles take offense, start fighting and complaining to the refs, we get penalized and player ejected. We play the giants and get screwed on a call, and we whine to the refs... we get penalized and player ejected. The team is a bunch of losers too.

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1100001]did any view ever show the ball actually touch the ground?[/quote]

The ball doesnt have to touch the ground. The call is that RG3 gained possession when he was out of bounds. Which means no possession and the ruling that the fumble happened prior to crossing the goal line, then the ball proceeded to cross the goal line and go out of bounds so was ruled a touchback.

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

On the other side of the football, I didn't see the game, but I see that we only had 1 sack (Kerrigan). That's awful. Eli is not mobile, and his line isn't very good. On teh replays of the Beckham TDs, it seems that ELi had all day. I know Hatcher was out (knee I think), and it seems that without him, no one else can provide any pressure. While I applaud the effort limiting the Giants ground game, the reality is that the Giants don't really have much of a ground game. You have to get to Eli, and when you do, he becomes a turnover machine. We didn't do that.

Anyone know anything about Hatcher's returns for the Saturday Eagles game? I hope that we can dial up some pressure somehow. I am very worried that our D was playing much better when we last played Philly, and we still gave up 37 points. Of course, their QB situation has deteriorated a bit since then (as has ours), but still -- Chip Kelly might put up 50 points on us the way we're playing.

I hope that we decide to just pound the ball -- heavy dose of the run game, and maybe mixing it up a bit and letting Redd and Thompson get some carries (what do we have to lose at this point).

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=Skinzman;1100018]The ball doesnt have to touch the ground. The call is that RG3 gained possession when he was out of bounds. Which means no possession and the ruling that the fumble happened prior to crossing the goal line, then the ball proceeded to cross the goal line and go out of bounds so was ruled a touchback.[/quote]
That doesn't make sense with the rule that was quoted:

[quote]"A player who goes to the ground in the process of attempting to secure possession of a loose ball [with or without contact by an opponent] must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. [B]If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, there is no possession.[/B]"
[/quote]

This is the operable phrase, I think. Griffin had possession, lost it and was attempting to re-secure it. He dragged his feet inbounds with the ball in his grasp (screen grab is out there), then fell to the ground. If he loses control of the ball (which he did) AND the ball touches the ground(which no angle I've seen shows) then maybe the ruling was correct. But the ruling on the field was a TD, so you need incontrovertible evidence to overturn it. I don't think that existed.

Who knows what would have happened from that point, but I just think it's another case this year (not just with the Redskins) of the officiating being worse than ever.

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

Looking at the video, it occurs to me that had the play been upheld, there would be no great controversy about it -- probably even among Giants fans. And who the heck knows what would have happened the rest of the way out.

Story of the season, folks. Lots of what ifs.

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1100020]That doesn't make sense with the rule that was quoted:



This is the operable phrase, I think. Griffin had possession, lost it and was attempting to re-secure it. He dragged his feet inbounds with the ball in his grasp (screen grab is out there), then fell to the ground. If he loses control of the ball (which he did) AND the ball touches the ground(which no angle I've seen shows) then maybe the ruling was correct. But the ruling on the field was a TD, so you need incontrovertible evidence to overturn it. I don't think that existed.

Who knows what would have happened from that point, but I just think it's another case this year (not just with the Redskins) of the officiating being worse than ever.[/quote]

Thats not the operable phrase, because it doesnt cover out of bounds. That rule does not allow for possession to be made out of bounds (no rule does).

Once the fumble happens, possession needs to be made again. In order for possession to happen, it takes one of two things.

1) Regain control of the ball and make a football move.
2) Regain control of the ball, then land on the ground and maintain possession of the ball through the ground.

Neither of which happened. The ruling is that he never had possession in the end zone. He had it prior to the goal line, then regained possession out of bounds past the goal line. Possession is not determined by ball control, it is determined by ball control AND the football move or maintaining control through the ground.

It doesnt matter if the ball hit the ground because the ruling is that when he re-made possession, he was already out of bounds.

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

We've all learned a lesson: if you want to score a TD, hold on to the friggin' ball. Then the zebras can't say anything.

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

Did anyone else notice this at the end of the game? I thought he looked injured but then it hasn't been mentioned. Right knee. Seems like just a matter of time.

[url=http://www.businessinsider.com/rg3-leg-injury-redskins-giants-2014-12]RGIII Appeared To Suffer Yet Another Leg Injury At End Of Loss To Giants - Business Insider[/url]

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[QUOTE=Lotus;1100064]We've all learned a lesson: if you want to score a TD, hold on to the friggin' ball. Then the zebras can't say anything.[/QUOTE]


Seriously. No excuse for the fumble or bobble or whatever in the first place.

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=punch it in;1100070]Seriously. No excuse for the fumble or bobble or whatever in the first place.[/quote]

Well if we are being critical. The original RG wouldn't of even been run down by JPP with 15yds of space. He would of walked in to the endzone. Sadly i feel that RG3 will never come back

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

Or, when a guy bobbles the ball in his hands, doesn't even fumble it, and replay shows he got control of it with both hands again before it broke the plane of the goal line, it's called a touchdown like it should have been.

Oh wait, we're the Redskins. Nevermind.

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=punch it in;1100070]Seriously. No excuse for the fumble or bobble or whatever in the first place.[/quote]

His arm got jostled if you look at the replay

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1100121]Or, when a guy bobbles the ball in his hands, doesn't even fumble it, and replay shows he got control of it with both hands again before it broke the plane of the goal line, it's called a touchdown like it should have been.

Oh wait, we're the Redskins. Nevermind.[/quote]

If there were no bobble, which is the proper way to do it, the rest of your post does not matter.

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

There are several ways that the disputed touchdown was a clusterfudge:

1) No bobble, no fumble accusation
2) Poor clock management by RGIII
3) Should have scored the play before by throwing a different pass to Reed

Yet, for a 3-11 team, we blame the refs, not the 3-11 players.

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

Griffin sucks at protecting the ball.
But I suppose thats the refs fault too.

He should have thrown the ball away.
Kick the field goal.
Thes no rumble, no ejections, no double penalty.
We could have pulled out a win.

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

Don't forget up 13-7 and getting the ball to start the half. No way NY does an onside without those penalties.

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[QUOTE=Alvin Walton;1100132]Griffin sucks at protecting the ball.

But I suppose thats the refs fault too.



He should have thrown the ball away.

Kick the field goal.

Thes no rumble, no ejections, no double penalty.

We could have pulled out a win.[/QUOTE]


Throw the ball away when he had a great shot at 6?

C'mon man. Talk about hindsight being 20/20.

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=Mattyk;1100141]Throw the ball away when he had a great shot at 6?

C'mon man. Talk about hindsight being 20/20.[/quote]

i think the time to throw the ball away was when he dropped back and didnt see any open receivers .. by the time he scrambled to the outside, it was a TD or bust.

speaking of not seeing an open receiver on that play .... reed lines up in the slot with no one covering him, reed runs a seam and raises his arm to show he is open .... RG3 was started pre-snap looking left, RG3 maintained vision to the left post-snap ...... this is what frustrates receivers.

[url=http://www.nfl.com/videos/washington-redskins/0ap3000000443375/RGIII-touchdown-call-reversed-players-angry-at-call]Washington Redskins quarterback RGIII touchdown call reversed, players angry at call - NFL Videos[/url]


how the fuck does RG3 not see an uncovered Reed pre-snap and not make him his primary read (if he wasnt primary to begin with)?

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;1100132]Griffin sucks at protecting the ball.
But I suppose thats the refs fault too.

He should have thrown the ball away.
Kick the field goal.
Thes no rumble, no ejections, no double penalty.
We could have pulled out a win.[/quote]

Jay Gruden's offense is shit. It was shit in Cinncy and they have a better team. Fire this entire non coaching staff. They are not coaching up the players they have. Who is on Pats staff that can come in here and teach this team how to win? We need to find a coach that uses a system that fits his players .

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=Lotus;1100129]If there were no bobble, which is the proper way to do it, the rest of your post does not matter.[/quote]You think you, or most nfl qbs, could avoid bobbling the ball when hit on the arm by an nfl d player?

Griffin made a great play. Had control with two hands on the ball when he broke the plane of the goal line with the ball as a runner.

The excuses being made here for a bad call by the officials are nauseating.

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1100225]You think you, or most nfl qbs, could avoid bobbling the ball when hit on the arm by an nfl d player?

Griffin made a great play. Had control with two hands on the ball when he broke the plane of the goal line with the ball as a runner.

[B]The excuses being made here for a bad call by the officials are nauseating.[/B][/quote]

i think it is beyond the point of debate that the call was in fact correct.

looking at the replay on the video above, i dont think JPP touches the ball or his right hand. it looks like RG3 just looses his grip as he starts to dive in the air.

just another awkward result for an awkward player.

really wish the TD had stood. it may have been the rallying cry we so desperately need. it would have boosted RG3s confidence so much.

we just cant get out of our own way right now.

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1100225]You think you, or most nfl qbs, could avoid bobbling the ball when hit on the arm by an nfl d player?

Griffin made a great play. Had control with two hands on the ball when he broke the plane of the goal line with the ball as a runner.

The excuses being made here for a bad call by the officials are nauseating.[/quote]

Might be a bad rule, but it was the right call

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1100231]Might be a bad rule, but it was the right call[/quote]Because he left his feet?

Re: Redskins vs Giants GameDay Thread
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1100234]Because he left his feet?[/quote]

Once he bobbled it while in the air he was basically a receiver catching the ball (odd rule but it is what it is), so he had to land inbounds with possession. It's kind of like that Calvin Johnson play from a years back