Re: All things Middle East related
 

[url]https://www.yahoo.com/news/pakistani-boy-cuts-off-own-hand-blasphemy-mistake-142348551.html?nhp=1[/url]

This is a religion

Re: All things Middle East related
 

that's, uh... just wow.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Hog1;1137423][url=http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/pentagon-2-u-s-navy-boats-held-iran-military-n495031]Pentagon: 2 U.S. Navy Boats With 10 American Sailors Held by Iran Military - NBC News[/url][/quote]

:doh:

[url=http://www.occupydemocrats.com/trump-slams-obama-for-not-freeing-hostages-5-hours-after-obama-negotiated-their-release-by-iran/]Trump Slams Obama for Not Freeing "Hostages" Five Hours After Obama Negotiated their Release by Iran | Occupy Democrats[/url]

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[url]https://www.thomasmore.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Thomas-More-Law-Center-Files-Lawsuit-On-Behalf-of-Marine-Dad-Banned-from-Schoo-After-He-Objected-to-Islamic-Indoctrination-Exhibits.pdf[/url]

^^ copies of some handouts/homework students had to do. i consider myself pretty accepting but .. this doesnt feel right.

the line stating "Most Muslim's faith is stronger than the average Christian" really crosses a line.

[url=http://freebeacon.com/issues/public-school-system-sued-for-pushing-islamic-propaganda/]Public School System Sued for Pushing Islamic Propaganda[/url]

this is going on in La Plata in a "world history" class .... this sensitive "religious" material should have a strict set-in-stone curriculum with pre-approved handouts etc. it shouldnt be up to each teacher.

im really just amazed at this line.

"Most Muslim's [U]faith is stronger[/U] than the average Christian".

in what way is that teaching about a religion?

Re: All things Middle East related
 

According to a local Los Angeles news report, a neighbor of San Bernardino massacre suspects Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik didn't report suspicious activity at their apartment for fear of being accused of racism.


.@KNX1070 reporting a neighbor did not call authorities about suspicious activity bc she did not want to racially profile #SanBernardino
— Will Carr (@WillCarrFNC) December 3, 2015

Neighbors: 3-4 "middle easterners" had recently moved into the apt of interest. getting a lots of package deliveries #SanBernardino
— Will Carr (@WillCarrFNC) December 3, 2015
This is the same politically correct culture that lead to the Ft. Hood shooting when Nidal Hassan, who had been spouting violent Islamic propaganda to neighbors on post and reaching out to Al Qaeda, was ignored for fear of "Islamaphobia" accusations.

The warning signs were all there: the justification of homicide bombings; the spewing of anti-American hatred; the efforts to reach Al Qaeda ...

But the U.S. military treated Major Nidal Malik Hasan with kid gloves, even after giving him a poor performance review. And though he was on the radar screen of at least one U.S. intelligence agency, no action was taken that might have prevented the Army psychiatrist from allegedly gunning down 13 people and wounding 29 others in the Fort Hood massacre last week.

See something, say something, is dead.


I found this out from the debate last night...these folks didn't want to get a visit from the PC Principal but they new something was wrong. Maybe could have stopped an attack.

I find it reprehensible that both the mother and the father of this dead terrorist didn't call police. They should be locked up.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

Profiling....racist bastards...lol
We have, what our leadership wanted us to have.......Nice and...................PC

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[url=http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/02/05/are-u-s-missiles-taking-out-high-ranking-russian-military-officials.html]Are U.S. Missiles Taking Out High-Ranking Russian Military Officials? - The Daily Beast[/url]

proxy war may very well be in full effect. what a wonderful world. i feel so bad for all the millions of families now displaced .. or dead .. or forever separated to never see each other again. i dont feel bad for the 20 and 30 something males who didnt stay and are now claiming amnesty in germany, etc. stay and fight for your country.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=over the mountain;1138772][url=http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/02/05/are-u-s-missiles-taking-out-high-ranking-russian-military-officials.html]Are U.S. Missiles Taking Out High-Ranking Russian Military Officials? - The Daily Beast[/url]

proxy war may very well be in full effect. what a wonderful world. i feel so bad for all the millions of families now displaced .. or dead .. or forever separated to never see each other again. i dont feel bad for the 20 and 30 something males who didnt stay and are now claiming amnesty in germany, etc. stay and fight for your country.[/quote]

on whose side? al assads? isis? extremists rebels? the moderate rebels don't really exist. not to mention it's hard to fight when you're starving and don't have a gun. it's also hard to go tell someone else they should go die for a country when that country no longer really exists, and everyone is killing everyone for no real reason at all.

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If Turkey enters into war is NATO still bound by Article 5, the unified defense clause? Could the US even consider not backing up Turkey and Saudi Arabia if they decided to break with the peace process the US set up with Russia?

[url=http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/02/turkey-and-saudi-arabia-could-send-tens.html]Next Big Future: Turkey and Saudi Arabia could send tens of thousands of troops into Syria and a possible prelude to full blown Russia-Middle East war[/url]

Since the end of WWII there has always been a way to keep from going through with a full scale world war, but sure seems like Syria/ME could set up to test those limits.

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[quote=Chico23231;1137698][url]https://www.yahoo.com/news/pakistani-boy-cuts-off-own-hand-blasphemy-mistake-142348551.html?nhp=1[/url]

This is a religion[/quote]

Your post is blasphemy! Cut off one of your hands!

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=over the mountain;1138772][url=http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/02/05/are-u-s-missiles-taking-out-high-ranking-russian-military-officials.html]Are U.S. Missiles Taking Out High-Ranking Russian Military Officials? - The Daily Beast[/url]

proxy war may very well be in full effect. what a wonderful world. i feel so bad for all the millions of families now displaced .. or dead .. or forever separated to never see each other again. [B]i dont feel bad for the 20 and 30 something males who didnt stay and are now claiming amnesty in germany, etc. stay and fight for your country[/B].[/quote]

[IMG]https://s.yimg.com/lo/api/res/1.2/oo6H8fIZz2LD4jdvsPr7MA--/YXBwaWQ9eW15O3E9NzU7dz02NDA7c209MTtpbD1wbGFuZQ--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/985b7832e1e7cd08900f6a7067003507.jpg[/IMG]

Emotional scenes unfolded at the Baghdad International Airport on Thursday as dozens of Iraqis who had sought refuge in Europe returned home.

More than a hundred Iraqis, mostly young men, landed in Baghdad on a flight from Finland.

[url]https://www.yahoo.com/news/dozens-iraqi-migrants-return-home-europe-141557049.html[/url]
---

fucking pussies.

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Anybody care that ISIS is using Chlorine and Mustard Gas against multiple cities within Iraq?

Our president let this happen. Let genocide happen. Remember that folks, remember it.

He was up in arms when Assad did it...haven't heard a word from that pussy in the white house about these attacks.

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isis is a problem that is both bush and obama's fault. the problem is american's don't give a hist about foreign policy, so there's no real accountability or or push for spending a lot of effort there, and 90% of presidents come in with 0 foreign policy experience (being governors or senators). no one really votes for candidates foreign policy beyond stupidity like "we're going to build a wall."

what's your answer though? bomb them? cause we're already doing that. spend money fighting them? we're already committing billions to arm the shia fundamentalist militias and security forces fighting them (who also do bad things like torture, beheadings, etc). are you just asking for a press release?

it's not like america ignoring genocide is anything new either. when it happens in africa, the UN tries very very hard to classify it as anything else that's not genocide, cause once it's labelled as genocide, they'd be forced to do something about it.

not trying to be cynical, but either we're the world police or we're not. a lot of times when we go in to fix something, someone doesn't have the regional experience, makes a few really bad decisions, and actively makes things worse.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=That Guy;1140601]isis is a problem that is both bush and obama's fault. the problem is american's don't give a hist about foreign policy, so there's no real accountability or or push for spending a lot of effort there, and 90% of presidents come in with 0 foreign policy experience (being governors or senators). no one really votes for candidates foreign policy beyond stupidity like "we're going to build a wall."

what's your answer though? bomb them? cause we're already doing that. spend money fighting them? we're already committing billions to arm the shia fundamentalist militias and security forces fighting them (who also do bad things like torture, beheadings, etc). are you just asking for a press release?

it's not like america ignoring genocide is anything new either. when it happens in africa, the UN tries very very hard to classify it as anything else that's not genocide, cause once it's labelled as genocide, they'd be forced to do something about it.

not trying to be cynical, but either we're the world police or we're not. a lot of times when we go in to fix something, someone doesn't have the regional experience, makes a few really bad decisions, and actively makes things worse.[/quote]

No your right, Bill Clinton ignored it twice. And after Rwanda, he pledge the US would never let it happen again.

The liberal media has waged a campaign to avoid it.

The Bush blame is way old by now...but I expect that from liberals. ISIS is a President Obama problem. He completely fucked it up...certainly the biggest fuck up of his Presidency. Its getting better, but not before costing lives in attacks here in the US, Europe, and Beirut with terrorist attacks. But that's selfish. We should be thinking about the hundreds of thousands lives lost in Iraq and Syria. This happened in Iraq, where we have invested so much in.

The President has been an absolute disaster in foreign politics. The world is on fire...I guess we should just sit back and let it burn. So funny how the left has completely shifted. So f*ck everybody else now? pathetic, 2 face folks these days.

Lets see, Ukraine, Europe, Syria, Iraq, Israel hates Obama...they have zero respect. The fucking pathetic Iranian deal.

Cuba has already told the President we aint changing for shit. Because they don't have respect for him. So we gain nothing and Cuba's ruling class will gain access to everything.

The President is a weak ass bitch....but you can dress it up anyway you like. Go ahead and rationalize it.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

its not a partisan problem, its a foreign policy problem. if bush hadn't invaded iraq, isis wouldn't exist. if bush hadn't fired the entire iraqi army, isis wouldn't exist, cause those people would have been gainfully employed. obama has blame to, i'm not saying he isn't, just that it's stupid to say this is 100% on obama, when he's not the reason we went there in the first place. ignoring iraq's constitution was a big mistake.

but what do you want to do? send troops en masse back into iraq? invade crimea and fight russia in a conventional war? what's the answer that we've all been missing?

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Chico23231;1140603]No your right, Bill Clinton ignored it twice. And after Rwanda, he pledge the US would never let it happen again.

The liberal media has waged a campaign to avoid it.

The Bush blame is way old by now...but I expect that from liberals. ISIS is a President Obama problem. He completely fucked it up...[B]certainly the biggest fuck up of his Presidency[/B]. Its getting better, but not before costing lives in attacks here in the US, Europe, and Beirut with terrorist attacks. But that's selfish. We should be thinking about the hundreds of thousands lives lost in Iraq and Syria. This happened in Iraq, where we have invested so much in.

The President has been an absolute disaster in foreign politics. The world is on fire...I guess we should just sit back and let it burn. So funny how the left has completely shifted. So f*ck everybody else now? pathetic, 2 face folks these days.

Lets see, Ukraine, Europe, Syria, Iraq, Israel hates Obama...they have zero respect. The fucking pathetic Iranian deal.

Cuba has already told the President we aint changing for shit. Because they don't have respect for him. So we gain nothing and Cuba's ruling class will gain access to everything.

The President is a weak ass bitch....but you can dress it up anyway you like. Go ahead and rationalize it.[/quote]

The absurdity of that statement.....knows NO bounds sir!
It would seem an impossible task to determine given the....voluminous body of work.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

Radical Islamic Terrorists....when are leaders within their religions gonna admit they got a serious problem?

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[quote=Chico23231;1141166]Radical Islamic Terrorists....when are leaders within their religions gonna admit they got a serious problem?[/quote]

Are you referencing anyone specifically?

Leaders within Islam have come out and spoke against radicalism and admitted major problems time and time again.

[url=http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2016/01/28/464688623/muslim-leaders-vow-to-protect-rights-of-religious-minorities]Muslim Leaders Vow To Protect Rights Of Religious Minorities : Parallels : NPR[/url]

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=RobH4413;1141167]Are you referencing anyone specifically?

Leaders within Islam have come out and spoke against radicalism and admitted major problems time and time again.

[url=http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2016/01/28/464688623/muslim-leaders-vow-to-protect-rights-of-religious-minorities]Muslim Leaders Vow To Protect Rights Of Religious Minorities : Parallels : NPR[/url][/quote]

There needs to be a movement within the Islamic Religion of "no more". When you have Isis who has now claimed 70 attacks in 20 different countries, obviously more needs to be done and whats being done now isn't working. We are talking genocide now...the scope has moved from terrorism to genocide. Folks, that's a leap and its a world problem.

Id really like to sit down with the people in the community where the 13th paris attacker was just found in Belgium. He was born and raised there...and its obvious to reasonable folks that this guy was protected and hidden within his community. This is an example what is wrong.

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[IMG]http://twitter.com/alxdm/status/712214397482094592/photo/1[/IMG]

[IMG]http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/56f1385ddd0895bb138b45e9-600-1065/brussels%20airport%20.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/56f16d42dd0895c2578b474f-1200-800/rtsbp9u.jpg[/IMG]

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some people are just fucked up :/

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[quote=Chico23231;1140587]Anybody care that ISIS is using Chlorine and Mustard Gas against multiple cities within Iraq?

Our president let this happen. Let genocide happen. Remember that folks, remember it.

He was up in arms when Assad did it...haven't heard a word from that pussy in the white house about these attacks.[/quote]

from 2013 ..

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/31/world/meast/syria-civil-war/]Obama urges military action against Syria but will seek Congress' OK - CNN.com[/url]

Obama sent a letter to the heads of the House and Senate on Saturday night, hours after announcing that he believes military action against Syrian targets is the right step to take over the alleged use of chemical weapons.
The proposed legislation from Obama asks Congress to approve the use of military force "to deter, disrupt, prevent and degrade the potential for future uses of chemical weapons or other weapons of mass destruction."
...
In a televised address from the White House Rose Garden earlier Saturday, the president said he would take his case to Congress, not because he has to -- but because he wants to.
"While I believe I have the authority to carry out this military action without specific congressional authorization, I know that the country will be stronger if we take this course, and our actions will be even more effective," he said. "We should have this debate, because the issues are too big for business as usual."
...
Some members of Congress applauded Obama's decision.
House Speaker John Boehner, Majority Leader Eric Cantor, Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy and Conference Chair Cathy McMorris Rodgers issued a statement Saturday praising the president.
"Under the Constitution, the responsibility to declare war lies with Congress," the Republican lawmakers said. "We are glad the president is seeking authorization for any military action in Syria in response to serious, substantive questions being raised."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since 2013, congress has failed to vote on Pres Obama's AUMF. Seems both parties in congress are to blame.

I read a great article from foxnews this weekend that laid it out pretty clearly (cant find it now) ... republicans dont want to give obama unlimited war powers and democrats want specific limitations on # of troops, concrete twillight language, etc. (as well as ending the 2001 aumf that obama is currently using to bomb isis in syria).

--------------------------------------------------

my short version -- its not Pres Obama fault that our engagement has been limited to air strikes. Its congresses. either way, im glad we are not "boots on the ground". that whole area is a shit show.

ive had trouble harmonizing my thoughts that i value american lives over those non-americans in syria and beyond.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Chico23231;1140587]Anybody care that ISIS is using Chlorine and Mustard Gas against multiple cities within Iraq?

Our president let this happen. Let genocide happen. Remember that folks, remember it.

He was up in arms when Assad did it...haven't heard a word from that pussy in the white house about these attacks.[/quote]

Couldn't agree more. We should have put boots on the ground long before this. In fact, we never should have pulled out of Iraq.

I still contend that the biggest failure of the Bush administration was not in toppling Saddam Hussein, but it was in the failure to build Iraq up to the point where it could police itself and stand on its own two feet. If that was never possible then Saddam should have been left in power.

But understanding that, Obama made a bad situation even worse by pulling our troops out. He left an even bigger power vacuum than Bush did.

Obama was dealt a very bad hand by the Bush administration. A point every democrat loves to acknowledge. What they don't like to acknowledge is you have to play the hand you're dealt, and Obama has played his like shit.

ISIS crossed a red line long ago, the chemical weapons usage is just the latest example. It's another example of impotent foreign policy.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=over the mountain;1141369]from 2013 ..

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/31/world/meast/syria-civil-war/]Obama urges military action against Syria but will seek Congress' OK - CNN.com[/url]

Obama sent a letter to the heads of the House and Senate on Saturday night, hours after announcing that he believes military action against Syrian targets is the right step to take over the alleged use of chemical weapons.
The proposed legislation from Obama asks Congress to approve the use of military force "to deter, disrupt, prevent and degrade the potential for future uses of chemical weapons or other weapons of mass destruction."
...
In a televised address from the White House Rose Garden earlier Saturday, the president said he would take his case to Congress, not because he has to -- but because he wants to.
"While I believe I have the authority to carry out this military action without specific congressional authorization, I know that the country will be stronger if we take this course, and our actions will be even more effective," he said. "We should have this debate, because the issues are too big for business as usual."
...
Some members of Congress applauded Obama's decision.
House Speaker John Boehner, Majority Leader Eric Cantor, Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy and Conference Chair Cathy McMorris Rodgers issued a statement Saturday praising the president.
"Under the Constitution, the responsibility to declare war lies with Congress," the Republican lawmakers said. "We are glad the president is seeking authorization for any military action in Syria in response to serious, substantive questions being raised."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since 2013, congress has failed to vote on Pres Obama's AUMF. Seems both parties in congress are to blame.

I read a great article from foxnews this weekend that laid it out pretty clearly (cant find it now) ... republicans dont want to give obama unlimited war powers and democrats want specific limitations on # of troops, concrete twillight language, etc. (as well as ending the 2001 aumf that obama is currently using to bomb isis in syria).

--------------------------------------------------

my short version -- its not Pres Obama fault that our engagement has been limited to air strikes. Its congresses. either way, im glad we are not "boots on the ground". that whole area is a shit show.

ive had trouble harmonizing my thoughts that i value american lives over those non-americans in syria and beyond.[/quote]

Yet he starts out by saying he believes he has the authority to take the military action without Congressional approval. You blaming congress for refusing to answer when Obama himself acknowledges he didn't have to ask is the ultimate example of passing off responsibility.

Hold your president accountable.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

all these armchair generals, the answer to everything is to go send other folks to die for you in another foreign war without any idea of what that actually entails.

we put troops in syria then what? topple assad's regime and get into a conventional war with russia? stay there forever? cause after assad or isis goes, someone has to fill that vacuum. right now we've shown we can't nation build effectively, and we don't have the patience to run a proper counter insurgency (which can take over 20 years).

the problem with iraq wasn't pulling american troops, it was the horribly mismanaged peace process and a series of very bad decisions about who to leave in charge and how to proceed with a bunch of very piecemeal and sometimes misguided rebuilding projects/goals. the violence in iraq went down when we put 100,000+ militia men on the payroll, and it surged back up when the iraqi government decided they didn't want to be giving money to sunni militias and stopped paying them.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

in an effort to try and articulate a bit better...

170,000+ people have died in iraq (over 60% civilians) since our involvement began there, and the security situation is worse than when we started, both locally and globally - in large part because we helped to create the conditions necessary for isis to form and gain strength (and because we didn't pay enough attention to the political situation).

you literally just said that if we did the math and thought that would be the result, we shouldn't have gone in, yet in the same breath are advocating doing the exact same thing in syria, which is lunacy.

1. drop a bunch of US troops into a country where everyone hates them, blow a bunch of shit up (isis, assad, misc extremist militias), possibly get into a real war with russia.
2. ????
3. profit?

syria is one of russia's foreign bases, they have a vested interest there, while we really do not. if you think we should be world police and fight everyone all the time en masse, that's fine, but i hope you're signing up to enlist, cause we don't have that kind of manpower or budget for endless war. taking a short view of dropping US troops in an area as some kind of panacea is a view that has no common ground with reality.

what we do have is small groups of trainers and specialists that help us extend power and influence and act as force multipliers among foreign powers/armed forces. right now, believe it or not, we're actually winning in syria. we're moving slower than we could militarily because of the slow political process on the ground (which militia is going to move into this position, who's going to control or police this area once isis leaves, etc). big isis leaders are dying 2-3 times a week, and the platoons on the ground are generally dissolving once engaged now without a real fight (fading into the populace or running away).

the problem after isis (or assad/isis if that's your view) is that anyone with money (like doctors, etc) has generally left if they could, and there are real problems with basic things right now, like not starving to death. what you really need is a humanitarian/peace keeping mission after those guys are gone, and the US military is not the best avenue for that, as they're seen as an interfering foreign power and not as someone that's honestly trying to help just for the sake of helping. you need people that speak the language, aren't carrying guns and body armor, and aren't directly involved in midnight raids and arrests if you want any real trust.

anyways, my 2 cents.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=That Guy;1141379]in an effort to try and articulate a bit better...

170,000+ people have died in iraq (over 60% civilians) since our involvement began there, and the security situation is worse than when we started, both locally and globally - in large part because we helped to create the conditions necessary for isis to form and gain strength (and because we didn't pay enough attention to the political situation).

you literally just said that if we did the math and thought that would be the result, we shouldn't have gone in, yet in the same breath are advocating doing the exact same thing in syria, which is lunacy.

1. drop a bunch of US troops into a country where everyone hates them, blow a bunch of shit up (isis, assad, misc extremist militias), possibly get into a real war with russia.
2. ????
3. profit?

syria is one of russia's foreign bases, they have a vested interest there, while we really do not. if you think we should be world police and fight everyone all the time en masse, that's fine, but i hope you're signing up to enlist, cause we don't have that kind of manpower or budget for endless war. taking a short view of dropping US troops in an area as some kind of panacea is a view that has no common ground with reality.

what we do have is small groups of trainers and specialists that help us extend power and influence and act as force multipliers among foreign powers/armed forces. right now, believe it or not, we're actually winning in syria. we're moving slower than we could militarily because of the slow political process on the ground (which militia is going to move into this position, who's going to control or police this area once isis leaves, etc). big isis leaders are dying 2-3 times a week, and the platoons on the ground are generally dissolving once engaged now without a real fight (fading into the populace or running away).

the problem after isis (or assad/isis if that's your view) is that anyone with money (like doctors, etc) has generally left if they could, and there are real problems with basic things right now, like not starving to death. what you really need is a humanitarian/peace keeping mission after those guys are gone, and the US military is not the best avenue for that, as they're seen as an interfering foreign power and not as someone that's honestly trying to help just for the sake of helping. you need people that speak the language, aren't carrying guns and body armor, and aren't directly involved in midnight raids and arrests if you want any real trust.

anyways, my 2 cents.[/quote]

Too long, didn't read

Re: All things Middle East related
 

While I generally don't agree with That Guy on a lot of politics, I am with him on this one.

Boots on the ground? If history has shown us anything, it has demonstrated that putting troops into a place is always easier than withdrawing them. Once Americans die, there had damn well better be a reason for being there and, if there is, we damn well better win. In the Middle East, barring the economic need for oil, there is no reason for young Americans to die. I bought into that theory once. Not again.

Who is in those boots? Young Americans fighting ... who? Assad? ISIS? For the rebels? For some of the Rebels but against others? With Turkey but not with the Kurds? And when in this mish mash of religious radicalism, rampant ethnic loyalty, and generally undemocratic forces, we end up siding with folks who - it turns out - also commit atrocities, we inevitably make more enemies.

ISIS is bad. Assad is bad. Many of the rebels are bad. Not a lot of folks fighting for "Truth Justice and the American Way."

I don't know what the right answer is. I am convinced, however, "boots on the ground" is the wrong answer unless their is a clear, rock-solid, exit strategy. Because war is messy - particularly the war being fought in the ME, I just don't see a scenario that warrants Americans dying in the dessert.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

I still have a hard time with folks who don't understand what's going on and who is Isis.

This is the greatest terror organization in the history of the modern world..they are well funded, have an army, are currently at war with the west, hold large swaths of land, are well trained, proven logistical capabilities to strike in multiple countries across the world. Have/used chemical weapons, currently seeking weapons of mass destruction. Their ability to recruit and communicate globally is unprecedented.

The nazis tried to hide their war crimes and their crimes against humanity...burned records, hid concentration camps, destroyed camps, etc. ISIS Proudly captures genocide on video and then distributes to everyone. Folks. Think about it.


We must understand a couple things...we are at war. We are spending tons of resources on them. And we do actually have some boots on the ground.

Two, this is a major problem within the Muslim community. We need to admit this and so do the folks within the religion.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

Schneed is right if history could be changed we should have enacted the equivalent of a new Marshall plan after we toppled Saddam, bringing in US power to unite Iraq Saudi Arabia Jordan Egypt and Israel in a Mideast defense pact. Likely internal to the borders we could have strengthened the governments favorable to us, and in a real good case lifted the standard of living enough to move the needle away from extremism. Unfortunately, like in the aftermath of WW1, the world felt war weary and that simple good feelings would bring the peace of universal wisdom and enlightenment to that region.

Now we are in a world where the enemies of the US are in a stronger position. And the death toll to make civil society safe is gonna be a whole lot higher.


Sent from my SM-P550 using Tapatalk

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1141386]While I generally don't agree with That Guy on a lot of politics, I am with him on this one.

Boots on the ground? If history has shown us anything, it has demonstrated that putting troops into a place is always easier than withdrawing them. Once Americans die, there had damn well better be a reason for being there and, if there is, we damn well better win. In the Middle East, barring the economic need for oil, there is no reason for young Americans to die. I bought into that theory once. Not again.

Who is in those boots? Young Americans fighting ... who? Assad? ISIS? For the rebels? For some of the Rebels but against others? With Turkey but not with the Kurds? And when in this mish mash of religious radicalism, rampant ethnic loyalty, and generally undemocratic forces, we end up siding with folks who - it turns out - also commit atrocities, we inevitably make more enemies.

ISIS is bad. Assad is bad. Many of the rebels are bad. Not a lot of folks fighting for "Truth Justice and the American Way."

I don't know what the right answer is. I am convinced, however, "boots on the ground" is the wrong answer unless their is a clear, rock-solid, exit strategy. Because war is messy - particularly the war being fought in the ME, I just don't see a scenario that warrants Americans dying in the dessert.[/quote]

Here's the deal, and it's really a lot more simple than people want to make it. ISIS is coming to fight the West, whether you like it or not, no matter what.

They are either going to be permitted to operate in Iraq and Syria where they control lots of revenue-generating assets, and thus enabled to coordinate attacks throughout Europe, or someone is going to fight them on their turf, disrupting their ability to generate the cash necessary to fund their operations. But either way people are going to die, it's just a matter of how many, on whose side, and where that happens.

We are extremely fortunate here in the US that we don't face the same threat to our homeland that Europe does. Belgium demonstrates the severity of Europe's problem. So you could say there's no way we should put American boots on the ground without Europe (and Saudi Arabia and Jordan and Egypt and...) being along for the ride.

Except we were the ones who created the mess in the first place, by toppling Saddam and leaving before the power vacuum was adequately filled. So we, the United States of America, are to blame for creating an environment for ISIS to operate and fund its machine. Build a coalition, fine. But we have to go in. ISIS doesn't exist if we never toppled Saddam, and ISIS doesn't kill hundreds of Parisians and 30+ Belgians if not for our extremely serious mistakes.

Are these nations our NATO allies or not? We belong there, cleaning up our mess properly. Blame it on Bush if you want, that's appropriate. But nevertheless it's the mess we left. We can't just practice sea gull foreign policy - fly in, sqwauk a lot, shit all over the place, and fly away.

We have a responsibility to the world now, like it or not.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

Obama had multiple opportunities to help end the Syrian Civil war. Obama had multiple opportunities to stop the ISIS breakout when they crossed into Iraq. Obama had multiple opportunities to not let ISIS dig in.

ISIS is clearly Obama problem and his willingness not to act. Pathetic to blame Bush. This is from a guy who hated the Bush administration.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Schneed10;1141375]Yet he starts out by saying he believes he has the authority to take the military action without Congressional approval. You blaming congress for refusing to answer when Obama himself acknowledges he didn't have to ask is the ultimate example of passing off responsibility.

Hold your president accountable.[/quote]

Could you imagine the daily outrage and calls for impeachment from republicans if Pres Obama did decide to unilaterally put US troops in harms way without the authorization of republican controlled congress? Imagine the feigned rage from o'reilly and cruz and mccain's blow hard wife every time a service member died -- "there is dead american blood on the president's hands!!" ... words like treason would be used.

Are republicans actually trying to spin this back at the Pres by saying he should have just violated the Constitution?

Wow.

maybe republicans should have put partisan politics to the side for once and worked with the Pres on this one.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=over the mountain;1141397]Could you imagine the daily outrage and calls for impeachment from republicans if Pres Obama did decide to unilaterally put US troops in harms way without the authorization of republican controlled congress? Imagine the feigned rage from o'reilly and cruz and mccain's blow hard wife every time a service member died -- "there is dead american blood on the president's hands!!" ... words like treason would be used.

Are republicans actually trying to spin this back at the Pres by saying he should have just violated the Constitution?

Wow.

maybe republicans should have put partisan politics to the side for once and worked with the Pres on this one.[/quote]

Aside from military force...what about just leadership from the highest position in the land? give me a break....Obama been a disaster with the Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, Israel, Iran, Russia.

Look around the world, hello, its on fire...your satisfied with his leadership?



This Cuba thing makes no sense...[url=http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/03/28/fidel-castro-president-obama-cuba-trip/82347680/]Fidel Castro to Obama: 'We don't need the empire to give us anything'[/url]

Its hilarity at its finest. Cuba is punking Obama now.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=over the mountain;1141397]Could you imagine the daily outrage and calls for impeachment from republicans if Pres Obama did decide to unilaterally put US troops in harms way without the authorization of republican controlled congress? Imagine the feigned rage from o'reilly and cruz and mccain's blow hard wife every time a service member died -- "there is dead american blood on the president's hands!!" ... words like treason would be used.

Are republicans actually trying to spin this back at the Pres by saying he should have just violated the Constitution?

Wow.

maybe republicans should have put partisan politics to the side for once and worked with the Pres on this one.[/quote]

And if they did they'd be a disgrace. But that's neither here nor there. Fact of the matter is Obama doesn't need Congressional approval on this because the US isn't declaring war on another nation state. He doesn't need congressional approval for military action against terrorists.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Schneed10;1141404]And if they did they'd be a disgrace. But that's neither here nor there. Fact of the matter is Obama doesn't need Congressional approval on this because the US isn't declaring war on another nation state. He doesn't need congressional approval for military action against terrorists.[/quote]

He was trying to get congressional approval for military action against Syria. Assad used chemical weapons on August 21, 2013. Less than 10 days later, Pres Obama sent his AUMF to congress re Assad and Syria. Republican controlled congress never voted on it or come up w their own proposal.

No way the Pres could have used the 9/11 AUMF to justify averting the US Constitution mandated congressional approval for a declaration of war and unilaterally authorize military action against the country of Syria.

Maybe he could have played word games and called syria terrorists and missile attacks on another country's army not a "declaration of war" (even though the AUMF allowed for boots on the ground) ... imagine how well that would have gone over w the o'reilly and cruz' of the world.

With the current political climate and the grid lock of a dem Pres and a repub congress ... damned if you, damned if you dont for both sides.

eff it - trump2016

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Schneed10;1141391]

They are either going to be permitted to operate in Iraq and Syria where they control lots of revenue-generating assets, and thus enabled to coordinate attacks throughout Europe, or someone is going to fight them on their turf, disrupting their ability to generate the cash necessary to fund their operations. [/quote]

again, we're already doing this and the speed at which we're doing this is being bottle-necked by political concerns between the many groups on the ground, not by military limitations. throwing 30,000+ more americans in the way would, in all likelihood, make the situation even more complicated then it already is.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=That Guy;1141411]again, we're already doing this and the speed at which we're doing this is being bottle-necked by political concerns between the many groups on the ground, not by military limitations. throwing 30,000+ more americans in the way would, in all likelihood, make the situation even more complicated then it already is.[/quote]

2 things...essentially we will not at this point because the Iraq troops and Iranian Shia brigades have refused our help on combat troops (you know we are supporting Iranian troops on the ground...insane) You can call it an agreement or not, but right now at this moment, they don't want our help on the ground(but love our air campaign and proudly cheer it).

Now in the Peshmerga and Yadiz controlled areas(large chunk of Northern Iraq), their troops would absolutely welcome us with open arms. They have asked us to come. They have been far and away the most effective group fighting against ISIS...but we will not help them because of an agreement with Turkey. We refuse to even arm them, which is some cowardly-Obama, state department bullshit.

We do have 2 firebases right now near Mosel within the Peshmerga controlled area which will serve as artillery with the coming assault on that city. These are being run by several hundred US Marines *only* with top-line artillery pieces...we also have an airstrip built near by.

We don't need 30k troops...Im not gonna talk the past because Obama fuck it up already but before we certainly coulda handled fuckin ISIS with 5k troops at the time of the break-out...easily too.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/16/politics/saudi-arabia-government-9-11-congress-bill/index.html]Saudis warn of economic reprisals if Congress passes 9/11 bill - CNNPolitics.com[/url]

Well because Saudi Arabia tells the Obama to jump and how high and Obama promptly does it. I mean come on, tell the Saudis to fuck off. They don't threaten us economics...sell the shit. This administration is so effin weak.

And the government should release the 28 page classified report becuase 9/11 victims deserve to know what foreign government would sponsor the attack.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

the saudis have been telling our presidents what to do for a long while now.