Re: All things Middle East related
 

[url]https://twitter.com/williamlegate/status/1426927462320066575[/url]

If I didn't know any better I'd swear this reminds me of someone else's agenda.

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I feel so bad for the people 30 and under. Weve been there for 20 years and all they knew was non-taliban life. Now, in short order, you have clothes stores painting over their window advertisements, music is banned ...

This is a sad day, lots of human fear and suffering going on

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[quote=Chico23231;1287497]This is an epic failure. Look how the previous administration left the Middle East and what’s going on now.

Saigon on steroids…look at the airport in Kabal

And Cowardness by Biden to hide at this time is truly amazing. Adults are back!
[/quote]
.............you should be tried for treason chico.

It actually was his plan. You can take a look at the deal we signed in Doha under his administration. Should be noted that Trump as well wanted to meet with the Taliban at Camp David.

Here's what was in the agreement:

We would withdraw by May 1st (Original withdrawal deadline)
We release 5,000 Taliban fighters that were captured by us.
We lift all sanctions against the Taliban

This is what Trump said after the deal was signed:

"It's time after all these years to bring our people back home"
"time for someone else to do that work and it will be the Taliban and it could be surrounding countries"
"I really believe the Taliban wants to do something to show we're not all wasting time,"

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[quote=SunnySide;1287503]I feel so bad for the people 30 and under. Weve been there for 20 years and all they knew was non-taliban life. Now, in short order, you have clothes stores painting over their window advertisements, music is banned ...

This is a sad day, lots of human fear and suffering going on[/quote]

So why aren't they fighting for it, only America live must die to protect the Afghans is that it???

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[quote=Giantone;1287514]So why aren't they fighting for it, only America live must die to protect the Afghans is that it???[/quote]

Your reply to what I said is ... odd. Im not following.

Theres 9 year old girls that were going to school yesterday but not tomorrow.

Youre allowed to feel bad for people ... people in much worse situations than you or I could imagine.

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[quote=Giantone;1287512].............you should be tried for treason chico.

It actually was his plan. You can take a look at the deal we signed in Doha under his administration. Should be noted that Trump as well wanted to meet with the Taliban at Camp David.

Here's what was in the agreement:

We would withdraw by May 1st (Original withdrawal deadline)
We release 5,000 Taliban fighters that were captured by us.
We lift all sanctions against the Taliban

This is what Trump said after the deal was signed:

"It's time after all these years to bring our people back home"
"time for someone else to do that work and it will be the Taliban and it could be surrounding countries"
"I really believe the Taliban wants to do something to show we're not all wasting time,"[/quote]

Joe Biden has had no problem whatsoever revoking agreements and policies made by Trump as well as charting his own coarse on just about everything. He could have done so here or at least made it clear to those goons that we were getting our people out without their interference and that they best back off lest we send the B-52s their way.

Trump is blowhard and cannot find Afghanistan on a grade school map. He is also out of office.

One would expect a former Senator, former Vice-President, and Current President to do just a bit more than lay low at Camp David.

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[quote=JackLord;1287520]Joe Biden has had no problem whatsoever revoking agreements and policies made by Trump as well as charting his own coarse on just about everything. He could have done so here or at least made it clear to those goons that we were getting our people out without their interference and that they best back off lest we send the B-52s their way.

Trump is blowhard and cannot find Afghanistan on a grade school map. He is also out of office.

One would expect a former Senator, former Vice-President, and Current President to do just a bit more than lay low at Camp David.[/quote]

Like what dance in front of the TV for you like trump would, maybe have a rose garden press conference? trump is very much apart of this it was his withdrawal plan and since he is the head of the republican party and still running for Office he is relevant.

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[quote=JackLord;1287520]Joe Biden has had no problem whatsoever revoking agreements and policies made by Trump as well as charting his own coarse on just about everything. He could have done so here or at least made it clear to those goons that we were getting our people out without their interference and that they best back off lest we send the B-52s their way.

Trump is blowhard and cannot find Afghanistan on a grade school map. He is also out of office.

One would expect a former Senator, former Vice-President, and Current President to do just a bit more than lay low at Camp David.[/quote]

Did you want to stay in Afghanistan? We sent a group to meet with the Taliban and allow the peaceful evacuation of our Embassy. All embassy personnel and diplomats have been evacuated.

We are now flying up to 5k afghan translators, contractors etc out per day.

We sent an addl 5k US troops to secure the translators, contractors evacuations.

This is what a withdrawl from a hostile country looks like.

You talk like we had diplomats killed and taken hostage.

[url]https://www.npr.org/2021/08/16/1028027315/u-s-embassy-staff-in-afghanistan-are-evacuated-to-kabuls-airport[/url]

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[quote=SunnySide;1287534]Did you want to stay in Afghanistan? We sent a group to meet with the Taliban and allow the peaceful evacuation of our Embassy. All embassy personnel and diplomats have been evacuated.

We are now flying up to 5k afghan translators, contractors etc out per day.

We sent an addl 5k US troops to secure the translators, contractors evacuations.

This is what a withdrawl from a hostile country looks like.

You talk like we had diplomats killed and taken hostage.

[url]https://www.npr.org/2021/08/16/1028027315/u-s-embassy-staff-in-afghanistan-are-evacuated-to-kabuls-airport[/url][/quote]

Staying in Afghanistan would have been the correct and best decision. Already pointed out we were rarely taking casualties (Last one was in February/March 2020 timeframe) and we weren't even spending much money there anymore. Pretty sure this decision will end up costing us more in US lives and treasure than it would have if we had stayed.

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[quote=nonniey;1287537]Staying in Afghanistan would have been the correct and best decision. Already pointed out we were rarely taking casualties (Last one was in February/March 2020 timeframe) and we weren't even spending much money there anymore. Pretty sure this decision will end up costing us more in US lives and treasure than it would have if we had stayed.[/quote]

Thats interesting .. dont see many people thinking we should have stayed.

I get the impression those ANA guys we were training for the past 20 years were just Taliban fighters.

Now we get to save our 4.9B in aid annually.
Get to stop training Taliban fighters.
Save tons of money not needing to maintain 5k or so troops plus contractors.

I just feel so bad for the woman and little girls in Kabul and the urban areas.

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[quote=SunnySide;1287538]Thats interesting .. dont see many people thinking we should have stayed.

I get the impression those ANA guys we were training for the past 20 years were just Taliban fighters.

Now we get to save our 4.9B in aid annually.
Get to stop training Taliban fighters.
Save tons of money not needing to maintain 5k or so troops plus contractors.

I just feel so bad for the woman and little girls in Kabul and the urban areas.[/quote]

As I said - I'm pretty sure leaving will ultimately will cost more in both lives and treasure (The 4.9B annually and other costs you mentioned), and significantly so. Most Americans were against lend lease in 1940-41. Good leadership sells it to them or even ignores it if they can withstand the political cost (Roosevelt did both). The best decision for US interests would have been to stay. The effects of this decision will not be localized look for China to become even more aggressive in the west Pacific.

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[quote=nonniey;1287541]As I said - I'm pretty sure leaving will ultimately will cost more in both lives and treasure (The 4.9B annually you mentioned), and significantly so. Most Americans were against lend lease in 1940-41. Good leadership sells it to them or even ignores it if they can withstand the political cost (Roosevelt did both). The best decision for US interests would have been to stay.[/quote]

I just dont see it as being in our interest.

save lives - bc our presence would prevent some future 9/11 event?

save treasure - cant think of any way staying would save us money.

Can you explain the lives and treasure thing?

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[quote=Giantone;1287531]Like what dance in front of the TV for you like trump would, maybe have a rose garden press conference? trump is very much apart of this it was his withdrawal plan and since he is the head of the republican party and still running for Office he is relevant.[/quote]

No, at this juncture it is Joe Biden who is both President and Commander in Chief. He makes the decisions, not Donald Trump or Donald Duck.

He had the numerous options up to and including unleashing a lethal military strike on them while we extracted our people and our allies. He failed to do so.

And Jintsfan- I vote for Joe Biden. So throwing the Trump name at me is not going to do much good.

And you know damn well that if Trump were POTUS right now, you would be going completely nuts. And for good reason.

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[quote=SunnySide;1287543]I just dont see it as being in our interest.

save lives - bc our presence would prevent some future 9/11 event?

save treasure - cant think of any way staying would save us money.

Can you explain the lives and treasure thing?[/quote]

Well future terrorist events you raised (Doesn't have to be at 9/11 level - just an increased level of international terrorism). Additionally, it wouldn't surprise me that we lose some of the 5K soldiers deploying to the airport (They are in a pretty risky position/situation) and the potential exists we might actually have to reoccupy (Don't expect this but if another 9/11 occurs related to the Taliban....).

Other states/groups becoming more aggressive due to showing a weak hand (This always happens, always) will cost treasure and potentially lives depending on the situation/action. Russia getting more aggressive in the Ukraine, China in the western Pacific, Iran in the Persian Gulf, would not be surprising.

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[quote=SunnySide;1287534]Did you want to stay in Afghanistan? We sent a group to meet with the Taliban and allow the peaceful evacuation of our Embassy. All embassy personnel and diplomats have been evacuated.

We are now flying up to 5k afghan translators, contractors etc out per day.

We sent an addl 5k US troops to secure the translators, contractors evacuations.

This is what a withdrawl from a hostile country looks like.

You talk like we had diplomats killed and taken hostage.

[url]https://www.npr.org/2021/08/16/1028027315/u-s-embassy-staff-in-afghanistan-are-evacuated-to-kabuls-airport[/url][/quote]

I always thought nation building in Afghanistan was not the best of ideas.

But that is not the issue. The issue is allowing them to advance without getting our people out. At the moment, all our people are not out.

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[quote=JackLord;1287545]No, at this juncture it is Joe Biden who is both President and Commander in Chief. He makes the decisions, not Donald Trump or Donald Duck.

He had the [B]numerous options up to and including unleashing a lethal military strike on them while we extracted our people and our allies[/B]. He failed to do so.

And Jintsfan- I vote for Joe Biden. So throwing the Trump name at me is not going to do much good.

And you know damn well that if Trump were POTUS right now, you would be going completely nuts. And for good reason.[/quote]

If your goal is having our people and allies extracted ... that is exactly what is happening. Our embassy has been completely evacuated.

We have over 5k troops patrolling/controlling the airport while the US,France, Turkey, Britain and all these other countries fly "friendlies" out. Biggest problem is airplanes cant land bc of all the people on the tarmac. A Turkish 757 was able to land and then depart today.

Taliban is staying away from the airport, like we asked them to. 2 gunman were shot and killed today by US forces.

So far .. we are done evacuating our people and are working to get as many friendlies out for as long as the taliban will uphold this appearance of peaceful transfer.

Biggest worry is the contractors and friendlies trapped in their apartments or unable to make it to the airport.

I imagine there are some real deal US special force covert ops going on right now trying to get to some homes and evacuating those people to the airport.

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[quote=nonniey;1287546]Well future terrorist events you raised (Doesn't have to be at 9/11 level - just an increased level of international terrorism). Additionally, it wouldn't surprise me that we lose some of the 5K soldiers deploying to the airport (They are in a pretty risky position/situation) and the potential exists we might actually have to reoccupy (Don't expect this but if another 9/11 occurs related to the Taliban....).

Other states/groups becoming more aggressive due to showing a weak hand (This always happens, always) will cost treasure and potentially lives depending on the situation/action. Russia getting more aggressive in the Ukraine, China in the western Pacific, Iran in the Persian Gulf, would not be surprising.[/quote]

'future terrorist event" ... I dont know, that seems like a future hypothetical that is impossible to answer. a future terrorist event will occur on US soil again but whether its bc we left afghanistan or not is impossible to prove.

"weak hand" ... again, these are philosophical ivory tower debates imo. When trump puled us out of Syria the same arguments were made so I guess its fair here. Although both parties presidents wanted to pull out.

"5k troops remaining to secure airport while we evacuate our friendlies" -- Im worried about that was well. Seems like taliban understands the long game and the benefit of patience. They waited 20 years knowing we would eventually leave.

They seem to be patient now as we pack up and go.

Theres a female CNN reporter on the streets and so far she was only asked to stand aside by the taliban. Next week im guessing shes tortured, raped and beheaded if shes not out of there.

I just dont see any US upside to staying.

this is very interesting seeing it play out live. i just hope we get as many people out asap. Then I have to turn my american eye blind to Kabul .. I cant handle the weight of thinking about what they will be going through. They have my heart, thoughts and prayers ... but I cant let world suffering and events get in my head otherwise I dont think I could get up out of bed.

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[quote=SunnySide;1287548]If your goal is having our people and allies extracted ... that is exactly what is happening. Our embassy has been completely evacuated.

We have over 5k troops patrolling/controlling the airport while the US,France, Turkey, Britain and all these other countries fly "friendlies" out. Biggest problem is airplanes cant land bc of all the people on the tarmac. A Turkish 757 was able to land and then depart today.

Taliban is staying away from the airport, like we asked them to. 2 gunman were shot and killed today by US forces.

So far .. we are done evacuating our people and are working to get as many friendlies out for as long as the taliban will uphold this appearance of peaceful transfer.

[B]Biggest worry is the contractors and friendlies trapped in their apartments or unable to make it to the airport. [/B]

I imagine there are some real deal US special force covert ops going on right now trying to get to some homes and evacuating those people to the airport.[/quote]

One might think it would have been more prudent to extract everyone long before the Taliban even reach the outskirts of Kabul. Friendlies trapped in apartments is rather frightening.

I vote for Biden. I do not take pleasure in seeing him humiliated. But this is a disaster by any definition.

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[quote=JackLord;1287551]One might think it would have been more prudent to extract everyone long before the Taliban even reach the outskirts of Kabul. Friendlies trapped in apartments is rather frightening.

I vote for Biden. I do not take pleasure in seeing him humiliated. But this is a disaster by any definition.[/quote]

I agree, it pains me to think about what those people and their families will face if they can't get out.

It is a failure of Biden. I am comfortable laying the blame at his feet for the poor execution of the withdrawal, and his "blame the last guy" message that the last guy made famous.

But in the end, I also agree with the decision to leave. Just wish the plan and execution had been better.

My sympathy to those who have worked their lives to affect change for the better in Afghanistan, and whose rewards will be nil - or worse - death and/or suffering.

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Imagine trying to defend Biden actions as the Taliban start to impose terror upon its people.

Jfc

Also we know Americans are in the country and can’t get our. What a disgrace

This is the worst foreign policy fuck up in our lifetime.

Nope, Trump never fucked up this bad. That’s a fact.

Own it!

Adults are back in charge…imagine being this retarted

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[quote=SunnySide;1287543]I just dont see it as being in our interest.

save lives - bc our presence would prevent some future 9/11 event?

save treasure - cant think of any way staying would save us money.

Can you explain the lives and treasure thing?[/quote]

Explain why Biden policy failed…go ahead and break it down.

You seem to think it’s not in our interest after 2.5 trillion dollars have been spent.

U seem to excuse the Biden withdrawal…why is that?

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[quote=Chico23231;1287564]Imagine trying to defend Biden actions as the Taliban start to impose terror upon its people.

Jfc

Also we know Americans are in the country and can’t get our. What a disgrace

This is the worst foreign policy fuck up in our lifetime.

Nope, Trump never fucked up this bad. That’s a fact.

Own it!

Adults are back in charge…imagine being this retarted[/quote]

Imagine typing on a message board and thinking anyone cares what a hardline conservative has to say about a democrat fuckup.

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[quote=Chico23231;1287568]Explain why Biden policy failed…go ahead and break it down.

You seem to think it’s not in our interest after 2.5 trillion dollars have been spent.

U seem to excuse the Biden withdrawal…why is that?[/quote]

chico,....STFU.

[url]https://www.dw.com/en/timeline-us-and-nato-involvement-in-afghanistan/a-58870236[/url]

July 2018: US enters official negotiations with the Taliban without involving the elected Afghan government or NATO partners

February 2020: The US and the Taliban sign the Doha Agreement and the Taliban projects itself as the winner of its war against mighty NATO as foreign troops agree to withdraw.

September 2020: Intra-Afghan peace talks begin in the Qatari capital, Doha, but soon stall.

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😂!!!

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[quote=mooby;1287569]Imagine typing on a message board and thinking anyone cares what a hardline conservative has to say about a democrat fuckup.[/quote]

He's a Trumpster. Trumpsters aren't conservatives.

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[quote=nonniey;1287575]He's a Trumpster. Trumpsters aren't conservatives.[/quote]

Nailed it. I’m a conservative. Chico is an idiot.

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[quote=mooby;1287557]I agree, it pains me to think about what those people and their families will face if they can't get out.

It is a failure of Biden. I am comfortable laying the blame at his feet for the poor execution of the withdrawal, and his "blame the last guy" message that the last guy made famous.

[B]But in the end, I also agree with the decision to leave.[/B] Just wish the plan and execution had been better.

My sympathy to those who have worked their lives to affect change for the better in Afghanistan, and whose rewards will be nil - or worse - death and/or suffering.[/quote]

As does almost everybody.

We all knew we were leaving. And while one could- [I]could[/I]- make an argument for remaining, most are fine with departing.

It is simply the manner in which it was done.

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Chico how is the island you are on? I would ask someone else but it’s just you there….

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[quote=mooby;1287569]Imagine typing on a message board and thinking anyone cares what a hardline conservative has to say about a democrat fuckup.[/quote]

You are right. My rant and raving was a bit much yesterday. Apologies to you…SS and punch

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[quote=punch it in;1287616]Chico how is the island you are on? I would ask someone else but it’s just you there….[/quote]

Funny, cause I’m actually on an island. Cheers to u!

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[quote=JackLord;1287614]As does almost everybody.

We all knew we were leaving. And while one could- [I]could[/I]- make an argument for remaining, most are fine with departing.

It is simply the manner in which it was done.[/quote]

This is correct…

All things Middle East related
 

[QUOTE=Chico23231;1287626]This is correct…[/QUOTE]


It is. The question remains though is why? I still believe that they thought they had waaaaaay more time. That is what everyone is saying that is in the know. Nobody on this board is privy to the intelligence that Biden was getting.
The fact that they are now sending troops back in to help with the evacuation is proof of this. Nobody knew the security forces left in Afghanistan were going to fold that quickly. Maybe some had a hunch, but I believe the Intelligence on the ground there was saying anywhere from 30-90 days before the Taliban could take Kabul.
And for Trump to come out and pounce on this as a political moment is laughable. When Congress voted to speed up the visa process for some there only 16 members voted against it - all republicans- all in Trumps circle , so dont turn around now and say I told you so. That is nothing more than them looking to rake Biden over the coals for this in hopes of 2022/4. I will admit Biden should have probably been more cautious with the withdraw - but Trumpers must admit that he would have listened to the same intelligence and done the same thing. He was chomping at the bit to get the troops out of there. This is your opportunity for a meet you in the middle moment Chico.

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[quote=nonniey;1287575]He's a Trumpster. Trumpsters aren't conservatives.[/quote]

Jeez you went straight for the name calling/personal insult post, didn’t see that coming. Dare I say, very Trump of you.

Honestly thought this was a G1 post at first…who is the only “real” conservative on this board

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[quote=punch it in;1287631]It is. The question remains though is why? I still believe that they thought they had waaaaaay more time. That is what everyone is saying that is in the know. Nobody on this board is privy to the intelligence that Biden was getting.
The fact that they are now sending troops back in to help with the evacuation is proof of this. Nobody knew the security forces left in Afghanistan were going to fold that quickly. Maybe some had a hunch, but I believe the Intelligence on the ground there was saying anywhere from 30-90 days before the Taliban could take Kabul.[/quote]

Oh no Biden royally fucked this

This big problem now is getting the estimated 10k Americans out the country.

Just thinking of the Afghanistan women it will be terrible for them

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[QUOTE=Chico23231;1287633]Oh no Biden royally fucked this

This big problem now is getting the estimated 10k Americans out the country.

Just thinking of the Afghanistan women it will be terrible for them[/QUOTE]


Do you honestly think Trump had a plan in place for the women there? What about the only 16 no votes in Congress about speeding up the visa process to get people out coming from 16 Trump Republicans? You can keep telling yourself it would have gone differently for Trump but you’re wrong. Intelligence was telling Biden 30-90 days - and Trump would have been told the same thing. This was a huge under estimation of the Taliban and a huge over estimation of the security forces by the Intelligence over there. That is all.

[url]https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/08/afghanistan-withdrawal-trump-biden.amp[/url]

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[QUOTE=Chico23231;1287622]You are right. My rant and raving was a bit much yesterday. Apologies to you…SS and punch[/QUOTE]


I thought Smoot was back on the board for a minute. I miss that guy.

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[quote=punch it in;1287635]I thought Smoot was back on the board for a minute. I miss that guy.[/quote]

Miss that dude…yeah Sunnyside is the SS now

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[quote=Chico23231;1287632]Jeez you went straight for the name calling/personal insult post, didn’t see that coming. Dare I say, very Trump of you.

Honestly thought this was a G1 post at first…who is the only “real” conservative on this board[/quote]

If you are not a Trumpster I apologize and since you think Trumpster is an insult that possibly indicates you aren't. So I am confused a bit as you defend him and seem to hold him in high esteem as Trumpsters would.

As for being a "real ' conservative - someone who supports Trump simply can't be a conservative. Trump wasn't a conservative so how can those who support him be? He is an isolationist, opposed to free trade, opposed legal immigration, opposed social security reform and spent like a drunk sailor. All those positions are anathema to conservatives (and at least 3 of them are dem positions).

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The question you need to be asking yourself as a Trumper or Trump supporter or whatever the pc name is for you anti pc Trump folks (i know the irony is crazy ) is would Trump be sending troops back in and realizing his error like Biden is doing? Or would Trump simply be blaming Obama and doubling and tripling down on the withdraw while his supporters chanted America first fuck Afghanistan?
#rememberthekurds

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[quote=Chico23231;1287622]You are right. My rant and raving was a bit much yesterday. Apologies to you…SS and punch[/quote]

Thanks. My apologies to you too.