Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[quote=SkinEmAll;279351]It IS a big deal to change it. All this pc crap is bullshit. I will never be in favor of changing the name. And its not ONLY the white fans who oppose. have you done a poll on the fans that are white, black, asian,hispanic, indian and whatever else there is out there? I dont buy that for one second that. The only people who oppose this should focus their efforts on something worth a shit. Everyone I have ever known as a Redskin fan, black, white ,phillipino,[B]INDIAN[/B], think of [B]football [/B]only when they hear, read or say redskin. Im sick of it. There are truly soooooooooooooo many more things these people need to focus on, not this. I must step away from the computer now before I really say how I feel. Mic Light time out.[/quote]
Native American....

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[QUOTE]4 results for: redskin

–noun Slang: Often Disparaging and Offensive.
a North American Indian.
[Origin: 1690–1700, Americanism; red1 + skin]

red·skin (rěd'skĭn') Pronunciation Key
n. Offensive Slang
Used as a disparaging term for a Native American.

redskin
"American Indian," 1699. Red as the skin color of Native Americans is from 1587; red man is from 1587.

redskin
noun
offensive terms for Native Americans[/QUOTE]

Something to consider: these are the only results from dictionary.com. 3 out of 4 say "offensive" and not one references football.

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[QUOTE=hooskins;279364]Native American....[/QUOTE]

Holla!

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[quote=jdlea;279367]Something to consider: these are the only results from dictionary.com. 3 out of 4 say "offensive" and not one references football.[/quote]
Then why did all those native american groups surveyed say the Washington Redskins were not offensive?

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[QUOTE=hooskins;279370]Then why did all those native american groups surveyed say the Washington Redskins were not offensive?[/QUOTE]

I'm not really saying that they should change the name, I'm just presenting facts. I don't really think it matters what I think, it's gonna change. It doesn't matter how I feel about the situation, I think it's going to happen. I'm concerned about a lot more important things than the name of the football team in Washington.

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;279348]In your opinion it's offensive. In my opinion it's not. I always heard it referred to the face paint Indians used to apply before going into battle. I am aware that the phrase 'red skin' was at one time used as a derogatory term, but there could be two different meanings.

But here's the key -- why should one party who claims to be offended always be in the position to dictate over the offending party and force them to change or cease what they were doing based solely on the perception of the one who was offended?

It's the principle that would get people upset if the offended parties got their way and succeeded in forcing the Redskins to change their name and logo.

Can we all get together as Redskins fans and suddenly become offended at the name "Cowboys" and blue star logos? What would prevent the Cowboys from being obligated to conceed to our demands?[/QUOTE]

In my opionion i dont give a crap. It has nothing to do with me, that's the point. The name Redskins has an ethnically specific context which has been deemed to be offensive by many, ergo the repeated efforts to change it. I just think there is something inherently patronizing about someone from outside of that ethnic group dictating to them what they should and should not be offended by. And I don't think I really need to take the time to break down the differences between Cowboys and Redskins right? That argument makes no sense. People arent suddenly becoming offended by the nickname.

But if someone told me that a lawn ornament I was displaying offended them for some reason I didn't understand, my reaction would be, well I think you may be overreacting, however I am going to err on the side of not offending you and get a different ornament. It's just an ornament after all.

As a Jew people frequently make comments that do legitimitaly offend me; but what bothers me more is their response when I point out to them that they should not say whatever it was they said. They respond, ooh, here comes the PC police, everybody gotta get in line. I think many of the responses surrounding this debate are similar.

And by the way, Redskins referers to the scalps of Indians which were rewarded with bounty payments.

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[QUOTE=hooskins;279370]Then why did all those native american groups surveyed say the Washington Redskins were not offensive?[/QUOTE]

The Native American community has mixed attitudes about it; some hate it, others don't mind it, and still others love it. A close family friend is a Menominee Indian and she cannot stand the name, thinks it's so unbelievably disrespectful, and says that if people knew the history of the term they wouldn't support it. She equates it to calling the team the Washington N----rs.

As I said earlier, I'm not so passionate about the issue and, frankly, I don't understand people who get so worked up about it one way or the other. I don't think the term Redskin is as bad as some other racial epithets, but it's not exactly 100% free of prejudice (at least when you consider the term's history).

It seems to be very similar to a Confederate Flag, only a lot more of us are familiar with the history of the stars and bars than the history of the term "Redskin." There are a lot of people who do not associate the Confederate Flag with racism or slavery, rather they think of the Southern lifestyle and their home states. There are others who are conscious of the flag's history and therefore understandably hate it.

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65;279376]As a Jew people frequently make comments that do legitimitaly offend me; but what bothers me more is their response when I point out to them that they should not say whatever it was they said. They respond, ooh, here comes the PC police, everybody gotta get in line. I think many of the responses surrounding this debate are similar.

And by the way, Redskins referers to the scalps of Indians which were rewarded with bounty payments.[/QUOTE]


I totally understand how you feel djnemo65. I find it somewhat interesting that so-called civil libertarians who get so riled up about the "PC police" think that no one has the right to get offended.

Again, I'm not all against the Redskins name/logo (in fact I love it), but I can understand why people would be upset by it.

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;279377]The Native American community has mixed attitudes about it; some hate it, others don't mind it, and still others love it. A close family friend is a Menominee Indian and she cannot stand the name, thinks it's so unbelievably disrespectful, and says that if people knew the history of the term they wouldn't support it. She equates it to calling the team the Washington N----rs.

As I said earlier, I'm not so passionate about the issue and, frankly, I don't understand people who get so worked up about it one way or the other. I don't think the term Redskin is as bad as some other racial epithets, but it's not exactly 100% free of prejudice (at least when you consider the term's history).

It seems to be very similar to a Confederate Flag, only a lot more of us are familiar with the history of the stars and bars than the history of the term "Redskin." There are a lot of people who do not associate the Confederate Flag with racism or slavery, rather they think of the Southern lifestyle and their home states. There are others who are conscious of the flag's history and therefore understandably hate it.[/quote]
Yeah, I want to dig up an article with that survey and it's specifics. But I do see where you are coming from. Either way I think one of the guys brought up a good idea, how about continue with the name Washington Redskins, but change the logo on the helmet or remove it. That way both sides get a bit of what they want.

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

By the same token a close friend of mine is Cherokee and he has no problem whatsoever with the name, so you have both ends of the spectrum.

But the lawsuit isn't about dropping the name, it's about dropping the trademark protection...which would be great for Summo who can sell his wallpapers worldwide!

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[quote=jdlea;279375]I'm not really saying that they should change the name, I'm just presenting facts. I don't really think it matters what I think, it's gonna change. It doesn't matter how I feel about the situation, I think it's going to happen. I'm concerned about a lot more important things than the name of the football team in Washington.[/quote]

Yes there are many things more important in life than the name of our favorite football team. But some things are worth fighting for. I just cant imagine such a small group who thinks they speak for all Indian nations, oh excuse me, Native frickin americans, winning a battle like this. It is a name of a football team, that what it is associated with. You dont see guys in a bar fight yelling, "im gonna kick yer ass you,you, redskin!!" I think its a waste of time and money and energy.

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[url=http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:o5w_sD-3LeIJ:www.annenbergpublicpolicycenter.org/naes/2004_03_redskins_09-24_pr.pdf+Washington+Redskins+survey+native+americans+name&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a]Annenberg Public Policy Center 1 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATE: September 24, 2004 CONTACT:[/url]

[FONT=Times][SIZE=3][FONT=Times][B]Most Indians Say [B]Name[/B] of [B]Washington[/B] “[B]Redskins[/B]” Is Acceptable [/B]
[B]While 9 Percent Call It Offensive, Annenberg Data Show [/B]
[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[quote=skinsguy;279330]I'm sure if people dig enough, they can find offense in everything on this planet.[/quote]
this has got to be the best post ever on this subject

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;279381]I totally understand how you feel djnemo65. I find it somewhat interesting that so-called civil libertarians who get so riled up about the "PC police" think that no one has the right to get offended.

Again, I'm not all against the Redskins name/logo (in fact I love it), but I can understand why people would be upset by it.[/QUOTE]

While I'm not really happy if they have to change the name, I really don't care. If it offends people, what is the harm in changing it. The problem, as some see it, is also the logo. While some believe it portrays nobility, it actually portrays "the noble savage" another stereotype that a lot of Native Americans resent. The fact is the name is considered derogatory and the team puts a caricature on the side of the helmet. Whether people wanna make a big deal about it or not is their prerogative. Should they choose to not care, then I don't care. However, if there becomes an uproar over a name change, I won't belittle anyone for feeling the way they do.

I'm part Asian and there are plenty of things that irritate/offend me. I don't feel the need to list them, but there are often caricatures of Asians portrayed and makes me almost irrate. I can understand where people can become offended because it's hard to understand when you're not a member of the race.

Example: Bill Parcells' comment about "Jap plays" really pissed me off. So, everyone making a big deal about Irvin's behavior...Parcells made a racist remark, I'm more upset that he's working for ESPN than anyone has a right to be over Michael Irvin. Well, until he made the comment about Italian Americans.

Re: Mascot Issue (AGAIN)
 

[QUOTE=SkinEmAll;279385] You dont see guys in a bar fight yelling, "im gonna kick yer ass you,you, redskin!!"[/QUOTE]

I might if I ever saw Native Americans. I, personally, have never met one and no frame of reference as to how any of them feel as about the subject. I just don't think this is that big of a deal.