Commanders Post at The Warpath

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- - Mike Martz (http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?t=27488)

i just thought with every one calling for a vertical passing game, this would be the man. im not if he is? but that offense of ours was painful to watch most of the year

[quote=dmek25;515536]i just thought with every one calling for a vertical passing game, this would be the man. im not if he is? but that offense of ours was painful to watch most of the year[/quote]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Lets face it, our offense has been painful to watch ever since Norv Turner got the axe. Marty never had time to get it going. Spurrier got our QB killed. Gibbs/ Saunders were never consistent. Now we have Zorn and the ever so popular WCO. It is going to take at least another season for the guys to get comfortable running it. Remember how long it to McNabb to develop?[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Martz is not a West Coast coordinator. Its like trying to make a cover 2 corner play man to man... the 2 do not mesh. Martz would have to learn the WCO or they would have to reinstall the Vertical passing game. That is exactly the type of change that we do not need. If we do not pick one system and stick with it, then our offense is going to be forever dreadful. [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]In reality I do not expect to see significant strides in the offense for another 2 seasons. It is unrealistic to expect a Juggernaut in less than 4 seasons unless you already have a Pro Bowl Caliber QB. As much as I like JC he is not there yet. If we just stay on pace and keep at it, we can get there. No more changes.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I understand that I am reiterating several thing that were already said by other posters, but it seems necessary because I do not think that everyone truly grasps the intricacies of what would have to happen to bring Martz in. Thanks for your time.[/FONT][/COLOR]

Another new offense?

Brilliant.

:doh:

If there was a time to bring in Martz it would have been last year so he could build off of Saunders offense, not now. If we bring someone in, it will be a WCO guru.

I'd love Snyder to offer Holmgren something like $1 million to become an 'offensive consultant' or something. Nothing official like a coaching position or threatening to Cerrato or Zorn's job, but something that will let him work closely with Zorn on developing the offense while not being around all the time.

Sources from ESPN and NFL.COM said that Holmgren will take a year off in 2009 and considering a comeback in 2010 as a GM or president.

The reason being is..

[url=http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/12/25/SPTV14VA0L.DTL]Singletary on board, so go get Turner[/url]

[quote=skinsfan1987;515569][B]Sources from ESPN and NFL.COM said that Holmgren will take a year off in 2009 and considering a comeback in 2010 as a GM or president.[/B][/quote]

If it's true that Snyder gave Vinny and Zorn 2 years to get things going.....Vinny better really make good or Holmgren may be getting an offer from Danny Boy.

[quote=The Goat;515504]I still tend to agree w/ him, but it's pretty obvious, almost painfully obvious, the playbook has to be expanded to make our offense really competitive. [COLOR="Red"]Been wondering if Zorn just hasn't [SIZE="4"]trusted[/SIZE] the guys enough, not just the rooks but JC and the rest of the veteran squad also, to open things up and get crafty?[/COLOR] From his perspective it's pretty reasonable to demand execution on the simple stuff before graduating his players to the "magic" we all know resides in WCO land.
:D[/quote]

^^Great question.
IMO the offensive line struggles played a huge role in the lack of offense. Early in the season the run blocking and pass-pro were good. The plays were creative and the offense scored points.
As the season progressed the offensive line struggles began and pass-pro declined. Zorn changes the play calling [I][B]because[/B][/I] of the pass-pro problems. I recall Zorn saying that he called quicker rhythm pass plays i.e 3-step drop passes to take the pressure off the o-line and to keep Jason upright.
Defense's then gear themselves to cover three step drop routes because they know that we can't/won't attack downfield. And with our receivers corps its a simple task...bracket coverage on Moss and Cooley or some underneath zone.

Its hard to call plays knowing that your offensive cannot hold up.
My problem is that [B][I]after[/I][/B] Zorn realized this he couldn't/didn't find creative plays [I]within[/I] the 3-step drop framework. Our offensive consisted mostly of I-From 3 step drop hitches, square in and slants with very few formations, limited shifts and motion.

IMO this is where having an OC new to the WCO and coaches and assistants that don't know the WCO hurt.

How can Zorn (the HC, play caller, defacto QB coach and assistant OC) find the time to recognize the changes needed at each postion then teach/show Sherman Smith the changes needed so that he can teach/show the position coaches who aren't familiar with the WCO? How can these postion coaches ask the questions about the changes unless they have Zorn's input?

Did anyone notice the changes after Zorn gave the players the day off last monday when Zorn said that the coaches were going to reevaluate the offense?

They used a formation we had not seen all year: I-Form Single Wide w/ double TE stack

IMO this shows if given enough [I]time[/I] CAN make changes. And the only way for Zorn to get more time is to wear fewer hats. In order to wear fewer hats he needs coaches that he know the system.

[quote=53Fan;515502]I don't think Zorn plans on anyone else calling the plays but him. Unless he decides to turn it over to Sherman Smith. Remember, he doesn't think the playcalling is the problem....it's the execution.[/quote]
[B][I]Part[/I][/B] of the problem is execution. When a play is called and eveything works out and the pass is dropped or fumbled its an execution issue.
Same with false starts, holding, pass interference, illegal formation, missed blocks, miss reads by the RB or QB, and errant passes.

[quote=steveo395;515500]Why does Dorn need to bring in a new coordinator. He already brought in Sherman Smith, who was his own guy, last year.[/quote]

I agree 100%.
I don't think Smith's job is in jeopardy b/c i remember reading that Zorn and Smith are friends and Zorn had to convince Smith to come here.
I doubt that Zorn would hire a new OC. Smith's track record shows that he is a good coach and if given the time and help should succeed as an WCO OC.
But, that isn't to say that Zorn/Vinnie shouldn't hire a couple of offensive assistants and/or a QB coach or postion coaches familiar from a WCO.

[quote=The Goat;515499]Pretty sure I asked this question in another thread and didn't hear anything back: who might Zorn bring in as a WCO playcaller/OC? After all the time he's spent in football he's got to have some folks he's thought of working with.[/quote]

I have no idea who Zorn might bring in, but i have my ideas from:
[url]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/27348-fake-wr-screen-2.html[/url]

Pat Shurmur
Quarterbacks Coach

One of the rising stars in the NFL's coaching ranks, Pat Shurmur is in his seventh season as the Eagles quarterbacks coach and his tenth as a member of Andy Reid's staff.........

[url=http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/team/CoachBios.asp?coach_id=13]Philadelphia Eagles[/url]
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[COLOR="Teal"]Frank Pollack
Assistant Offensive Line Coach
2nd NFL season
2nd with Texans[/COLOR]

Frank Pollack is in his second year as the Texans assistant offensive line coach. Pollack will continue to work closely with offensive line coach John Benton to mold the Texans front five.

[url=http://www.houstontexans.com/team/coach.asp?coach_id=11]Coach - Houston Texans[/url]

-------------------------------------- or

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]Tom Clements
Quarterbacks [/COLOR] /+ (Assistant Offensive Coordinator ?)

Tom Clements, entering his 16th season in the coaching profession, is in his third year as Green Bay's quarterbacks coach.

Now in his 12th overall NFL season, Clements was named to his position Jan. 29, 2006, by Head Coach Mike McCarthy. Familiar with the role, Clements also served as quarterbacks coach for the Pittsburgh Steelers (2001-03), Kansas City Chiefs (2000) and New Orleans Saints (1997-99).

Last year, Clements oversaw a near-MVP season from Brett Favre in what turned out to be the quarterback's final year. Favre surpassed 4,000 yards passing for the fifth time and posted a career-best completion percentage of 66.5 and a QB rating of 95.7 that was his third-best in leading the Packers back to the playoffs.

[url=http://www.packers.com/team/coaches/clements_tom/]Packers.com » Team » Coaches » Tom Clements[/url]

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[COLOR="Olive"]Ty Knott
Offensive Quality Control [/COLOR]/ Offensive Assistant WR Coach?

Entering his seventh season in the NFL, Ty Knott begins his third with the Green Bay Packers as offensive quality control coach.
In his current role, Knott primarily assists wide receivers coach Jimmy Robinson. His duties include breaking down opponent game film, drawing playbooks and analyzing defensive tendencies.

[url=http://www.packers.com/team/coaches/knott_ty/]Packers.com » Team » Coaches » Ty Knott[/url]

:food-smil

Happy Holidays

Zorn and Martz run two different offenses terminolgy wise. Martz is not coming here. End of discussion.

why keep zorn if you bring in martz? this thread makes no sense.

Mike Martz's passing game is a direct decendent of the Don Coryell philosophy. Joe Gibbs, Norv Turner, and Al Saunders are also part of this coaching tree. If you change back to that philosophy, then you might as well get rid of Zorn, which would be a bad idea IMO. We need continuity, which means that we need to see whether Zorn/Campbell can make this WCO passing game work.

Is it time to close this thread yet?

MartZ? IN DC? I don't like that idea.
Mike Singletary, I like him!!

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Sorry, but Nartz might be a good thing here. THe WCO sucks balls and overall will be a failure once everything is said and done. THe WCO is passe, like the option is in college football now. Both systems were run by everyone in the 80's and 90's, but were figured out. THe WCO of Zorn needs some work or to be totally replaced. I think it doesn't play to JCs #1 strength, which is his cannon arm.