[QUOTE=Mattyk72]2 rings in his first 4 seasons is a hell of a start for Brady. Another ring and the Montana comparisons will really start flying. He's got alot of ball left to go.[/QUOTE]

sounds like in your opinion Brady was the reason for the Pats going and winning both super bowls, you don't think that the defense had anything to do with Brady getting 2 rings in his first 4 seasons?

BrudLee - "He's also on a team which gives him the chance to make Super Bowl winning kicks - something that 30 other kickers in the league each year would love to try."

You are right 30 other kickers in the league each year would love to try to kick the GAME WINNING field goal, but IMO there are only a handful of kickers that could do that with all the pressure and Vinatieri is IMO probably the best clutch kicker in the game. If he misses that GAME WINNING kick 2 years ago against the Raiders the Pats do not go on and win the super bowl.

[QUOTE=Redskins8588]BrudLee - "He's also on a team which gives him the chance to make Super Bowl winning kicks - something that 30 other kickers in the league each year would love to try."

You are right 30 other kickers in the league each year would love to try to kick the GAME WINNING field goal, but IMO there are only a handful of kickers that could do that with all the pressure and Vinatieri is IMO probably the best clutch kicker in the game. If he misses that GAME WINNING kick 2 years ago against the Raiders the Pats do not go on and win the super bowl.[/QUOTE]

No doubt 8588, he's in the top three or four in his profession. I just don't think he's the main reason the Pats won those championships, which some previous posts semmed to alude to. The defense, some clutch passing to smart receivers (get out of bounds!!!), and great special teams play were all part of the winning equation.

[QUOTE=Redskins8588]sounds like in your opinion Brady was the reason for the Pats going and winning both super bowls, you don't think that the defense had anything to do with Brady getting 2 rings in his first 4 seasons?

BrudLee - "He's also on a team which gives him the chance to make Super Bowl winning kicks - something that 30 other kickers in the league each year would love to try."

You are right 30 other kickers in the league each year would love to try to kick the GAME WINNING field goal, but IMO there are only a handful of kickers that could do that with all the pressure and Vinatieri is IMO probably the best clutch kicker in the game. If he misses that GAME WINNING kick 2 years ago against the Raiders the Pats do not go on and win the super bowl.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like you're not giving any credit at all to Brady. The first SB win I can see your point a bit more, but Brady has definitely proved that he's a big-time QB capable of taking his team all the way. I'm not saying Brady was the only reason for their two SB wins, but he was a big part of it.

Of course defense had something to do with it, but what team doesn't win the SB without a solid team effort across the board, defense, ST, etc.??

I give alot of credit to Vinatieri, he's definitely a clutch kicker, but I just have a hard time giving more credit for two championship seasons to a kicker over a QB.

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Sounds like you're not giving any credit at all to Brady. The first SB win I can see your point a bit more, but Brady has definitely proved that he's a big-time QB capable of taking his team all the way. I'm not saying Brady was the only reason for their two SB wins, but he was a big part of it.

Of course defense had something to do with it, but what team doesn't win the SB without a solid team effort across the board, defense, ST, etc.??

I give alot of credit to Vinatieri, he's definitely a clutch kicker, but I just have a hard time giving more credit for two championship seasons to a kicker over a QB.[/QUOTE]

I think a more telling sign about Brady is this, would new england have won those SB's with Bledsoe running the show? IMO no.

I love Lavar and his energy that he brings to the game. I would have to say so far he has not really proven anything yet. He doesnt even have a 100 tackle season. For those who are saying Urlacher is overrated are crazy. The man has had in all of his four seasons 100 plus tackles. If you compare the two players you tell me who has done more.

[QUOTE=skin4Life28]I love Lavar and his energy that he brings to the game. I would have to say so far he has not really proven anything yet. He doesnt even have a 100 tackle season. For those who are saying Urlacher is overrated are crazy. The man has had in all of his four seasons 100 plus tackles. If you compare the two players you tell me who has done more.[/QUOTE]

You can't compare an outside LB with a middle LB on stats alone. A MLB almost always has more tackles. Trotter had over 100 last year, and he's being cut.
That said, I agree that LaVar definitely has not lived up to his potential yet, but IMO he's not overrated. Neither is Samuels, he has just had two years of nagging injuries combined with an awful scheme.

I think both of them will really come in to their own with the new coaching staff....especially next year with a season under their belts. And that pretty much goes for the entire team.

The Pats dont win the Super Bowl with Bledsoe for one reason, Brady is a lot smarter. Drew has the cannon but Brady makes a lot of smart decisions and plays to his strenths.

This is going to make a lot of people mad but I think the most overrated Redskin is Fred Smoot. With Fred there always seems to be a lot of excuses, such as he gets the ball thrown his way more because peopel dont throw against Bailey. Well the fact is that he has had the ball thrown his way more, and he goes for the pick more than he goes for the smart play and gets burnt a lot. Im not doubting his ability to be a leader, hes definitly the voice of our defense right now. But in terms of his skills I think there are more reasons why he hasnt been great instaed of proff why he is. If we didnt get springs and if Smoot was playing the starting wide out I think we'd get burnt everyweek.

[QUOTE=BrudLee]No doubt 8588, he's in the top three or four in his profession. I just don't think he's the main reason the Pats won those championships, which some previous posts semmed to alude to. The defense, some clutch passing to smart receivers (get out of bounds!!!), and great special teams play were all part of the winning equation.[/QUOTE]

You are right it was a combination of special teams and haveing receivers that knew where they were on the field and able to get out of bounds. My point that I am trying to make here is that MVP stands for MOST VALUABLE PLAYER. As for Vinatieri being the main reason the Pats won those super bowls, I will agree that it was not just him. With that IMO Vinatieri should have still ben the MVP of that game, it all came down to his kick in that last seconds of the most important game of the season. If Brady threw the game winning touchdown then yes I could see how he would be considered the MVP.

Look at Ace Ventura: Pet Detective, look at what missing a GAME WINNING field goal can do to a kicker. :laughing-

lol. I love that movie.

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]I give alot of credit to Vinatieri, he's definitely a clutch kicker, but I just have a hard time giving more credit for two championship seasons to a kicker over a QB.[/QUOTE]

Why? Only because he is a kicker?

The kicking game can win you games, but it cant put you in position to win games. The Patriots didnt rely on Vinateri to win all their games, he came up big a few times but 9/10 it was Brady putting the game away with touchdowns. You win the close ones with those last minute field goals, but you need the QB to get you into range.

[QUOTE=Redskins8588]I have to disagree with you on this one. All Tom Brady did when he won those Super Bowls was what Trent Dilfer did when the Ravens won there super bowl. They both rode there Defense to victories and did not make stupid mistakes on offense.

Does that mean that Trent Dilfer is underrated also?[/QUOTE]

Did you watch either of the two Superbowls the Pats won?
In this last one Tom Brady was named Super Bowl MVP after throwing for 354 yards and three touchdowns. I guess you think the defense threw those passes? Great quarterbacks give their best performances in the biggest games, and that was exactly what Brady did. Twice. In Super Bowl XXXVI, he marched the Patriots to the winning points against the St. Louis Rams. In Super Bowl XXXVIII, he marched the Patriots to the winning points against the Carolina Panthers. Both times with just seconds left on the clock and he saved the DEFENSE after the defense gave up the lead really late in both games.
Brady's numbers alone in Superbowl XXXVIII : 32 completions in 48 attempts for 354 yards and three touchdowns. The 32 completions broke a Super Bowl record.

I think you are also unaware that in 2001, Brady took over for a terrible performing and injured QB Drew Bledsoe and the Pats were 1-3. His play is credited for turning the team around and they went 13-2 the rest of the year and won the Super Bowl. I should know, I lived in Boston from 2000-2004. The defense did not start playing well untill late in the 2001 season. By then Brady had already turned the team around.

Also if you remember correctly Bledsoe did come in and do what he had to do against the Steelers in Pittsburgh to put the Pats in the super bowl that year, and the media had a field day trying to start a QB controversy right before the super bowl.

[QUOTE=Redskins8588]Also if you remember correctly Bledsoe did come in and do what he had to do against the Steelers in Pittsburgh to put the Pats in the super bowl that year, and the media had a field day trying to start a QB controversy right before the super bowl.[/QUOTE]


Yeah, but what has Bledsoe done since? The Bills have drafted a replacement and asked Bledsoe to take a pay cut or get cut. It is little reported but, Pro Bowl Offensive Guard Rueben Brown was suspeneded and traded because he got into a huge fight with our new Defensive coach Williams over Bledsoe. Williams wanted Bledsoe to get benched. Which is what all of Buffalo wanted. Williams stuck by Bledsoe and failed. He got fired.

Well thats good for Bledsoe, I really do not think that he is overrated nor do I think that he is underrated.

Even, in some magical world, it was Bledsoe that led the Pats to the game winning field goal in the super bowls, I would still feel that the MVP should have ben the guy that got them the victory with one chance left in the game, who came in under all that pressure and has to perform only on 1 play.

[QUOTE=SKINSnCANES]This is going to make a lot of people mad but I think the most overrated Redskin is Fred Smoot. With Fred there always seems to be a lot of excuses, such as he gets the ball thrown his way more because peopel dont throw against Bailey. Well the fact is that he has had the ball thrown his way more, and he goes for the pick more than he goes for the smart play and gets burnt a lot. Im not doubting his ability to be a leader, hes definitly the voice of our defense right now. But in terms of his skills I think there are more reasons why he hasnt been great instaed of proff why he is. If we didnt get springs and if Smoot was playing the starting wide out I think we'd get burnt everyweek.[/QUOTE]

Smoot overrrated!! Well it's nice been having you here but you're banned! LOL. J/K

I understand what you're saying about Smoot. But I think if given the opportunity to go up against the top receiver each week he's matured these last three years where he could more than hold his own

[QUOTE=Redskins8588]Well thats good for Bledsoe, I really do not think that he is overrated nor do I think that he is underrated.

Even, in some magical world, it was Bledsoe that led the Pats to the game winning field goal in the super bowls, I would still feel that the MVP should have ben the guy that got them the victory with one chance left in the game, who came in under all that pressure and has to perform only on 1 play.[/QUOTE]

Bledsoe had his chance in a super bowl and lost big. Great QB's like Brady win the big game, twice. Bledsoe got crushed. Time will tell if Brady deserves to be included in the great QB list.

You are right Bledsoe did loose big, but I am not comparing Bledsoe to Brady or Brady to Bledsoe.

[QUOTE=Redskins8588]Well thats good for Bledsoe, I really do not think that he is overrated nor do I think that he is underrated.

Even, in some magical world, it was Bledsoe that led the Pats to the game winning field goal in the super bowls, I would still feel that the MVP should have ben the guy that got them the victory with one chance left in the game, who came in under all that pressure and has to perform only on 1 play.[/QUOTE]
I look at it as any game doesn't really come down to just one play. There is always a series of plays that lead up to that one play. There would be no game winning FG attempt if not for other circumstances that lead up to that moment.

Just because it's the last play doesn't mean it was the most important.

It kinda does mean it to be the most important play if you are trying to win the most important game of your career.

I picked LaVar for one simple reason. He would be an above average linebacker without his personallity. He wouldn't have near the recognition if it weren't for his antics. He's a good player, but it's a stretch to call him great. Let him play under Williams for a few years and I think he'll evolve into an amazing player.

Daseal you bring up a good point, which is that LaVar has played under so many different coaches and systems. He could shine if given some consistency

[QUOTE=smootsmack]Smoot overrrated!! Well it's nice been having you here but you're banned! LOL. J/K

I understand what you're saying about Smoot. But I think if given the opportunity to go up against the top receiver each week he's matured these last three years where he could more than hold his own[/QUOTE]


haha, I was starting to wonder if that comment got lost in the Brady shuffle and no one would notice. I hope Smoot does mature a lot this year, hes had two of the best mentors in the league, one of which is one of the best of all time. I think Smoots skils have never been the problem, just mentally making the smart choice instead of the high risk/big payoff choice. Hes still young and hopefully has a lot of upside still left in him.

[B][SIZE=4]Overrated Players[/SIZE][/B]

[B]Donovan McNabb[/B] :Flush: - his success is the product of great coaching. He always chokes in the big game. He is a playmaker, but only when nothing is on the line. They show replays of him doing great things when nothing is on the line. When he fails, it's the WRs fault, not his. It's the weather or fate or the fans or the staduim, never McNabb. This season we could say that with TO they can't blame the WRs anymore, but now that the defense is no longer star studded, they'll blame them, but never McNabb.

[B][SIZE=4]Overrated Coaches[/SIZE][/B]

[B]Mike Martz[/B] - How in the heck, with all that talent, can they have not won another superbowl? Who in their right mind doesn't give Marshall Faulk the ball 20+ times EVERY GAME!?!?!? While McNabb is a product of great coaching, Martz is the product of great players. Horrible playcaller.

[B]Phil Jackson[/B] - Look, all things considered, I could coach Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen to 6 championships. I could coach Kobe and Shaq to another half dozen too. He may well be a good coach, but we'll never know. Give him a team without the uber-athletes and then lets see what he can do.

[B][SIZE=4]Overrated Referees[/SIZE][/B]

[B]Ed Hochuli[/B] - His arms are the size of my waist and he looks more like a LB than a ref. But you need to know the back story. He's a lawyer and a father of 5 along with being the president of the NFL Referees Association. What does that have to do with anything? It's all part of a smoke and mirrors intemidation plot. Who wants to challenge a union leading, lawyer that has five predeccesors AND is built like a tank? Smoke and mirrors... smoke and mirrors.

[B][SIZE=4]Overrated Boobie[/SIZE][/B]

[B]Janet Jacksons left boobie[/B] - okay so we've all seen it and printed it and put a copy in our wallet in front of our insurance card but behind our wives picture... but if you look closely and examine thoroughly (which I do occasionally) it's a little droppy. Granted she's 38 (looking good for her age) but if you're gonna put it on international tv for the whole world to see, get to a doctor and firm those puppies up a little. I'm sure Michael could recommend a good one. Come to think of it, don't use Michaels surgeons. I would not call the surgeries he's had 'successful.'

[B][SIZE=4]Overrated Redskin[/SIZE][/B]

I'll probably be banned from these boards for saying this, but [B]Sean Taylor[/B] has to be one of the most overrated, unproven players I've seen since Ryan Leaf. I really, really hope he does well, but from the talk you would think he's the messiah of all that is football. Let me see him play a few games in regular season, then we can talk. If he does pan out as people are saying and hoping, I'll be attending the 1st church of Taylorism myself, but for now, i'll stay penticostal.

[QUOTE=kingerock][B][SIZE=4]Overrated Players[/SIZE][/B]

[B]Donovan McNabb[/B] :Flush: - his success is the product of great coaching. He always chokes in the big game. He is a playmaker, but only when nothing is on the line. They show replays of him doing great things when nothing is on the line. When he fails, it's the WRs fault, not his. It's the weather or fate or the fans or the staduim, never McNabb. This season we could say that with TO they can't blame the WRs anymore, but now that the defense is no longer star studded, they'll blame them, but never McNabb.

[B][SIZE=4]Overrated Coaches[/SIZE][/B]

[B]Mike Martz[/B] - How in the heck, with all that talent, can they have not won another superbowl? Who in their right mind doesn't give Marshall Faulk the ball 20+ times EVERY GAME!?!?!? While McNabb is a product of great coaching, Martz is the product of great players. Horrible playcaller.

[B]Phil Jackson[/B] - Look, all things considered, I could coach Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen to 6 championships. I could coach Kobe and Shaq to another half dozen too. He may well be a good coach, but we'll never know. Give him a team without the uber-athletes and then lets see what he can do.

[B][SIZE=4]Overrated Referees[/SIZE][/B]

[B]Ed Hochuli[/B] - His arms are the size of my waist and he looks more like a LB than a ref. But you need to know the back story. He's a lawyer and a father of 5 along with being the president of the NFL Referees Association. What does that have to do with anything? It's all part of a smoke and mirrors intemidation plot. Who wants to challenge a union leading, lawyer that has five predeccesors AND is built like a tank? Smoke and mirrors... smoke and mirrors.

[B][SIZE=4]Overrated Boobie[/SIZE][/B]

[B]Janet Jacksons left boobie[/B] - okay so we've all seen it and printed it and put a copy in our wallet in front of our insurance card but behind our wives picture... but if you look closely and examine thoroughly (which I do occasionally) it's a little droppy. Granted she's 38 (looking good for her age) but if you're gonna put it on international tv for the whole world to see, get to a doctor and firm those puppies up a little. I'm sure Michael could recommend a good one. Come to think of it, don't use Michaels surgeons. I would not call the surgeries he's had 'successful.'

[B][SIZE=4]Overrated Redskin[/SIZE][/B]

I'll probably be banned from these boards for saying this, but [B]Sean Taylor[/B] has to be one of the most overrated, unproven players I've seen since Ryan Leaf. I really, really hope he does well, but from the talk you would think he's the messiah of all that is football. Let me see him play a few games in regular season, then we can talk. If he does pan out as people are saying and hoping, I'll be attending the 1st church of Taylorism myself, but for now, i'll stay penticostal.[/QUOTE]

Well you can't over rate Taylor, if he hasen't proven other wise, he certainly isn't over rated coming out of college.

If you are going to say that Taylor is overrated then make the same argument for every player drafted. Of course no one that was drafted has had a chance to prove himself, but if youre going to base it on his college carreer then you have to agree that Taylor is a huge talent. Theres always a bunch of great players tha just end up in a system that doesnt fit them, but with our coaching staff im hoping thats not going to be the case for us.

I also have a hard time saying McNabb is overrated for youre reasons. I think he comes up with the big play, but is inconsistent the rest of the game. Converting 4th and 26 is a big play, and theres been plenty of times when he has scramled for a clutch first down. In general he doesnt get the ball in the endzone and does have great coaching. But hes proven himself to be a great player when the game is dependent on it.

Hey since somebody mentioned overrated coaches, how about Mike Shanahan of Denver? Did you know that he is winless in the playoffs since John Elway retired?

I would have said Mike Holmgren in Seattle, but he seems to be slowly, ... slowly, turning that ship around.

Sean Taylor overrated??? and the poor guy hasn't even played in a down in a pro game yet... let's give him a chance before we call him overrated. Hard to disagree with all the experts out there that Taylor was easily one of the best players in this year's draft.

Unless you have seen him play in a bunch of his college games, I don't know how you can make this assessment at this time. I've seen plenty of highlight films and he sure looks like the real deal to me.

I watched or was at everyone of his games. Have your doubts if you want but alteast in college he was the real deal. Whenever you have a defender that can outscore your offense in a game you know youve got somethign special.