yeah, he goes into hard ass zealot pretty fast sometimes, just like coultier or moore, sometimes its interesting to hear, but they all tend to totally ignore any arguement against their view (sometimes they downplay it, usually they don't even bother mentioning it though). That's what I don't like, only telling one side of an arguement, and then wondering how anyone could disagree since obviously there's no down sides or other views that could possibly be right :D.

Sorry to jump into the discussion so late. Currently out in Puerto Rico attending the First Annual Warpath Moderators Caribbean Convention. Wouldn't you know it I'm the only moderator out here. Thought I'd take a break from the beach to see what topics are being intelligently debated here.

This is a good one. Most of what I think has already been said by That Guy. Don't know who That Guy is but he's fast becoming one of my favorites. I don't care much for the way that Moore puts facts out there. The Redskins lost Champ Bailey,that's a fact. But if all you say is that and don't say they gained Clinton Portis then you're not really telling the whole story. That's how Moore operates. And then he tries to shock you with things that really are pretty common knowledge. We all know that while trying to prevent the spread of communism the United States helped certain Afghan guerrillas, one of whom it turned out was the Bin Laden we know today. And yes, we all know the Carlyle Group has ties to the Bush family and to the Bin Laden family. I have season tickets to the Wizards, the money I spend on the team helps pay Juan Dixon's salary. If Dixon goes out and runs over someone with his new Benz am I somehow responsible? It's a bit of a stretch with my analogy but I think you get my drift.

Anyway, if I were to make some suggestions here it would be to read "Disarming Iraq" by Hans Blix or "Plan of Attack" by Bob Woodward. And if you don't like to read go see the movie "Control Room" As for the news, listen to NPR. Fox News may be considered "centrist" by some, but I think it's totally classless how they took daily bombings in Iraq and turned them into musical montages.

One thing Moore does do that can't be debated are the interviews. The mother from Flint and the men picking up the dead after Afghan bombings really struck me. Some parts of it I laughed, other parts really made you take a step back, most people are scared to show the type of death and destruction that a war can cause.

I also loved when Moore went around asking Congressmen to sign their children up for the armed forces. That was absolutely hilarious.

I actually was suprised. I didn't see near the amount of personal attacks on Bush as I expected, and he ripped on the Democrats some, as usual. I thought the movie was excellent, and definitely worth a look no matter your political alignment. We took a republican with us and he didn't think it was too bad.

Huge fan of NPR here

SS, I guess you're the only mod at the Caribbean Convention because you didn't tell the rest of us! Maybe next time ;)

[QUOTE=Daseal]I also loved when Moore went around asking Congressmen to sign their children up for the armed forces. That was absolutely hilarious.[/QUOTE]

thats a load of bs though. what type of parent from any part of the wealth spectrum would actually ask or tell their child to join the military? Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought we got a choice of what we wish to do with our lives in this country. Those serving in the military of our country are there of their own free will with the knowledge that they may one day be in a position when their life is in danger. I don't understand how some join the military, but when it comes to actually serving their country in a situation they think puts them in a precarious position, they take up the call that they wish to be non-combatants or that their religious beliefs forbid them from doing their job. maybe I'm the only one who see's it this way.

The problem is and the point Moore was trying to make was that many people who enlist are from lower income families from rundown cities where the military is the only way out. We're sending our poor to fight our wars while the wealthy fatcats (and their children) sit home and give the orders.

maybe I've lived in different military areas where there aren't all of these members of the military coming from poor families cuz in each place I've lived, va beach/norfolk, san diego, iceland, and va beach again, there's a wide variety of economic backgrounds with most of the ones I've gotten to know coming from the middle class. and usually the military is the only way out for some people because they don't finish high school and limit themselves on career options.

plus how is it the politicians fault who joins the military?

[QUOTE=skinsfanthru&thru]maybe I've lived in different military areas where there aren't all of these members of the military coming from poor families cuz in each place I've lived, va beach/norfolk, san diego, iceland, and va beach again, there's a wide variety of economic backgrounds with most of the ones I've gotten to know coming from the middle class. and usually the military is the only way out for some people because they don't finish high school and limit themselves on career options.

plus how is it the politicians fault who joins the military?[/QUOTE]
Exactly! I work on a Marine Corps base and come into contact with soldiers every day. These guys absolutely love what they do. I don't see many of these 'poor' people in the military. Most of these poor people are sitting at home, watching TV collecting welfare. They don't have the drive to make a better life for themselves like the guys and gals in the military do.

[url]http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/index.html[/url]

A new documentry coming out, which I also plan on seeing. Could be interesting.

[QUOTE=cpayne5]Exactly! I work on a Marine Corps base and come into contact with soldiers every day. These guys absolutely love what they do. I don't see many of these 'poor' people in the military. Most of these poor people are sitting at home, watching TV collecting welfare. They don't have the drive to make a better life for themselves like the guys and gals in the military do.[/QUOTE]Most of these poor people are sitting at home, watching TV collecting welfare?

There's an ignorant generalization if I ever saw one. I guess I'll just leave it at that.

Anyway, here's an interesting article I found on the subject

[url="http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/459/459_05_PoorToWar.shtml"]http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/459/459_05_PoorToWar.shtml[/url]

[QUOTE=Daseal][url="http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/index.html"]http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/index.html[/url]

A new documentry coming out, which I also plan on seeing. Could be interesting.[/QUOTE]
Why is it when someone questions the gov't and the people that run it, they are labled as 'haters'?? Like when the war first started and all the celebs and musicians were speaking out, they were labeled Anti-American. :vomit-smi

Isn't that what this country is all about and the basis for which it was founded? The ability to speak out, speak your mind and most of all, question our government and leaders. After all, they do work for ALL of us don't they? Didn't we elect our President? (oh that's right, we didn't, LOL)

To some it's either you're with us or you're against us, no inbetween.

It's just ridiculous.

In the market place of ideas, it's buyer beware. If you want a society with free speech, especially free political speech, you're going to get this sort of stuff, from all sides. The correct reaction to all this stuff should be to dig deeper and see what's really going on, as best we can given that everyone, and I mean everyone, has got an agendga. (except me of course :biggthump )

The best way to combat Moore's movie (if you're against it) is with a rival movie. (Now if only someone would make "Mel Gibson Hates the Jews." JUST KIDDING!!! JUST KIDDING!!! NO OFFENSE INTENDED!!! TO ANYONE!!!!)

The best way to combat lies in a free society is by telling the truth, only louder and with better special effects (and with foxy ladies with big hooters). (Please substitute apporpriate image for those of different gender, sex, orientation, creed, etc., but please no ladies with weenies, for Sammy Fan's sake.)

Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried. -Winston Churchill

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Why is it when someone questions the gov't and the people that run it, they are labled as 'haters'?? Like when the war first started and all the celebs and musicians were speaking out, they were labeled Anti-American. :vomit-smi

Isn't that what this country is all about and the basis for which it was founded? The ability to speak out, speak your mind and most of all, question our government and leaders. After all, they do work for ALL of us don't they? Didn't we elect our President? (oh that's right, we didn't, LOL)

To some it's either you're with us or you're against us, no inbetween.

It's just ridiculous.[/QUOTE]


its not a matter of speaking out, its a matter of telling the whole story. if your gonna talk about a subject you can't just give one side of the story and leave out the details that contradict what your telling people. its not like its as clear as black and white as too who's right and who's wrong in every situation or belief. Moore makes it seem if you believe even just one thing about Bush and his administration that isn't what he believes, then your siding with the devil or your against your country. If this new documentary is completely one sided in its version of the story than it should be bashed just as hard as anything moore does.
and I think the thing that gets people pissed off about celebrities talking about politics and society is that they can talk all they want about how horrible the world is and our part in it and then turn around and go live in their multi-million dollar homes. they then turn around and complain they are only getting 10 million for a role that they think should be paying them 15 million. if they want to complain so much they need to back up their talk and help, but far too few help out as much as they should.

Ray Bradbury rips Michael Moore
 

[url]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38776[/url]

Ray Bradbury rips Michael Moore

"Michael Moore is a screwed a--hole, that is what I think about that case," Bradbury said according to an English translation of the story. "He stole my title and changed the numbers without ever asking me for permission."


lol

[QUOTE]Don't know who That Guy is but...[/QUOTE] I'm... you know... I'm That Guy... I thought you knew that :D

again, YOU CANNOT SIGN OTHERS UP FOR MILITARY SERVICE... some congressmen said they DID have sons and nephews in iraq, moore left those out though, he left a lot of things out ;) that doesn't make it a lie, but its not representative of the whole truth, so its misleading at best.

I thought I already posted that link to micheal moore hates america... its supposed to be more a review of his methods and a more objective view of current american sentiments etc... though until its done, I can't really comment on its contents too much.

and thanks for the compliment smoot :)

I read some of that socialist news article, and it assumes a lot of things that aren't really right/important/relevant... I DO think the poor represent a greater presence on the battlefield, but i think thats always been true (since warrior-kings became passe and politicians emerged). Our army is 100% volunteer (so no one is forcing anyone into it), but that's really an entirely different arguement, so we can toss ideas about that around in another thread if anyone really wants to.

that ray bradbury link is really interesting, he sounds super-pissed off... but I completely understand why.

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]There's an ignorant generalization if I ever saw one. I guess I'll just leave it at that.[/QUOTE]

Kind of like how you said "We're sending our poor to fight our wars while the wealthy fatcats (and their children) sit home and give the orders.", wouldn't you say?

How is it that you can rip "wealthy fatcats", but then take offense for what I said about Americans who [I]choose[/I] to collect welfare?

ruh-roh, rep/dem hot buttons have been pressed, please clear the area ;)

[QUOTE=Daseal][url]http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/index.html[/url]

A new documentry coming out, which I also plan on seeing. Could be interesting.[/QUOTE]
The trailers certainly are interesting.

lol

"I won't be in anyone's movie but my own." - M. Moore

He's a pathetic PUD.

What goes around, comes around.

peace
mike

[QUOTE=Sammy Baugh Fan]lol

"I won't be in anyone's movie but my own." - M. Moore

He's a pathetic PUD.

What goes around, comes around.

peace
mike[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and then they listed the 10 or so movies that he had been in that he didn't direct.

ALERT!!!!
Michael Moore's NUMBER 1 Supporter was on TV this morning!

[url]http://www.nagshead.net/michaelmooresupporter.jpg[/url]

Bwhahaha!

Trudat boo!

hey all, I was told about a book they were talking about on cnn yesterday thats being released by the same publisher who released the encyclopedia sized bill clinton memoires. The new book being released is abouting killing President Bush and even how to do it. I think this is probably one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard about. I don't care if it's "political satire" as they r trying to say it is, because u know there r people in the extreme who will take what the book says to heart and might possibly try to do as the book says. I mean what the hell is wrong with our country when we are publishing books about why and how to kill individual people. This is just as bad as that assasin handbook that was in the news a few years ago except with one extremely high level target.

theres lots of idiots doing stupid shit, i'd be kinda surprised if a major publisher would print it, but i've heard of stranger things...

[QUOTE=Daseal]Don't forget the US mass grave newsweek reported where we ship "prisoner" (mostly locals that haven't done anything wrong) in airtight crates and there are always a few the suffocate each trip.

Also, there were plenty of connections between the Bush's and Osama in the mid 90's. And the US even trained and supplied Osama even earlier than that. As long as he's killing Russians, we're down with terrorists, right?

The reason he'd sue Michael Moore is this is a huge movie, if he could discredit it they would do it in a second.[/QUOTE]

Really? So after Russia tore down the wall, and took a step toward's democracy, the Bush's decieded to start funding Bin Laden, to start terrorising Russia, starting in the mid 90's? When Clinton was in office. Do you have any fact's to back this up?

Im with SFTT. I like to see all point's of view to make an educated decision, but having to put money into the pocket of a man who hates america, ain't gonna happen!

:biggthump :thumb: [QUOTE=Sammy Baugh Fan]ALERT!!!!
Michael Moore's NUMBER 1 Supporter was on TV this morning!

[url]http://www.nagshead.net/michaelmooresupporter.jpg[/url]

Bwhahaha!

Trudat boo![/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]I find it kinda funny how quickly we turned our attention away from Bin Laden and instead went after Saddam, despite the fact we have never found any weapons of mass destruction.

The truth is we'll never find Bin Laden, why? Because we're not trying to.

So where are these weapons that Saddam had anyway? Weren't they a huge reason we went in there in the first place? So now that we can't find them (because they didn't have any to start with) we instead hear the administration write it off with excuses, 'well, the world is a safer place now that Saddam is out'. Is it really though?? Anti-american sentiment is more heated than ever. The middle east is still a war zone, americans are still being killed, beheaded, etc. 911 was this administrations' perfect excuse to invade Iraq so baby bush could seek revenge for his daddy. He wanted to go in there before 911, so this was a convenient reason to justify it.

Bush is dragging the U.S. down the crapper. I really don't understand people that can stand by and support this buffoon.

Did anyone catch it when Bush totally butchered trying to pronounce 'Abu Ghraib'??

Just embarrassing, man. Totally embarrassing that this is the leader of the free world.[/QUOTE]

We are not safer with Sadam out of power? How do you no? What did we do to Bin Laden to force him to take down the WTC's? The fact is we have found chemical weapon's, although not in mass quantity, you don't think he shipped out his mobile weopon's development program's into neighboring countries? If he had nothing, why did he deny the inspector's access during the Clinton regime? If he had nothing to hide he could have maintained power over his country, so he gave it all up over nothing? He refused access because there was nothing there? The fact is we will alway's have enemies, we just eliminated one very dangerous one.

If you believe that Sadam having been left to himself, wouldn't develope some kind of WOMD to detonate on american soil, if givin the opportunity, your only fooling yourself.

The fact is, we were attacked 2 times under Clinton, once on our soil, and he didn't do a thing, and no sooner does he leave office we get hit with 9/11, it seem's doing nothing is more harmful to America, then meeting the enemy head on. At last check we haven't been attacked since 9/11, but Bush isn't getting the job done? I say no new's is good new's!

I sure hope Gibb's doesn't adhere to that kind of thinking during away games, we would't want to make the home crowd angry by beating them, would we?

btw, in case you don't know, there were no useable water trucks in Iraq after the invasion. Might not mean much to you, but saddam had russian generals as consultants, and they know that you can ship anything in a water truck, flush it out with jet fuel, and it'll pass american chemical sensors... and guess why the water trucks couldn't be used?

...they were contaminated with jet fuel.

[url]http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm[/url]

Lengthy, but well documented, article on Michael Moore's slight of hand.

Whatever the facts, Moore's '9/11' should worry GOP

[url]http://www.freep.com/news/politics/polcol6_20040706.htm[/url]

Cpayne, that was a great article. Thanks!

I was reading the article that cpayne posted until I came across this part:

"Fahrenheit 9/11 begins on election night 2000. We are first shown the Al Gore rocking on stage with famous musicians and a high-spirited crowd. The conspicuous sign on stage reads “Florida Victory.” Moore creates the impression that Gore was celebrating his victory in Florida."

Ummm, hello, that was meant to be a fictitious scene. I thought that was pretty clear.

Well I think that's the problem. This is supposedly a documentary, which means a factual film. Documentaries aren't supposed to include fictitious scenes and satirical voice-overs.

I guess if one doesn't understand Moore's humor then I guess an opening scene like that could be 'confusing'.

Moore isn't trying to deceive anyone with that opening scene, most people laughed at the sight of Gore celebrating his "Florida victory". Moore has always mixed humor and satire in with his work. Are humor and satire not allowed in documentaries either? So let's call it a film or movie then, who cares what it's classifed as.

Ok, so you don't like the first point. Read the others and tell us what you think of those.

'meh'

j/k

;)

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]'meh'

j/k

;)[/QUOTE]
lol

I wish the season would start so we can stop talking about this crap.

^5

peace
mike
<><

[QUOTE=cpayne5]lol

I wish the season would start so we can stop talking about this crap.[/QUOTE]


amen