Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

The right always says "..they hate our freedoms, that's why they want to kill us" yet when it comes to issues like abortion or issues they don't agree with freedom is metaphiscal nonsense.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=saden1;314704]The right always says "..they hate our freedoms, that's why they want to kill us" yet when it comes to issues like abortion or issues they don't agree with freedom is metaphiscal nonsense.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. But, I do actually think that Bin Laden-types, as opposed to your run-of-the-mill Iraqi insurgents, hate America for its "freedoms." Bin Laden and others of his ilk do despise our promiscuity, indulgence in drink and drugs, freedom of religion, separation of church and state, etc.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[quote=saden1;314704]The right always says "..they hate our freedoms, that's why they want to kill us" yet when it comes to issues like abortion or issues they don't agree with freedom is metaphiscal nonsense.[/quote]

Yeah but the main reason the right is so appalled by abortion is because it's giving people the freedom to choose to deny someone a life.

It's a little different than freedom of speech, freedom to practice religion, etc.

It's not the fact that abortion is a freedom that bothers the right, it's the fact that they feel it's killing someone. And I tend to agree. Wouldn't it be some bullshit if your mom decided she would rather just not have you, and you were never here?

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[quote=Daseal;314491]My problem with abortion is overpopulation is already a huge problem in not only this country but around the globe. I often see someone staunchly against abortion, but also tells someone to stop having kids and get off welfare. The two go hand in hand. Sometimes accidents happen, and I'm not suggesting abortion be used as some sort of birth control, but we need to find a way to start cutting population around the globe. The rate at which we're using natural resources is alarming.[/quote]

Global warming could help here. The problem kind of solves itself if you think about it. Humans cause warming, warming kills humans. It's the circle of life da, da, da, da, da, da.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

And if you don't want to have a baby, or don't feel you are ready for the responsibility, there are tons of American families out there who can't biologically have children and would love to adopt your child. Why can't you just suck it up, give birth to the baby, and give it up for adoption?

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

People love to ask the question "what gives the government the right to tell women what to do with their body?"

What about the other question? What gives the woman the right to deny that person an opportunity at life; an opportunity to grow up happy, healthy, and free?

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;314711]Yeah but the main reason the right is so appalled by abortion is because it's giving people the freedom to choose to deny someone a life.

It's a little different than freedom of speech, freedom to practice religion, etc.

It's not the fact that abortion is a freedom that bothers the right, it's the fact that they feel it's killing someone. And I tend to agree. Wouldn't it be some bullshit if your mom decided she would rather just not have you, and you were never here?[/QUOTE]

The right also defines a fertilized egg as a child (the moment of conception). The real issue here is that the right is interjecting their religious beliefs to limit my freedom.

As for my mother not aborting me, well, she had a miscarriage prior to having. I could have easily been that embryo but I wasn't. What matters is that I am here, and those that aren't here aren't. I mean, who left the right in change of making sure every embryo makes it through 9 months of gestation?

p.s. I'm actually pretty conservative when it comes to abortion. Liberty and freedom, however, come before my own personal views on the issue.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;314714]People love to ask the question "what gives the government the right to tell women what to do with their body?"

What about the other question? What gives the woman the right to deny that person an opportunity at life; an opportunity to grow up happy, healthy, and free?[/QUOTE]

Just look around and see if you can find happy children in the foster care system. The world is brutal man.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=saden1;314722]Just look around and see if you can find happy children in the foster care system. The world is brutal man.[/QUOTE]

I'm looking into adopting a child and I'm open to adopting a kid of any race, but baby white kids are in pretty high demand.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;314743]I'm looking into adopting a child and I'm open to adopting a kid of any race, but [B]baby white kids are in pretty high demand.[/B][/quote]

haha, ok but I thought that post was hilarious.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=hooskins;314744]haha, ok but I thought that post was hilarious.[/QUOTE]

May I rephrase? "White babies are in high demand." I like Saden, but I would never call him baby. ;)

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

well i think on the war in iraqu we need to stop worrying about the poor people on there streets when we got people on the streets of America poor. i think we should take care of ours first. and then worry about the poor people in iraqu:spank:

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=Newjerseyredskinfan14;314747]well i think on the war in iraqu we need to stop worrying about the poor people on there streets when we go people on the streets of America poor. i think we should take care of ours first. and then worry about the poor people in iraqu:spank:[/QUOTE]

Huh? I think I understand what you are saying, but I'm not quite sure.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

i think all of are guna take a long ass time to fix

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;314748]Huh? I think I understand what you are saying, but I'm not quite sure.[/QUOTE]

well dont you think we are more inportant as citizens then them.. ya know us before them

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;314712]Global warming could help here. The problem kind of solves itself if you think about it. Humans cause warming, warming kills humans. It's the circle of life da, da, da, da, da, da.[/QUOTE]

Congratulations Chip. You can change your sig now

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;314743]I'm looking into adopting a child and I'm open to adopting a kid of any race, but baby white kids are in pretty high demand.[/QUOTE]

This is something that has been [URL="http://www.redskinswarpath.com/redskins-warpath-parking-lot/16454-adoption-1.html"]discussed[/URL] in the [URL="http://www.redskinswarpath.com/redskins-warpath-parking-lot/16454-adoption-2.html#post263190"]past[/URL].

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[quote=saden1;314722]Just look around and see if you can find happy children in the foster care system. The world is brutal man.[/quote]

I was waiting for a response like this...

You're probably right in saying that if kids enter the foster system they're going to have unhappy childhoods, that's just how the odds break down. But not all kids grow up unhappy in those situations, there are success stories. So you're basically going to rob all of those kids of the [I]chance[/I] of having a happy life?

Sounds like you're robbing them of the pursuit of happiness to me.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[quote=saden1;314720]The right also defines a fertilized egg as a child (the moment of conception). The real issue here is that the right is interjecting their religious beliefs to limit my freedom.

As for my mother not aborting me, well, she had a miscarriage prior to having. I could have easily been that embryo but I wasn't. What matters is that I am here, and those that aren't here aren't. I mean, who left the right in change of making sure every embryo makes it through 9 months of gestation?

p.s. I'm actually pretty conservative when it comes to abortion. Liberty and freedom, however, come before my own personal views on the issue.[/quote]

First, there certainly is a religious aspect, no doubt. And the right hides behind the Bible all the time, but it's more than that. It's moral, not just religious.

All humans began as fertilized eggs. The moral outrage does not stem from the fact that you're [I]killing[/I] something (however you define that something, some would define that something as a fertilized egg as a child, others wouldn't). The moral outrage stems from the fact that you're never even giving this living thing a chance to know love, happiness, compassion, and freedom. Abortion robs "fertilized eggs" of the [I]chance[/I] to know life. This living organism inside the womb would be born, and in all likelihood would grow up happy, were it not for abortion. Just think of what that person could become... a firefighter, a nurse, a teacher, the next President of the USA, a Redskins fan...

How can robbing them of that opportunity sit well with you? Religion enters the equation, but it goes well beyond that.

As for your mother's miscarriage, that sucks man. Ask her how she felt when that happened to her. Chances are she was very saddened, and experienced a sense of loss. Why? Because she was robbed of the opportunity to get to know THAT child, and that child never got the chance to know the love of it's mother. After a miscarriage, parents don't just shrug their shoulders and say "oh well, we'll just make another one." It's sad because of the opportunities lost for the life that could have been.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

And I hear you say that liberty and freedom come before your own personal conservative beliefs on the issue. I agree that freedom should be at the very core of every law we make in the United States.

But the question is which freedom supercedes the other here? Which is more important, the mother's freedom to do what she pleases with her body, or the "fertilized egg's" freedom to follow nature's course and be born into the world to pusue life and all its joys without being stopped?

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

Schneed: You going to pay extra taxes to foot the bill for that uninsured teenage mother to have the surgery? More people only adds to poverty in this country. I'd rather see more kids who can live in sanitary conditions, get an education, and not spend their time running the streets then tons of children everywhere adding to poverty and crime levels.

If you say you'll accept paying taxes to cover the millions of abortions per year, that's one thing. If not, I don't see where you can talk.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

Schneed's hitting the right notes for me.

My problem is that I cannot morally distinguish when a fertilized egg becomes a human. Where is that line? Why does that line exist? It would seem to me that any type of defined developmental line of human existence would be completely arbitrary and therefore we as humans shouldn't be making it. The easiest and most logical place to define life as starting is at conception. That is when two things that are nothing in the world, an egg and a sperm, come together to create something that IS something in the world. An organism that can grow to think, breath, love, hate, whatever...

And to me, taking from that organism, that life, the opportunity to exist and flourish is unconscionably wrong.

What drives me nuts about the right is the belief by many that abortion is wrong while supporting the death penalty. To me there is no difference. Humans are choosing to take a life and they have no right to. Humans should not be taking the lives of other humans for any reason.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

If this is inflammatory I apologize in adavance. It is not meant to attack. It may be insulting but I really think it needs to be said.

If anyone's support for the right of women to have abortions centers around some type of economic reason or any other practical reasoning like poverty levels and so forth then I think you need to really do some soul searching. It is no different than saying, "Well we have too many miserable kids in foster care so let's just put them out of their misery." or "We have too many people already. Might as well put a quota on couples and then kill of any extra kids they have".

I know that is not what anyone is meaning to to say but it IS what you are basically saying. You are saying that the needs of our econmoy and community are greater than one person's right to live and breathe. You are saying that it is better to deny someone's life rather than let them grow up in poverty. Why do you get to decide that? If that is the way you feel then well... I don't know. But if you feel like people have the right to live and have a chance then you should really re-evaluate your thoughts as to why you support abortion. A woman's right to her body is a much better argument to me. And one hard to argue against.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[quote=Daseal;314790]Schneed: You going to pay extra taxes to foot the bill for that uninsured teenage mother to have the surgery? More people only adds to poverty in this country. I'd rather see more kids who can live in sanitary conditions, get an education, and not spend their time running the streets then tons of children everywhere adding to poverty and crime levels.

If you say you'll accept paying taxes to cover the millions of abortions per year, that's one thing. If not, I don't see where you can talk.[/quote]

Your attitude is part of the problem, you're assuming that the babies that would be born would be complete drains on society. Many would be, because the abortion rate in impoverished areas is high and many would grow up with poor parental influence. But many others could make something of themselves. You seem to be writing off anyone from the inner city impoverished areas as having any kind of chance in life. You're way out of line to assume that they can't make something of themselves.

I'd be perfectly fine seeing 99 kids become complete dregs on society if it meant that one could grow up and become a contributing member. Robbing them of the chance to become something is wrong, and precludes them to a life of failure.

And yes, I'd gladly support the "dregs" with increased welfare taxes. Some issues are more important than money, and denying someone the right to a happy life is more important than an extra hundred or two bucks in my pocket each year.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[quote=FRPLG;314795]If this is inflammatory I apologize in adavance. It is not meant to attack. It may be insulting but I really think it needs to be said.

If anyone's support for the right of women to have abortions centers around some type of economic reason or any other practical reasoning like poverty levels and so forth then I think you need to really do some soul searching. It is no different than saying, "Well we have too many miserable kids in foster care so let's just put them out of their misery." or "We have too many people already. Might as well put a quota on couples and then kill of any extra kids they have".

I know that is not what anyone is meaning to to say but it IS what you are basically saying. You are saying that the needs of our econmoy and community are greater than one person's right to live and breathe. You are saying that it is better to deny someone's life rather than let them grow up in poverty. Why do you get to decide that? If that is the way you feel then well... I don't know. But if you feel like people have the right to live and have a chance then you should really re-evaluate your thoughts as to why you support abortion. A woman's right to her body is a much better argument to me. And one hard to argue against.[/quote]

I'm 100% behind you, I'm a little appalled by Daseal's assertion.

Though I gotta say, I'll gladly argue against the woman's right to her body argument.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

Because Daseal, it certainly sounds like you're making judgments on who deserves to live and who doesn't.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

Schneed, it's interesting that you spoke about how being a parent has influenced your views on abortion, but what about education?

To me, that's a huge issue. And all I have is a 9 month old niece. But with it being a more competitive marketplace globally I want her to be in the best position to succeed.

I'm curious to know how parents here feel about education as an issue.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;314799]Because Daseal, it certainly sounds like you're making judgments on who deserves to live and who doesn't.[/QUOTE]

Only the mods decide that around here.

Daseal, you get 3 months. Use that time to read "Are You There God? It's Me Margaret"

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;314798]Though I gotta say, I'll gladly argue against the woman's right to her body argument.[/QUOTE]

Oh I would too but you have to admit that that argument is a much stronger one and requires a lot more subjectivness than obectiveness. To me a person has a right to a life of freedom. That includes freedom from being killed. At the same time a pregnant woman has the same right to freedom. So here there has to be a judgement based decision. I fall on the side of the baby's life but can see much more clearly the opposing arguments.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

Not to change the subject, but I will argue in favor of capital punishment. In that case, humans are killing someone (a criminal) who made a conscious choice to rob another person of their rights to live. I support capital punishment for anyone who committs murder intentionally, that's the only crime. It's just. The criminal made a [B]conscious choice [/B]to take away another person's freedom to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. He deserves his fate, there's no moral conundrum there.

With abortion, we're robbing that baby of the freedom to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness [B]before that person is even able to exercise one choice[/B].

As humans, we have an obligation to protect life. If someone chooses to consciously and knowingly take away someone else's freedom to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, then they have thereby waived their right to the very same. They deserve their fate.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;314801]Schneed, it's interesting that you spoke about how being a parent has influenced your views on abortion, but what about education?

To me, that's a huge issue. And all I have is a 9 month old niece. But with it being a more competitive marketplace globally I want her to be in the best position to succeed.

I'm curious to know how parents here feel about education as an issue.[/QUOTE]

To me education is a definitely an issue but mostly as an economic one. Economic from the stand point of how much of my money is being wasted on our crappy system. This is because I know that my child's ultimate education is going to be my responsibilty. I know she will be educated well because I will personally ensure it. I don't much worry about the state of our education system as it pertains to my daughter for that reason.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;314804]Not to change the subject, but I will argue in favor of capital punishment. In that case, humans are killing someone (a criminal) who made a conscious choice to rob another person of their rights to live. I support capital punishment for anyone who committs murder intentionally, that's the only crime. It's just. The criminal made a [B]conscious choice [/B]to take away another person's freedom to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. He deserves his fate, there's no moral conundrum there.

With abortion, we're robbing that baby of the freedom to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness [B]before that person is even able to exercise one choice[/B].

As humans, we have an obligation to protect life. If someone chooses to consciously and knowingly take away someone else's freedom to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, then they have thereby waived their right to the very same. They deserve their fate.[/QUOTE]
I would totally diagree that someone can waive their right to protection from being killed but this is why I try to avoid discussing these issues in public(irony noted). No one here is going to change their opinions on this stuff no matter what. And I am certainly not going to put much of my time into arguing for the rights of anyone who has killed someone else.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[quote=SmootSmack;314801]Schneed, it's interesting that you spoke about how being a parent has influenced your views on abortion, but what about education?

To me, that's a huge issue. And all I have is a 9 month old niece. But with it being a more competitive marketplace globally I want her to be in the best position to succeed.

I'm curious to know how parents here feel about education as an issue.[/quote]

Education is an issue for sure, but it's not on my voting radar because I feel good about my ability to provide a first rate education for my daughter personally. I'm lucky enough to live in a township with one of the best public school systems in Pennsylvania. And there aren't any townships nearby scoring low enough on the standardized tests to have their kids flooding my school based on the No Child Left Behind laws. So I feel insulated from the problems surrounding the issue, personally.

Rising college costs are a problem, though. I'd like to see something done about that, but there are no candidates offering any solutions, and I can't for the life of me imagine what can be done about it. Colleges are in major competition with one another to attract students, so they build facilities and expand, and that costs a buttload.

By the way, I can't help but notice the change of subject. Just so it's clear, I was a little put off by Daseal's attitude but I ain't got no hate. I still love me some puppy-kicker!

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

By the way, kick ass thread we have going on here. I heart you guys and your ability to have mature discussions.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;314807]Education is an issue for sure, but it's not on my voting radar because I feel good about my ability to provide a first rate education for my daughter personally. I'm lucky enough to live in a township with one of the best public school systems in Pennsylvania. And there aren't any townships nearby scoring low enough on the standardized tests to have their kids flooding my school based on the No Child Left Behind laws. So I feel insulated from the problems surrounding the issue, personally.

Rising college costs are a problem, though. I'd like to see something done about that, but there are no candidates offering any solutions, and I can't for the life of me imagine what can be done about it. Colleges are in major competition with one another to attract students, so they build facilities and expand, and that costs a buttload.

By the way, I can't help but notice the change of subject. Just so it's clear, I was a little put off by Daseal's attitude but I ain't got no hate. I still love me some puppy-kicker![/QUOTE]

Change of subject was not intentional. I had been meaning to ask about education for a while.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;314808]By the way, kick ass thread we have going on here. I heart you guys and your ability to have mature discussions.[/QUOTE]

I had been meaning to talk about this too.

On behalf of all the mods, I want to commend the entire board for allowing us to bring back political discussion and vehemently disagree in a civilized manner.

I hate to say that all the problems we had in the past with political talk was because of just one member, but maybe it was.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[quote=SmootSmack;314812]I had been meaning to talk about this too.

On behalf of all the mods, I want to commend the entire board for allowing us to bring back political discussion and vehemently disagree in a civilized manner.

I hate to say that all the problems we had in the past with political talk was because of just one member, but maybe it was.[/quote]

The Jinx. Now Lehman hits it in the water.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;314786]First, there certainly is a religious aspect, no doubt. And the right hides behind the Bible all the time, but it's more than that. It's moral, not just religious.

All humans began as fertilized eggs. The moral outrage does not stem from the fact that you're [I]killing[/I] something (however you define that something, some would define that something as a fertilized egg as a child, others wouldn't). The moral outrage stems from the fact that you're never even giving this living thing a chance to know love, happiness, compassion, and freedom. Abortion robs "fertilized eggs" of the [I]chance[/I] to know life. This living organism inside the womb would be born, and in all likelihood would grow up happy, were it not for abortion. Just think of what that person could become... a firefighter, a nurse, a teacher, the next President of the USA, a Redskins fan...

How can robbing them of that opportunity sit well with you? Religion enters the equation, but it goes well beyond that.

As for your mother's miscarriage, that sucks man. Ask her how she felt when that happened to her. Chances are she was very saddened, and experienced a sense of loss. Why? Because she was robbed of the opportunity to get to know THAT child, and that child never got the chance to know the love of it's mother. After a miscarriage, parents don't just shrug their shoulders and say "oh well, we'll just make another one." It's sad because of the opportunities lost for the life that could have been.[/QUOTE]

I'm not robbing anybody of anything. It's the parent who is making the decision to have an abortion that bares the responsibility. It sounds corny but it's their body, their embryo, all theirs until the embryo is actually a child (formed). Ideally you would want them to have the child, love it and care for it but that's not how the real works works. You make it sound like abortion is an easy decision that people make on a whim. It's a tough decision and when someone makes that decision to have an abortion they really do have a reason they find valid to have an abortion. Banning abortion is definitely not the answer though. I mean, if abortion is baned, it will still continue underground like the good old days.

My mother was upset about the miscarriage because she really wanted to have a child. On the flip side, I know people who have had a miscarriage that were glad about it because they were contemplating a abortion.

On a side note, the Darwinian in me thinks abortion is an effective social force, one which helps control population growth. All other animals on the planet have predators except humans. We are at the top of the food chain and if we don't control our population we're pretty much screwed down the line. Take China for example, that's one massive population. If abortion was banned there and couples were not limited to 1 child there wouldn't be enough resource to feed, cloths, and support the population. Something that should be avoided at all cost IMO.

This reminds me of how a lot people complain about illegal immigration. Americans wants a piece of the pie and they would rather not share it with the Mexicans. No one wants to fight 1000 people over a measly job. No one wants to drive their kid 10 miles away because their local school is crowded. The whole issue of immigration is about over population and the distribution of resources amongst many people.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;314812]On behalf of all the mods, I want to commend the entire board for allowing us to bring back political discussion and vehemently disagree in a civilized manner.

I hate to say that all the problems we had in the past with political talk was because of just one member, but maybe it was.[/QUOTE]

I second that. I love discussing this kind of stuff in a civil manner with smart people like Smootsmack, Saden, Schneed, Daseal, Hog, and the list goes on and on.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;314789]And I hear you say that liberty and freedom come before your own personal conservative beliefs on the issue. I agree that freedom should be at the very core of every law we make in the United States.

But the question is which freedom supersedes the other here? Which is more important, the mother's freedom to do what she pleases with her body, or the "fertilized egg's" freedom to follow nature's course and be born into the world to pusue life and all its joys without being stopped?[/QUOTE]

The freedom of the mother supersedes that of the embryo. I would have to violate her rights in order to protect the embryo.

As for your future value argument, I don't buy it. You could argue the world would have been better of if Hitler was aborted.