Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[quote=mheisig;370684]Sorry, but this whole debate seems kind of pointless. At this point we're not evaluating the RB on his individual merits because the line is completely debilitated. With a very, very few exceptions a RB is probably only going to be as good as his offensive line. Same goes for about 99% of QBs.[/quote]

The problem with this argument is now you're lowering the bar for CP so he can trip over it like "99%" of NFL RB's. We didn't trade the best corner in pro football to the Broncos for some guy who's just as good as any other average NFL back. At the time, he was being compared to guys like LT in terms of franchise career potential.

I mean, the fact that anybody is even looking in Ladell Betts' direction should say something loud and clear about how healthy and effective Portis has been in the last 2 years.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

Betts hasn't done much of anything this year to warrant more carries. I just find it curious that people want to bench a guy averaging 3.9 yards per carry for a guy averaging 2.9. The fact that both guys are struggling so much to me points to a bigger issue. Mainly the injuries and inconsistency along the OL.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[quote=Mattyk72;370740]Betts hasn't done much of anything this year to warrant more carries. I just find it curious that people want to bench a guy averaging 3.9 yards per carry for a guy averaging 2.9. The fact that both guys are struggling so much to me points to a bigger issue. Mainly the injuries and inconsistency along the OL.[/quote]

I agree with that. Both seem to struggle, yet when Betts does no one even complains, but when it is Portis everyone starts saying "injury prone", "something is missing", etc etc. It seems very silly, and as Matty said if you wanna blame anyone blame the Oline.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=dgack;370604]The answer is that for what each is being paid, we're basically getting roughly equal contribution from both of those guys. Look, [B]I don't see how anybody can look at CP's numbers and think he is not losing it. It's right there, staring you in the face[/B].[/QUOTE]

Using that logic, we should dump every guy playing at a skill position. I guess Cooley's best days are behind him too since he got a fat contract and hasn't done much this season. Moss should be dumped too. We should also dump JC since his numbers aren't looking too hot. Why not just dump the entire team and look to free agency?

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=dgack;370735]The problem with this argument is now you're lowering the bar for CP so he can trip over it like "99%" of NFL RB's. We didn't trade the best corner in pro football to the Broncos for some guy who's just as good as any other average NFL back. At the time, he was being compared to guys like LT in terms of franchise career potential.

I mean, the fact that anybody is even looking in Ladell Betts' direction should say something loud and clear about how healthy and effective Portis has been in the last 2 years.[/QUOTE]

To repeat what has been repeated many times before, Champ Bailey was not going to stay in D.C. He told the coaches that they HAD to leave D.C. So, we can complain about losing Bailey all we want, but it was going to happen anyways. And, I distinctly remember everyone being estatic when Portis came to town. Finally, the guy totalled more than 3,000 yards in his first two seasons in D.C. and broke the franchise rushing record. So, I have no reason why people still insist on complaining about the trade.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

Portis is the better back of the two. But he is clearly not the back he once was.

If he doesn't pick it up, I see CP departing at the end of this season.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=dgack;370735]The problem with this argument is now you're lowering the bar for CP so he can trip over it like "99%" of NFL RB's. We didn't trade the best corner in pro football to the Broncos for some guy who's just as good as any other average NFL back. At the time, he was being compared to guys like LT in terms of franchise career potential.

I mean, the fact that anybody is even looking in Ladell Betts' direction should say something loud and clear about how healthy and effective Portis has been in the last 2 years.[/QUOTE]

I don't think Portis deserves to be completely let off the hook. I would agree that his production has declined, but his production has declined right along with our offensive line. He was banged up last year, and I think he still has some lingering knee problems this year.

Like I said before, even if we had LT right now I don't think he'd get much behind this offensive line. Portis' production is down, but so is everyone else's, and just like John Madden says, "it all starts with the offensive line."

I just wish I could find someone to point fingers at with respect to the offensive line. The trainers is all I can think of, and I have a hard time blaming them for injuries.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

CP is the better back. Like most said, he is better in pass protection. However, I credit one of JC's fumbles in the NE game to Portis missing his block.

I think Portis needs to rest. Just because he has more talent, doesn't mean that he is always the better choice. I would also like to see a game where one back gets all the carries. Let's see if that can get somebody into a rhythm, and whether that will improve our rushing attack.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

Portis rushed 11 times for just 27 yards Sunday, and is averaging 3.4 yards per carry over the last six games as the feature back, [B]but Gibbs said he is mulling no changes and is not inclined to use running back Ladell Betts[/B], who surpassed 1,000 yards last season, more often. . . . The Redskins have been prone to fumbles, a problem that recurred Sunday. Quarterback Jason Campbell fumbled three times, and the Redskins have fumbled at least three times in four of their last five games. They have 15 fumbles in that span, losing seven. "They did a great job of making plays on the ball," Campbell said.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[quote=Mattyk72;370740]Betts hasn't done much of anything this year to warrant more carries. I just find it curious that people want to bench a guy averaging 3.9 yards per carry for a guy averaging 2.9. The fact that both guys are struggling so much to me points to a bigger issue. Mainly the injuries and inconsistency along the OL.[/quote]Ultimately you're dead on Matty, and the fact is that this offensive line is one of the worst in the league, and it will be impossible to rush behind it with anyone consistently.

But the point is this: Portis is averaging 3.8 yards an attempt now on 115 carries for 433 yards. That's a crapload of carries to still be in the 3.8 range.

Betts only has 47 attempts through 7 games. 2.9 y/a possibly reflects on an unlucky streak in a small sample size.

I think a lot of us would like to see what Betts can do taking the lead on Portis for awhile. If he can give the running game some semblance of competancy, even if that's only 4.2 yards/carry, our offense can make a drastic improvement. If Betts is useless, give Rock a chance when he gets healthy. Both Betts and Rock have been effective runners in the past (as of course has Portis).

Portis' blocking has been too inconsistent this season to warrant keeping him in the starting lineup as a pass blocker. Even when the blocking is good, he's not creating the big play.

This offense is just terrible right now, has been for the last two games, and something has to be done. We can't really do anything with the line right now, so we either have to change the back or the quarterback or the receivers.

P.S.-I'm not suggesting we change the quarterback.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;370824]Ultimately you're dead on Matty, and the fact is that this offensive line is one of the worst in the league, and it will be impossible to rush behind it with anyone consistently.

But the point is this: Portis is averaging 3.8 yards an attempt now on 115 carries for 433 yards. That's a crapload of carries to still be in the 3.8 range.

Betts only has 47 attempts through 7 games. 2.9 y/a possibly reflects on an unlucky streak in a small sample size.

I think a lot of us would like to see what Betts can do taking the lead on Portis for awhile. If he can give the running game some semblance of competancy, even if that's only 4.2 yards/carry, our offense can make a drastic improvement. If Betts is useless, give Rock a chance when he gets healthy. Both Betts and Rock have been effective runners in the past (as of course has Portis).

Portis' blocking has been too inconsistent this season to warrant keeping him in the starting lineup as a pass blocker. Even when the blocking is good, he's not creating the big play.

This offense is just terrible right now, has been for the last two games, and something has to be done. We can't really do anything with the line right now, so we either have to change the back or the quarterback or the receivers.

P.S.-I'm not suggesting we change the quarterback.[/QUOTE]

Changing the feature back only makes sense if you think the other guys can do a better job. After having watched Betts for years, I love the guy and want to see him get more carries, but I don't see him doing a better job than Portis. I'm frankly tired of hearing complaints about Portis when the guy is usually getting hit before he gets to the line of scrimmage. Hopefully the line will improve and this entire discussion will be a moot point.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;370844]Changing the feature back only makes sense if you think the other guys can do a better job. After having watched Betts for years, I love the guy and want to see him get more carries, but I don't see him doing a better job than Portis. I'm frankly tired of hearing complaints about Portis when the guy is usually getting hit before he gets to the line of scrimmage. Hopefully the line will improve and this entire discussion will be a moot point.[/quote]Well of course, but I think Portis' performance leaves a lot to be desired.

If Portis was a little quicker, he wouldn't get hit near the line quite so often. The line has been bad, but so has CP.

I think a change at RB would help. I don't think it would help a lot, because the line is still bad, but even if it just helps a little, it's a good move then, is it not?

Of course, if the line gets it together, Portis or Betts could have success. I just want the back in there that gives us the best chance to win, and at this point in time, I can't really say that it's Clinton Portis.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[quote=hooskins;370743]I agree with that. Both seem to struggle, yet when Betts does no one even complains, but when it is Portis everyone starts saying "injury prone", "something is missing", etc etc. It seems very silly, and as Matty said if you wanna blame anyone blame the Oline.[/quote]
With both of them struggling onl one thing has changed and that the injuries to our O line and one would have to assume thats the problem with the running game. One reason Portis takes more of a hit than Betts is what the team is paying him compared to Betts.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;370754]To repeat what has been repeated many times before, Champ Bailey was not going to stay in D.C. He told the coaches that they HAD to leave D.C. So, we can complain about losing Bailey all we want, but it was going to happen anyways. And, I distinctly remember everyone being estatic when Portis came to town. Finally, the guy totalled more than 3,000 yards in his first two seasons in D.C. and broke the franchise rushing record. So, I have no reason why people still insist on complaining about the trade.[/quote]


Of course, I realize that Champ wasn't going to stay, but that has nothing to do with what I was saying. I am not complaining about the deal at all. I defended it then and still think it was the right decision at the time. What I am illustrating is precisely what we thiought we were getting THEN, and what we have NOW. When the deal occurred, CP was considered to be a team-defining RB. A franchise guy. A guy you build your team around.

Regardless of the Champ situation, I would love to hear the scenario where Portis has been the rock and foundation of this team we thought we were getting in that deal.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

A RB is only as good as the big fatties up front, and this year they haven't been good.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

There's a few players on the offense who are doing thier parts, namely:

Samuels
Kendall
Rabach
Cooley
Randle El
Campbell
Sellers

So, according to me, the blame for the offense being at its worst since 2004 falls on the four positions that aren't getting it done; RG, RT, WR, and RB.

Obviously the biggest culprits are RG and RT. But can we do anything to improve this? Well, yes, we can get Todd Wade out of there and put Stephon Heyer in. But that's about it as far as fixing the line. We are going to have to compensate in other areas.

Should we replace Santana in the starting lineup? Well, we could, but I don't think that does a lot of good. We lose a hefty deal of important big play potential with him out of the lineup, and that's a good way to circumvent the lack of consistent offense.

So that leaves one position where a change could do some good. I don't think Betts could be doing worse than Portis is right now. It's not all Portis, but he certainly isn't helping.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[quote=Mattyk72;370856]A RB is only as good as the big fatties up front, and this year they haven't been good.[/quote]Again, though, that doesn't excuse failure in the open field.

Portis hasn't been good for us this year. He looks like he's too hurt to improve in the short term.

Plenty of guys can fail behind this offensive line, we don't need to keep on chuggin' until Portis can succeed.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;370750]Using that logic, we should dump every guy playing at a skill position. I guess Cooley's best days are behind him too since he got a fat contract and hasn't done much this season. Moss should be dumped too. We should also dump JC since his numbers aren't looking too hot. Why not just dump the entire team and look to free agency?[/quote]

Where did I ever say we should dump Portis? I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is I wish guys would stop with the denial on CP. He is NOT fine. He is NOT just being victimized by a bad O-Line. He is NEVER going to be the back he was when we acquired him, again, in my opinion.

You guys talk about the '05 season like it validates everything but you completely gloss over the fact that he broke records through quantity of touches, attempting to Curtis Martin himself through the record books. Well, guess what? The man is simply not built for the kind of running he's doing here.

I don't really care if it's the system, the O-Line, the playcalling, or his own biology. I'm not making that argument. Fact is, he's never approached the level of play here that he had in Denver, and he's fading fast.

If one of you guys wants to tell me how he's going to return to the days of 5.5 rushing averages, 15 TD seasons, and huge, back-breaking runs of 50-60 yards on opponents, I'm all ears. But I don't see it happening here, regardless of who's fault that is.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

And to answer your straw-man about Cooley and Moss, SGG, I do think we need to re-evaluate Moss.

Cooley is a bogus argument since he's already got 5TD's on the year which is 2 away from his career high. His yards are down, but that's to be expected with a young QB who is getting ZERO help from the other receivers.

That was terribly weak sauce and you know it.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[quote=dgack;370867]Where did I ever say we should dump Portis? I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is I wish guys would stop with the denial on CP. He is NOT fine. He is NOT just being victimized by a bad O-Line. He is NEVER going to be the back he was when we acquired him, again, in my opinion.

You guys talk about the '05 season like it validates everything but you completely gloss over the fact that he broke records through quantity of touches, attempting to Curtis Martin himself through the record books. Well, guess what? The man is simply not built for the kind of running he's doing here.

I don't really care if it's the system, the O-Line, the playcalling, or his own biology. I'm not making that argument. Fact is, he's never approached the level of play here that he had in Denver, and he's fading fast.

If one of you guys wants to tell me how he's going to return to the days of 5.5 rushing averages, 15 TD seasons, and huge, back-breaking runs of 50-60 yards on opponents, I'm all ears. But I don't see it happening here, regardless of who's fault that is.[/quote]I made this argument preseason. Then I backed down a bit after the Miami game.

I think a lot of backs could have been effective behind Samuels, Kendall, Rabach, Thomas, and Jansen. Now, we don't have Thomas and Jansen, and it's really starting to hurt.

I really feel now though that I had the "Portis Prospectus" nailed in the preseason. Unfortunately, I don't feel good about it. It's a sinking feeling knowing now that the guy's best days are behind him.

He's not an elite back anymore. He was for his first 4 years in the league, but now he's a shadow of his former self. He's still a crafty vet who can run 15 times a game for a team who emphasizes the pass game (like we can with better protection), but he's not going to carry a team on his legs anymore. He just can't, physically.

It's very clear that playing to our strengths is throwing the football, in a max protect kind of way, often using play action. Campbell is going to be forced to hit tight windows, but its something that he's good at.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[quote=GTripp0012;370866]Again, though, that doesn't excuse failure in the open field.

Portis hasn't been good for us this year. He looks like he's too hurt to improve in the short term.

Plenty of guys can fail behind this offensive line, we don't need to keep on chuggin' until Portis can succeed.[/quote]

Problem is he's not even able to get to the open field, sometimes he's lucky to just get back to the LOS.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[quote=Mattyk72;370875]Problem is he's not even able to get to the open field, sometimes he's lucky to just get back to the LOS.[/quote]Oftentimes, yes.

And when he does get the oppertunity, he gets tripped up by whatever blew across in the breeze.

I'm not making this up, he's really struggling to gain postive yardage in similar situations to plays that he would break wide open two years ago.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

So with the updated Cap Sheets up there, it's pretty easy to see why guys start talking about Betts over CP right now. You may say, "Betts isn't any better than Portis!" or "Portis is by far the better, more complete players!", and you may be right.

But, I think we're all looking at that glistening $41m of remaining contract and thinking, "wow... Ladell makes a quarter of that?"

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;370882]Oftentimes, yes.

And when he does get the oppertunity, he gets tripped up by whatever blew across in the breeze.

I'm not making this up, he's really struggling to gain postive yardage in similar situations to plays that he would break wide open two years ago.[/QUOTE]

I don't think that there is a big difference between how we see this issue GTripp. But, I cannot agree that Betts will be better than Portis (unless the O-line improves). I also cannot agree that Portis is getting tripped up by whatever blew across in the breeze. The guy is still one damn physical back and he usually doesn't go down by just getting touched.

Dgack,

I am definitely disappointed in Portis' production. However, I think 90% of his woes have to do with the piss-poor play of the O-line and the fact that defenses know that we are going to run left a disproportionate amount of the time. I do agree though that Portis' numbers don't justify his salary. With regard to Betts, I think we can all agree that we signed him at rock-bottom prices.

I heard a lot of people saying Edge had "lost IT" after he went to Arizona. Now that Russ Grimm is coaching Arizona's line, surprise, surprise, the Edge has IT again. IMO, if our line starts playing better, we will see Portis start posting great numbers again and he will have rediscovered IT.

Finally, I hope you know that I am not pissy with you. You have presented coherent arguments. I have enjoyed talking with people like you and GTripp about this subject. I just can't the posters who write things like "Porits stikns , he is being the worstest back ever."

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

Bring John Riggins out of retirement!!!

[IMG]http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/27/279505.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

I'm not going to get into the argument over why Portis is playing so terrible. I'm sure it's a combination of many things including contract year and previous injuries. Honestly though I would love to see Betts start getting more reps. I know when he has gotten them this season he really hasn't done anything with them but I think he just needs to find his rhythm out there like he did last year.

Whatever it is though the bottom line is this:
Portis isn't performing even close to what he should be and if our running game doesen't get started either this week or next, I think it is time for a change.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;370989]I don't think that there is a big difference between how we see this issue GTripp. But, I cannot agree that Betts will be better than Portis (unless the O-line improves). I also cannot agree that Portis is getting tripped up by whatever blew across in the breeze. The guy is still one damn physical back and he usually doesn't go down by just getting touched.

Dgack,

I am definitely disappointed in Portis' production. However, I think 90% of his woes have to do with the piss-poor play of the O-line and the fact that defenses know that we are going to run left a disproportionate amount of the time. I do agree though that Portis' numbers don't justify his salary. With regard to Betts, I think we can all agree that we signed him at rock-bottom prices.

I heard a lot of people saying Edge had "lost IT" after he went to Arizona. Now that Russ Grimm is coaching Arizona's line, surprise, surprise, the Edge has IT again. IMO, if our line starts playing better, we will see Portis start posting great numbers again and he will have rediscovered IT.

Finally, I hope you know that I am not pissy with you. You have presented coherent arguments. I have enjoyed talking with people like you and GTripp about this subject. I just can't the posters who write things like "Porits stikns , he is being the worstest back ever."[/QUOTE]

Nice reference about Edge....and very true. I've just read through all 5 pages of this thread, and I actually think most of these points are valid. Obviously with the O line injuries, the running game isn't working great...but it does seem to me that Portis isn't what he used to be....he's not making anyone miss and most of the time is brought down by 1 guy, granted a lot of times that guy is in the backfield, but he doesn't seem to have that quickness and burst like he used to....and the same thing goes for Moss as well....neither of them look right. I just hope it is some small injury or something and not attitude or something like that.

For the people that were talking about the $$$ that Portis is making vs. Betts, to me the money wasted right now is on Saunders. This play calling is nothing spectacular by any means, and I honestly feel that IF Joe was still calling the plays....there wouldn't be much difference....hell it may be even better and he'd be more involved and might give this offense an identity that it certainly does not have right now.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=Cowell;371028]I'm not going to get into the argument over why Portis is playing so terrible. I'm sure it's a combination of many things including contract year and previous injuries. Honestly though I would love to see Betts start getting more reps. I know when he has gotten them this season he really hasn't done anything with them but I think he just needs to find his rhythm out there like he did last year.

Whatever it is though the bottom line is this:
Portis isn't performing even close to what he should be and if our running game doesen't get started either this week or next, I think it is time for a change.[/QUOTE]

As I said earlier, I think Betts needs to get more reps. That said, why should we make a switch before we see that Betts can actually do a better job than Portis after getting more reps?

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

Well obviously if Betts has the around the same or worse production with his reps then I say keep it how it is because Portis is the better back. I would still like to see Betts get more reps though, something has to give.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

boy i'm sure glad portis miss training camp to keep him fresh for the regualr season. Because its sure paying off now. Instead of doing the dirty work the rest of the team had to do.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

Skins need to do more zone blocking, something Portis enjoyed in Denver while averaging 5.5 yards over 2 seasons . . . Gibbs has him running inside like he's Larry Brown. Unfortunately, Portis is taking Brown-like punishment.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

i was going to comment on the backs, but i think that it's an o-line issue. we went from having one of the top o-lines to one of the worst in 2 games. thomas and jansen aren't just bodies in there, they're all-pro linemen.

i think we forget too fast the game is won in the trenches. part of reason our D has been playing so well, yesterday aside, is that we've been getting pressure from our front four. heck we even sacked brady yesterday.

while unforunate, i wouldn't expect either betts or portis to do significantly better than the other. remember this was supposed to be the year of the two back league; we've just been fucked royally with injuries.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;370561]One of the biggest myths in Redskins history is that Betts is a power back.[/QUOTE]

And Portis is a franchise back as well.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;370754]To repeat what has been repeated many times before, Champ Bailey was not going to stay in D.C. He told the coaches that they HAD to leave D.C. So, we can complain about losing Bailey all we want, but it was going to happen anyways. And, I distinctly remember everyone being estatic when Portis came to town. Finally, the guy totalled more than 3,000 yards in his first two seasons in D.C. and broke the franchise rushing record. So, I have no reason why people still insist on complaining about the trade.[/QUOTE]

Everyone?????:eek:

The fact is and I am going to sum this whole debate up here and now, Portis is nothing more than a third down change of pace type back, or a big time back in Denver take your pick, I believe Portis's problem now is the fact that he starting to realize he wasnt as good as he, or a lot of others thought he was coming out of Denver, now he has his tail between his legs because he knows he can not take the pounding of tough running. He needs to be with Denver where he can run in space for big gains, like when he amassed almost 500 yds and 7-8 TD's against none existent defenses like he did against KC twice a year when he was in Denver. We were had by Shanahan, he saw Gibbs coming a mile away, just like the Jags and Brunell.

As for Bailey, yes he wanted out but we were under no obligation to give him away as we did, we could have franchised him, received 2 #1 picks, and kept our 2nd rd pick we threw in with the Portis deal, that would have brought back a whole lot of talent if utilized properly, lets start with a RB in that draft by the name of Stephen Jackson, I think he would have fit in with Gibbs type of pound the ball running game, we could have drafted some O-linemen to help him out as well with all those picks, maybe we wouldn't be in such a mess right now with our o-line if we properly addressed it and built real quality depth. What am I thinking Portis is worth all that and more, now I am making myself laugh!

3 words for Portis, DENVER, SYSTEM, BACK!

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=offiss;371234]And Portis is a franchise back as well.[/QUOTE]

You are entitled to your opinion. You are also entitled to post pretty much whatever you want to post on this site. You also might be one fine human being. So, I hope you don't take this post as me getting all bent out of shape, but I cannot understand why exactly you post here.

All of your posts are the same (i.e., bitch about our players, make jokes about Gibbs' senility, etc.). Your take on the state of the team is almost always the same. I personally don't understand how people can never change their opinions about issues that are constantly changing (like the state of the team).

I have personally called out the coaches and various players. I have also given the coaches and the players. I call it like I see it. I think you, on the other hand, call things before you even see them. Ever since Ramsey was benched by Gibbs, you haven't been quite the same.

Again, I don't mean to personally attack you. I just can't get over how your posts are like a broken record.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=offiss;371238]Everyone?????:eek:

The fact is and I am going to sum this whole debate up here and now, [B]Portis is nothing more than a third down change of pace type back[/B], or a big time back in Denver take your pick, I believe Portis's problem now is the fact that he starting to realize he wasnt as good as he, or a lot of others thought he was coming out of Denver, now he has his tail between his legs because he knows he can not take the pounding of tough running. He needs to be with Denver where he can run in space for big gains, like when he amassed almost 500 yds and 7-8 TD's against none existent defenses like he did against KC twice a year when he was in Denver. We were had by Shanahan, he saw Gibbs coming a mile away, just like the Jags and Brunell.

As for Bailey, yes he wanted out but we were under no obligation to give him away as we did, we could have franchised him, [B]received 2 #1 picks, and kept our 2nd rd pick we threw in with the Portis deal[/B], that would have brought back a whole lot of talent if utilized properly, lets start with a RB in that draft by the name of Stephen Jackson, I think he would have fit in with Gibbs type of pound the ball running game, we could have drafted some O-linemen to help him out as well with all those picks, maybe we wouldn't be in such a mess right now with our o-line if we properly addressed it and built real quality depth. What am I thinking Portis is worth all that and more, now I am making myself laugh!

3 words for Portis, DENVER, SYSTEM, BACK![/QUOTE]

First, I don't know of many 3rd down backs who have racked up 3,000+ yards in Denver in 2 years and 2,800+ yards in Washington in 2 years.

Second, I stand corrected. You were among the minority who opposed the Portis trade. But you were also the same guy who cited Tatum Bell as evidence that we got hosed in the Portis trade and for the proposition that Portis is a system back. [URL="http://http://www.redskinswarpath.com/locker-room/8457-whos-better-clinton-portis-tatum.html?highlight=Portis#post113951"]http://http://www.redskinswarpath.com/locker-room/8457-whos-better-clinton-portis-tatum.html?highlight=Portis#post113951[/URL]How is Tatum Bell doing these days? Didn't the Broncos have to sign some big-name back even though they can just plug guys like Quentin Griffin into the lineup? How is Quentin Griffin doing these days?

Third, who offered us 2 1st rounders for Bailey? Or are you making that up?

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

i prefer betts but im content with portis starting as well. id atleast like to see betts get more carries, around 10 a game would be fine rather than 2 or 3 a game

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;371241]You are entitled to your opinion. You are also entitled to post pretty much whatever you want to post on this site. You also might be one fine human being. So, I hope you don't take this post as me getting all bent out of shape, but I cannot understand why exactly you post here.

All of your posts are the same (i.e., bitch about our players, make jokes about Gibbs' senility, etc.). Your take on the state of the team is almost always the same. I personally don't understand how people can never change their opinions about issues that are constantly changing (like the state of the team).

I have personally called out the coaches and various players. I have also given the coaches and the players. I call it like I see it. I think you, on the other hand, call things before you even see them. Ever since Ramsey was benched by Gibbs, you haven't been quite the same.

Again, I don't mean to personally attack you. I just can't get over how your posts are like a broken record.[/QUOTE]

I can appreciate difference in opinion and not making debate personnel, well said.

You are correct that I repeat myself, I do say the same things over and over, I am tired of listening to me say the same things after almost 4 years, but there is a reason, we continue to do the same things over and over as a team, nothing changes, the same problems that were there 4 seasons ago are still there, and Gibbs ain't changing, his first season we were all wondering what he was doing in the second half of games with the constant conservative 3 and outs putting the burden of winning in the defenses hands, we all chalked it up to him getting re acclimated back into the NFL after 10 years off, well he hasn't, and he isn't going to, so if I sound like a broken record it's because I have been watching one in Gibbs for the last 4 seasons.

If I rip our team it is because I want to see it fixed, I enjoy winning probably more than most, that is why I am so hard on Gibbs, I hate knowing we are spinning our wheels as an organization, I want us to right the ship and get back to our winning tradition, but patting people on the back, and sugar coating reality only prolongs the inevitable, I don't feel sorry for these guys they make way to much money for me to shed a tear. It's tough love, just because you discipline your child doesn't mean you don't love he, or she, it means you want the very best for them and if they have to be punished to get the point across then so be it, they will thank you later in life. Same here until they realize Gibbs is just flat out lost as a coach this problem is not getting fixed so long as he is in charge, I don't care how many assistant head coaches and head coaches and so on he hires and gives an important title to them, it's over as far as he is concerned, hire a real coach and a real GM and let Gibbs walk around in the stands and shake hands with everyone on game day because that is about his value to this franchise at this point and time, he can be the face of the Skins just not a decision maker. It's over Joe, thank you very much for the 80's!!

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;371243]First, I don't know of many 3rd down backs who have racked up 3,000+ yards in Denver in 2 years and 2,800+ yards in Washington in 2 years.

Second, I stand corrected. You were among the minority who opposed the Portis trade. But you were also the same guy who cited Tatum Bell as evidence that we got hosed in the Portis trade and for the proposition that Portis is a system back. [URL="http://http://www.redskinswarpath.com/locker-room/8457-whos-better-clinton-portis-tatum.html?highlight=Portis#post113951"]http://http://www.redskinswarpath.com/locker-room/8457-whos-better-clinton-portis-tatum.html?highlight=Portis#post113951[/URL]How is Tatum Bell doing these days? Didn't the Broncos have to sign some big-name back even though they can just plug guys like Quentin Griffin into the lineup? How is Quentin Griffin doing these days?

Third, who offered us 2 1st rounders for Bailey? Or are you making that up?[/QUOTE]

Please, to address your first point, your right not many backs in Denver were even qualified to be third down back's in this league, but they rack up 1500 yards running there only to be never heard from again once they leave. That should tell you what that system is to an average back, Take a look at Portis's numbers against the Chiefs alone when he was in Denver he compiled astronomical numbers against them and remember they couldn't stop anyone. You may not know this but I wanted us to draft Portis ahead of Betts but Denver nailed him a few spots ahead of us, I thought he would make an excellent change of pace back who could give you big play ability but would be a 10 to 15 carry a game type back, my biggest complaint about Portis is really not his fault, I can't blame the guy for taking 52 mil to play for us I know I would have, the problem is our stupidity of not recognizing what he really is, not to mention Gibbs really needed a big back to play smash mouth football, yes gibbs in the past has had a lot of success with smaller backs but it was always as I pointed out limited situational type backs, Portis has proven he can't take the beating game to game.

As for Tatum, I was never a big fan of Tatum Bell, but I did use him as an example of what a basic nobody like Bell can do in that system, he kicked our ass when we went there and out played Portis, my point with Bell was Denver can plug in and average at best back and make him look great even Bell, heck they made Ron Dayne look like a decent back and he's horrible. Portis on the other hand had talent which was perfect for Denver, a very fast RB who could take the ball to the house, look at his yards per carry since he's arrived he's gone backwards since Denver, he's still young he just is not a smash mouth type RB, he needs to be used in space and we really don't do that.

You cited 2 X-Denver backs and asked how they are doing? Does anyone really know, or care? But you forgot one more that they got rid of, Clinton Portis, how's he doing these day's?:(

As for Bailey, my point about the draft picks was we were going to franchise him which will render 2 #1 picks to whom ever signs him which someone would have paid, Bailey as you well know is highly regarded as the top CB in the league, at least at that time he was. We never franchised him that I can remember to actually obtain offers but I don't think I am being outlandish in saying we would have received top price [2#1's] if we did franchise him, so I based those picks on the assumption that he would have brought back a nice draft, I believe I would have been right in assuming that, but you never know?

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

Hey, look, in my mind, it speaks volumes to look at Denver and what they are able to do with RB's because the way they focus on running the ball is precisely what we want and need to be doing. They may seem bad now, but they are running the kind of offense that's going to allow Cutler to be a successful QB.

So if Denver's system is what made Portis great (and I don't think that's entirely true; he's been far more successful than any other back to leave Denver, probably in history) -- I think we should be asking ourselves how we can get closer to that kind of system where a guy like Ladell Betts can look "great" and we aren't just rolling the dice on franchise RB's, because it's increasingly clear that the LT's and Larry Johnsons of the world are rarities.

Selvin Young is a nobody, and he looked pretty good tonight out there for Denver. In his first NFL start he peeled off an 18-yard rush, which is only a yard longer than CP's long on the season. That just doesn't make any sense to me. I know our line is shredded, but I'm having a hard time believing that we couldn't find a guy on this team who has a good chance of breaking one every now and then.

Maybe it isn't Ladell, maybe it's Rock. I have no idea. All I know is the current run game approach (i.e., run Portis 20 times and average about 3 yards a carry) isn't really working.