Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

do you guys want the war? are you happy with the economy? are you happy with the United States energy policy? are you happy with our foreign policy? the one thing i do know is it will be status quo, if McCain gets elected. every time i hear someone like Obama speak about the middle class, im all ears. for some reason, it seems like one of this administrations goals has been to get rid of the middle class. i can gladly say i never voted for anyone with Bush as a last name

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;451564]do you guys want the war? are you happy with the economy? are you happy with the United States energy policy? are you happy with our foreign policy? the one thing i do know is it will be status quo, if McCain gets elected. every time i hear someone like Obama speak about the middle class, im all ears. for some reason, it seems like one of this administrations goals has been to get rid of the middle class. i can gladly say i never voted for anyone with Bush as a last name[/QUOTE]

Framing the issue as "who wants war?" is pretty rhetorical. The real question is whether the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are necessary. The former question is not even up for debate, the latter is tougher.

Also, I think it's pretty rhetorical to say that Bush and McCain have been fighting a war on the middle class. Those Dobbs-esque statements make my head hurt.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[quote=dmek25;451564]do you guys want the war? are you happy with the economy? are you happy with the United States energy policy? are you happy with our foreign policy? the one thing i do know is it will be status quo, if McCain gets elected. every time i hear someone like Obama speak about the middle class, im all ears. for some reason, it seems like one of this administrations goals has been to get rid of the middle class. i can gladly say i never voted for anyone with Bush as a last name[/quote]
Too bad all of Obama's policys are only going to make things worse.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

We can be political to an extent but let's keep it civil guys.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;451565]Framing the issue as "who wants war?" is pretty rhetorical. The real question is whether the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are necessary. The former question is not even up for debate, the latter is tougher.

Also, I think it's pretty rhetorical to say that Bush and McCain have been fighting a war on the middle class. [B]Those Dobbs-esque statements make my head hurt.[/B][/quote]

Sounds like someone doesn't like Lou Dobbs. ;)

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[quote=SmootSmack;451549]What does that even mean? It sounds like you're just regurgitating some campaign slogan you heard somewhere.[/quote]

No kidding. This stuff is why for the most part I try to stay away from the political threads around here. There are a lot of very well stated, interesting opinions, but some of the stuff makes my head hurt. I love talking politics, but I'd rather do it face to face with family and friends. I find more often than not online political discussions can turn into bar politics- a lot of shouting and force-feeding of view points.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[QUOTE=DynamiteRave;451587]Sounds like someone doesn't like Lou Dobbs. ;)[/QUOTE]

SGG stated a F Lou Dobbs thread a couple of years ago. And I couldn't agree more. The more I hear the guy talk the more annoyed I get.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[quote=SmootSmack;451601]SGG stated a F Lou Dobbs thread a couple of years ago. And I couldn't agree more. The more I hear the guy talk the more annoyed I get.[/quote]

My grandmother doesn't like him either.

I don't watch CNN enough to actually state an opinion on him, since I prefer MSNBC.

Care to get a little more in-depth about why you don't care for him? Anyone else feel free to pile on. :)

From what I've seen of him he comes off as being a little smarmy at times...

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[quote=dmek25;451564]do you guys want the war? are you happy with the economy? are you happy with the United States energy policy? are you happy with our foreign policy? the one thing i do know is it will be status quo, if McCain gets elected. every time i hear someone like Obama speak about the middle class, im all ears. for some reason, it seems like one of this administrations goals has been to get rid of the middle class. i can gladly say i never voted for anyone with Bush as a last name[/quote]
If your all ears when Obama speaks then what are these changes that he is talking about.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;451635]If your all ears when Obama speaks then what are these changes that he is talking about.[/QUOTE]

Health care and early education reform. I'm not 100% certain where he intends to get the money from, possibly this unnecessary that is being waged in Middle East, though. (That is no way meant to be sarcasm, I actually don't know where he intends to get the funding)

Just so you know, I'm going to get involved in this discussion, I'm not talking about politics on this board.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[QUOTE=DynamiteRave;451607]My grandmother doesn't like him either.

I don't watch CNN enough to actually state an opinion on him, since I prefer MSNBC.

Care to get a little more in-depth about why you don't care for him? Anyone else feel free to pile on. :)

From what I've seen of him he comes off as being a little smarmy at times...[/QUOTE]

I'm more of an MSNBC guy myself. But CNN is what's available here at work (more often than MSNBC is).

Smarmy is a good word to describe Dobbs.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;451635]what are these changes that he is talking about.[/QUOTE]


What Changes!??!?! Dude! Where have you been? Do you really expect me to believe that you have never listened to one of Obama's speeches? He's made a bunch of them! Hey, if you've been busy or whatever then...........You have an internet connection, just Google Obama and change. You'll have to type it in like this:

Obama Change

Then You'll get a entire list of them! :food-smil

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

It has to be about more than speeches. What is so different about Obama's platform from previous democratic platforms? What has Obama done in his brief time as a legislator to accomplish, or at the very least, mobilize change?

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[quote=Miller101;451688]What Changes!??!?! Dude! Where have you been? Do you really expect me to believe that you have never listened to one of Obama's speeches? He's made a bunch of them! Hey, if you've been busy or whatever then...........You have an internet connection, just Google Obama and change. You'll have to type it in like this:

Obama Change

Then You'll get a entire list of them! :food-smil[/quote]
The reason I ask is because people who back him and say its time for a change nver answer the question as to what or how he is going to change anything. I can answer the question for Obama supporters. Obama thinks that Americia is great because of goverment and not great because of its people. So to make Americia better he want to do a massive expansion of goverment so we are a more dependent upon goverment. The problem is that the goverment seems to mess up every program they develope and it always cost 3, 4 , 5 times more than planned. Just look at social programs and how they have failed over and over again but we just keep throwing money into them and getting the same results. I am taxed to death and I do not need any more failed goverment programs for them to raise my taxes again and again as their cost go up and up. I could go on but this should show how I feel. We live in a Americia and I'm not attacking Obama supports I'm just stating why I do not support him.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;451691]It has to be about more than speeches. What is so different about Obama's platform from previous democratic platforms? What has Obama done in his brief time as a legislator to accomplish, or at the very least, mobilize change?[/QUOTE]

I think that is THE definitive question of the upcoming election.

Obama seems to me a lot of sizzle and no steak. The only thing that I can say with any degree of certainty that he does well is make speeches. Granted that's 180 degrees better than Bush, who finds difficulty pronouncing nuclear, but it's not enough to warrant a vote in November. I just don't see the reason for all of the hype. What I am afraid is going to happen, is all of the "hope" and "change" that's being bandied about as if it were a new concept is going to come crashing down upon all of these supposedly newly energized americans that are his base. What happens when all of these vague promises don't amount to anything more than the status quo? Even greater numbers of disillusioned citizens who will find it that much more difficult to get excited or hopeful about anything pertaining to government in the future.

While you can level much of the above at Clinton and McCain, I didn't hear nearly as much hyperbole coming out of their camps. It's going to get a whole lot uglier before it gets better. I'd like to see someone elected who has the fortitude to admit that upfront and then present a clear vision to get us through it. I think we've all had enough of empty promises at best and blatant lies at worst. I'd like to see something from Obama's past to indicate this isn't more of the same.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;451701]Granted that's 180 degrees better than Bush, who finds difficulty pronouncing nuclear, [/quote]
Don't mis-underestimate Bush, it' part of his strategery.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[quote=Miller101;451688]What Changes!??!?! Dude! Where have you been? Do you really expect me to believe that you have never listened to one of Obama's speeches? He's made a bunch of them! Hey, if you've been busy or whatever then...........You have an internet connection, just Google Obama and change. You'll have to type it in like this:

Obama Change

Then You'll get a entire list of them! :food-smil[/quote]
Your such a typical Obama supporter. Wow he makes a bunch of great speeches where he talks alot about change and hope, but doesn't actually say anything. He promises to solve everybodys problems and people love it. Then he'll say how he's different from other politicians, even though he isn't. The speeches are just one slogan after another and how Bush is bad and he's going to change, so he must be great. The few ideas he does have aren't new and they are not going to work. Bigger government is not the answer, which is what he wants to do.

Ever see one of his press conferences where he has to apologize for all the nut jobs he's associated with? He's not so articulate then.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;451709]Don't mis-underestimate Bush, it' part of his strategery.[/quote]

At least we can be guaranteed that our next President won't flat out embarrass himself every time he opens his mouth. But then again Saturday Night Live just won't be the same.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[quote=Mattyk72;451713]At least we can be guaranteed that our next President won't flat out embarrass himself every time he opens his mouth. But then again Saturday Night Live just won't be the same.[/quote]
You're 100% right. LOL. Will Ferrell did a fantastic Bush impression, no one has done it better. I also agree on Obama or McCain, I don't think either will give SNL too much fuel for the fire.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;451720]You're 100% right. LOL. Will Ferrell did a fantastic Bush impression, no one has done it better. I also agree on Obama or McCain, I don't think either will give SNL too much fuel for the fire.[/quote]

That was the one reason I was secretly hoping for Hilary to win. SNL would have been great because they would have been able to bring out Bill every week. Darrell Hammond does a great impression of him.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

I don't think anyone can top Bush but this speech is borderline...maybe it's just me? What is he trying to say? Is he really smiling (starts at 1:30 sec)? Does anything he say line-up with his voting record?

[yt]A7RuX4pQPLY[/yt]

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

When Fox News is trashing you, it's got to be awful!
[YT]3aMDJP4VxY4[/YT]

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[QUOTE=steveo395;451711]Your such a typical Obama supporter. Wow he makes a bunch of great speeches where he talks alot about change and hope, but doesn't actually say anything. He promises to solve everybodys problems and people love it. Then he'll say how he's different from other politicians, even though he isn't. The speeches are just one slogan after another and how Bush is bad and he's going to change, so he must be great. The few ideas he does have aren't new and they are not going to work. Bigger government is not the answer, which is what he wants to do.[/QUOTE]

Obama is your typical politician in that he's promising a lot, trying to avoid giving detailed descriptions of how he will take us to the mountain top, etc. But if he's an ordinary politician in that regard, why do so many on the right seem to resent him? So what if he "talks big"....who cares? If all politicians "talk big," why is Obama being singled out for ridicule and being labeled someone with no substance?

Also, being an effective speaker, articulate, and charismatic is pretty damn important if you are the head of state. Your job is to inspire public confidence in government, communicate with foreign leaders, and push legislation through Congress. Like it or not, a great many people and politicians find Obama enormously appealing. He has the same "it" factor that Reagan and JFK had.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

If McCain's strategy this Fall is to say Obama is all sizzle and no steak or that he gives great speeches, the GOP is in big trouble. People fail to see it's not that Obama simply gives great speeches, but he has the ability to connect that inspiration to tangible policy, ideas, and ideological differences between him and his opponent(s).

John McCain had better pound him on policy and experience, and not this gibberish about Obama only speaks well. And if experience was what people wanted from the Democratic nominee, Joe Biden, Chris Dodd, and John Edwards would still be campaigning, would they not? And who can forget Bill Richardson's extensive resume? In terms of policy, there are vast differences between McCain and Obama. Plain and simple.

But to suggest that Senator Obama isn't electable or has empty ideas, is to somehow suggest that millions of Americans that voted for him, and the hundreds of others that endorsed him, are somehow delusional and caught up in the moment.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

It'll be Obama because it's very unlikely the party in power will hold the White House with a down economy, an unpopular war, and after holding the office for the last eight years. Obama has a savvy enough campaign staff to not mess up too bad, IMO. It's a very tough road for McCain, given the usual political trends.

As for politicians not being clear in speeches, promising too much, etc.: this is the nature of American politics and the politics of democracy in general. Nothing new here.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[quote=SmootSmack;451324]Is that really her doing, or ignorance on the part of Americans....or 70Chip's doing?[/quote]

Thanks for the blurb. The latest rumor is that the Republicans have video of Michell Obama railing against "whitey" at church. Tell 10 friends.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[QUOTE=12thMan;451802]But to suggest that Senator Obama isn't electable or has empty ideas, is to somehow suggest that millions of Americans that voted for him, and the hundreds of others that endorsed him, are somehow delusional and caught up in the moment.[/QUOTE]

I think a lot of people would suggest that indeed. I realize primaries are not the time for ideas since it is very difficult to differentiate yourself from an opponent you usually stand shoulder to shoulder with but Obama has been remarkably light on ideas other than "change" in general. Given the current environment that might be enough but I find no fault with people who wonder what exactly he thinks he is going to do when he never really says other than pretty general directions.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

Obama doesn't need issues, he's a "lightworker":

[url=http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/06/06/notes060608.DTL&type=printable]Is Obama an enlightened being? / Spiritual wise ones say: This sure ain't no ordinary politician. You buying it?[/url]

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[QUOTE=JWsleep;451815]It'll be Obama because it's very unlikely the party in power will hold the White House with a down economy, an unpopular war, and after holding the office for the last eight years. Obama has a savvy enough campaign staff to not mess up too bad, IMO. It's a very tough road for McCain, given the usual political trends.[/QUOTE]

Many thought the same thing in 2004. I don't know what the Democratic Party will do though if they don't win this election though. I mean it's there for the taking

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;451830]Obama doesn't need issues, he's a "lightworker":

[url=http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/06/06/notes060608.DTL&type=printable]Is Obama an enlightened being? / Spiritual wise ones say: This sure ain't no ordinary politician. You buying it?[/url][/QUOTE]

Holy crap. This guy thinks he Jesus.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[quote=FRPLG;451844]Holy crap. This guy thinks he Jesus.[/quote]

People continue to tell me otherwise and say that he's the anti-christ.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

I'm definately not in the Obama=anti-christ crowd. If nothing else, the guy is a fascinating candidate.

However, we've seen this episode before. We've seen politicians who are smooth develop cult followings with little or no substance behind the following. And rarely, if ever, have the results been positive.

I don't want to hold it against Obama that he can attract the young voters to his cause by preaching a message that they feel gives them hope. Hope is good. If George Bush inspired hope in the same way Obama can, we would view his presidency very differently despite the facts and situations being identical. Totally on board with hope.

Something is really just not right about this. Maybe it's just because I associate daily with an incredibly young demographic of people. But I'm very nervous about what crazy ideas Obama could propose and have millions defend him in doing so without any sort of reason.

He's no anti-christ, but the more I hear the pro-Obama arguments, the more I realize that if he gets elected, he will never be accountable for any decision he makes. And that's scary.

I'm just free flow writing here, so maybe I'm working myself up into a frenzy over nothing. But I hear phrases like "win the war for national healthcare" followed by crazy applause, and I realize just how much power this man has. I'm probably casting my vote for McCain based on policy alone, but if Obama wins he will be the strongest U.S. president since Reagan, and FDR before him. I just hope that if he wins, he's ready to handle the job.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[quote=GTripp0012;451851]I'm definately not in the Obama=anti-christ crowd. If nothing else, the guy is a fascinating candidate.

However, we've seen this episode before. We've seen politicians who are smooth develop cult followings with little or no substance behind the following. And rarely, if ever, have the results been positive.

I don't want to hold it against Obama that he can attract the young voters to his cause by preaching a message that they feel gives them hope. Hope is good. If George Bush inspired hope in the same way Obama can, we would view his presidency very differently despite the facts and situations being identical. Totally on board with hope.

Something is really just not right about this. Maybe it's just because I associate daily with an incredibly young demographic of people. But I'm very nervous about what crazy ideas Obama could propose and have millions defend him in doing so without any sort of reason.

He's no anti-christ, but the more I hear the pro-Obama arguments, the more I realize that if he gets elected, he will never be accountable for any decision he makes. And that's scary.

I'm just free flow writing here, so maybe I'm working myself up into a frenzy over nothing. [B]But I hear phrases like "win the war for national healthcare" followed by crazy applause, and I realize just how much power this man has.[/B] I'm probably casting my vote for McCain based on policy alone, but if Obama wins he will be the strongest U.S. president since Reagan, and FDR before him. I just hope that if he wins, he's ready to handle the job.[/quote]

I'm going to digress and say that that quote reminds me of the episode of Family Guy where Lois was running for mayor and all she had to say was, "9/11" and the audience went nuts. Awesome episode.

Back to your regularly scheduled political debate.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[quote=FRPLG;451823]I think a lot of people would suggest that indeed. I realize primaries are not the time for ideas since it is very difficult to differentiate yourself from an opponent you usually stand shoulder to shoulder with but Obama has been remarkably light on ideas other than "change" in general. Given the current environment that might be enough but I find no fault with people who wonder what exactly he thinks he is going to do when he never really says other than pretty general directions.[/quote]

My only response to this is he hasn't been anymore general than John McCain or even Clinton, who recently bowed out of the race. I think he's been general when he's had to be (larger rallys) and more specific (town hall meetings) in other settings.

Obama has been specific on his designs for Universal Healthcare, as well as the differences and disagreement(s) between his plan and Senator Clinton's. That plan and how he plans to fund it is outlined in great detail on his website, and was hashed out repeatedly during the debates.

Regarding the war in Iraq, which candidate(s) have been more specifc than the other regarding troop withdrawals or their plan to stay? I know that Clinton and Obama have both supported a phased down troop withdrawl with a deadline. John McCain, whom recently said he wanted troops out by 2013, never outlined specifically what that actually looks like in terms of phased down withdrawal.

On the issue of lobbying, I haven't heard one candidate speak more specifically and forcefully than Obama about their plan to change the culture of Washington and it's ties to federal lobbyist. In fact, he's already set the tone since becoming the nominee just a few days ago. The DNC, under Obama's direction, annonced they will no longer accept donations from Washington lobbyists and PACs. That's a huge development, that's change. But somehow it has managed to fly under the radar. [URL="http://www.democrats.org/a/2008/06/democratic_part_10.php"]The Democratic Party | Democratic Party Will No Longer Accept Washington Lobbyist Donations[/URL]

The only point I'm making is after 22 televised debates, a lot of rhetoric, I would argue whether Obama or any of the other candidates, for that matter, have been particularly more vague and general than the other. I think his is highlighted more often due to his unique ability to draw record size crowds and stir emotion and excitiment among voters, perharps, since RFK.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

Decent piece by NPR on the lobbyist story

[url=http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91226631]Obama Bans DNC from Taking Lobbyists' Money : NPR[/url]

But I mean McCain-Feingold was kind of a big change wasn't it?

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[quote=70Chip;451818]Thanks for the blurb. The latest rumor is that the Republicans have video of Michell Obama railing against "whitey" at church. Tell 10 friends.[/quote]
i wasn't going to justify this with a response, but had to. this is the most ignorant thing i have seen posted on this board, ever. and that's saying alot

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[quote=dmek25;451915]i wasn't going to justify this with a response, but had to. this is the most ignorant thing i have seen posted on this board, ever. and that's saying alot[/quote]
I originally thought this was a bad take at sarcasm or a joke, but it is a rumor in the blogosphere. I'm not saying it exists, I'm just saying it's an internet rumor with specifics as to where and when the event occured. The rumor discussion has made its way onto Fox News (I know surprise, surprise).

Michelle Malkin also had comments on it and I agree with her:

[URL="http://michellemalkin.com/2008/06/03/where-is-the-purported-michelle-obama-whitey-video/"]Michelle Malkin » Where is the purported Michelle Obama “whitey” video?[/URL]

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[quote=saden1;451758]I don't think anyone can top Bush but this speech is borderline...maybe it's just me? What is he trying to say? Is he really smiling (starts at 1:30 sec)? Does anything he say line-up with his voting record?[/quote]
I think Obama has just topped Bush in terms of speaking.
[YT]ZxBX8sz3tO8[/YT]
[YT]KbpWonUzlrc[/YT]

And no I'm not doing this out of support of McCain because he is almost as bad as Obama.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[QUOTE=steveo395;452101]I think Obama has just topped Bush in terms of speaking.
[YT]ZxBX8sz3tO8[/YT]
[YT]KbpWonUzlrc[/YT]

And no I'm not doing this out of support of McCain because he is almost as bad as Obama.[/QUOTE]

These guys give about 14 speeches a day and have to talk off the top of their heads most of the time to hundreds and thousands. They are bound to screw up some and I don't think we should hold it against them.

Re: Obama Clinches Democratic Nomination
 

[quote=FRPLG;452103]These guys give about 14 speeches a day and have to talk off the top of their heads most of the time to hundreds and thousands. They are bound to screw up some and I don't think we should hold it against them.[/quote]
I completely understand that, but people are all over Bush when he does it. When Obama does it, you don't hear a thing and all you hear about is how great of a speaker he is.