re: Backup center discussion
 

[quote=GMScud;452053]That's really all I was trying to say all along. And like I said, if we have an "average" injury season, it will be far less than last season. Maybe '07 was evening out how healthy we stayed in '05 when we won 11 games (including playoffs). I wasn't trying to imply we'd be injury-free in '08 because of '07. But the Law of Averages is in our favor in the health department compared to last season.

As far as the gambler's fallacy, I guess it's a good thing I don't bet. I understand what you mean as far as probabilities are concerned. I'm not trying to take the Warpath down a road of flawed logic or anything. Trust me, I'm not that complicated.[/quote]

OK yeah I think we're on the same page. It's just the math and probabilities discussion wandered into my area of expertise, so I went apeschneed on it. My bad.

Here's to the Skins staying healthy and mauling D-linemen in 2008. Let's just pray a little harder for Rabach.

re: Backup center discussion
 

[quote=Schneed10;452056]OK yeah I think we're on the same page. It's just the math and probabilities discussion wandered into my area of expertise, so I went apeschneed on it. My bad.

Here's to the Skins staying healthy and mauling D-linemen in 2008. Let's just pray a little harder for Rabach.[/quote]

Apeschneed on it... LOL! Good stuff.

Cheers man. And yes, Rabach's health is one of the most important things for our team this year.

re: Backup center discussion
 

None of you guys mentioned the fact that Pete Kendall can play center and is most likely will be the top back-up, provided that Rhinehart works out. Right now it is Jansen because we do not know if we have a back-up guard, but the team is more comfortable with Kendall there (Buges and Cerratto said as much). Therefore, people need to stop panicking, since we will most likely sign another vet back-up as well. I wanted to sign Newberry, who was excellent with the Raiders last year, but he got picked up last week for vet min.

re: Backup center discussion
 

Angry's 5 best lineman argument makes some sense. However, though Heyer has the makings of a solid RT prospect, I don't think we can consider him in the same class as the veteran starters. Therefore, if Rabach got hurt, we would obviously play the best four linemen, and a sub.

By moving Jansen off of RT, we are opening up a potential hole on the offensive line much greater than the Center position would be. Having a good RT is more important than having a good C, and as we saw, we could lose the ability to run to one side or the other if we don't have a battle-tested tackle.

I think Schneed might be over-exaggerating the problems that Jansen would have as a Center -- If he's healthy, he should do fine, height shouldn't be an issue. But with the relative fungibility of NFL Centers, it would make more sense to have a competition and find a guy who you feel most comfortable to back up Rabach, then to stretch your team thin at the tackle position in trying to back up your Center.

Not to mention, if no one is getting reps at Center in practice besides Jansen and Rabach, this creates a really bad situation if/when Jansen goes down. Now, you have Heyer in at RT, but no one besides Rabach would even be able to handle Center in a game, and that could be disastrous.

re: Backup center discussion
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;452042]Right.

So now Heyer has secretly beaten out Jansen before training camp even starts and Jansen has been bumped over to center.

Please.

:doh:[/QUOTE]

I don't know about all that now. Heyer did a great job last year as a rookie. If something happened to Rabach then move Jansen over there and let Heyer step in at Right Tackle for a little bit. I don't think Heyer has taken the job from Jansen, but he's more than capable of playing it if something happened.

Heck, if this did happen I could see Buges running 50 gut a few more times a game. :)

re: Backup center discussion
 

[quote=GTripp0012;452126]Angry's 5 best lineman argument makes some sense. However, though Heyer has the makings of a solid RT prospect, I don't think we can consider him in the same class as the veteran starters. Therefore, if Rabach got hurt, we would obviously play the best four linemen, and a sub.

By moving Jansen off of RT, we are opening up a potential hole on the offensive line much greater than the Center position would be. Having a good RT is more important than having a good C, and as we saw, we could lose the ability to run to one side or the other if we don't have a battle-tested tackle.

I think Schneed might be over-exaggerating the problems that Jansen would have as a Center -- If he's healthy, he should do fine, height shouldn't be an issue. But with the relative fungibility of NFL Centers, it would make more sense to have a competition and find a guy who you feel most comfortable to back up Rabach, then to stretch your team thin at the tackle position in trying to back up your Center.

Not to mention, if no one is getting reps at Center in practice besides Jansen and Rabach, this creates a really bad situation if/when Jansen goes down. Now, you have Heyer in at RT, but no one besides Rabach would even be able to handle Center in a game, and that could be disastrous.[/quote]
Didn't we have a game either last year or the prior year where our C went down and the othe teamd D just expoled right through the middle of our line? Buge said on the Riggo show that heyer is playing both RT & LT and has really improved over the past year. From the way he was talking Heyer will play a bigger role in the ine this year and has come into camp around 330 and is probably the strongest man on the team. I hope this is true because it will have been a great find for our team.

re: Backup center discussion
 

I'd much prefer to see Crummey or Rinehart get those 2nd team reps. I really feel that both will have a significant place as O-line starters eventually. Crummey was a great FA signing out of Maryland. He might have been drafted in the 2nd or 3rd round had he not broken his leg last season.

re: Backup center discussion
 

I think that right now the reasoning behind moving Jansen to center would be that we could do that, substitute Heyer or Wade at tackle and still have 5 guys with starting experience, for the Redskins playing, on the o-line.

Bugel knows what help Heyer and Wade need when they are in because of last year. He sees the best o-line talent at the tackle position (Jansen, Wade, Heyer, Fabini, Reinhart). Looks like he wants to spend all Reinharts time being developed for guard, Jansen is the best option at this time. Plus Jansen is stuck here for a whilewith his salary and if his abailties fall off at tackle, he needs to be able to contribute as a "super-backup" at multiple positions.

I still say we sign a back-up center before the season starts.

re: Backup center discussion
 

someone earlier mentioned L. bentley. He's back in camp w/the browns:

[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3435161]ESPN - Bentley passes physical, conditioning test on road to rejoining Browns - NFL[/url]

re: Backup center discussion
 

[QUOTE=freddyg12;452221]someone earlier mentioned L. bentley. He's back in camp w/the browns:

[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3435161]ESPN - Bentley passes physical, conditioning test on road to rejoining Browns - NFL[/url][/QUOTE]

Good to hear, he was a great player before he got hurt.

re: Backup center discussion
 

[quote=freddyg12;452221]someone earlier mentioned L. bentley. He's back in camp w/the browns:

[URL="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3435161"]ESPN - Bentley passes physical, conditioning test on road to rejoining Browns - NFL[/URL][/quote]The Browns granted Bentley's request and released him today. We should try to sign him for the vet minimum and let him compete against Rabach.

re: Backup center discussion
 

I agree. that would be a great signing for the right price!!!

re: Backup center discussion
 

[QUOTE=SouperMeister;452440]The Browns granted Bentley's request and released him today. We should try to sign him for the vet minimum and let him compete against Rabach.[/QUOTE]

[url=http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d808c7dce&template=with-video&confirm=true]Agent says veteran Bentley released by Browns[/url]

There's a link. It would be a great idea to sign him for a vet minimum, he is coming off an injury but he passed a physical.

re: Backup center discussion
 

[quote=SeanTaylor21;452456][URL="http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d808c7dce&template=with-video&confirm=true"]Agent says veteran Bentley released by Browns[/URL]

There's a link. It would be a great idea to sign him for a vet minimum, he is coming off an injury but he passed a physical.[/quote]

Here we go....why should I be so surprised another great 'vet minimum' pickup custom fit just for the Skins. :doh:

Did the guy even play last year....? I thought there was even something about a staff infection. I think we have learned something....then again I have to remember where I'm at.

Do ya think he got cut for a reason? He's a high risk injury problem, just maybe OR just can't play?

re: Backup center discussion
 

Before he was injured, Bentley was one of the top two or three centers in the league. I don't know what his current condition is - it's probably a safe bet that he is not near that form now. I would still sign him for a no SB contract. Center is one of our areas of need and, if he can be had for the right price, he is probably worth a shot. Of course, it all depends on his physical condition. He may just be done. It happens. But, given his level of play pre-injury, and the Skins need at center, this is a "vet min" signing that would actually make sense - a' la Erasmus. Hell, he may not even be available for vet min.

re: Backup center discussion
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan_nn;452460]Here we go....why should I be so surprised another great 'vet minimum' pickup custom fit just for the Skins. :doh:

Did the guy even play last year....? I thought there was even something about a staff infection. I think we have learned something....then again I have to remember where I'm at.

Do ya think he got cut for a reason? He's a high risk injury problem, just maybe OR just can't play?[/QUOTE]

He was a pro bowl player before he got hurt, he got cut because he asked, not because he sucks.

re: Backup center discussion
 

[quote=SeanTaylor21;452463]He was a pro bowl player before he got hurt, he got cut because he asked, not because he sucks.[/quote]

Well I didn't read the article BUT if hes dumb enough to ask to be cut. What does that usually tell ya, there was some other player BETTER than him getting ready to take his job...right? Or he sucks NOW (don't care how good he used to be) and/ or can't play anywhere if at all near where he could prior to injury.

re: Backup center discussion
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan_nn;452466]Well I didn't read the article BUT if hes dumb enough to ask to be cut. What does that usually tell ya, there was some other player BETTER than him getting ready to take his job...right? Or he sucks NOW (don't care how good he used to be) and/ or can't play anywhere if at all near where he could prior to injury.[/QUOTE]

I listened to an interview with LeCharles on Sirius this afternoon. He made it sound as if it was a personal thing, something about not happy with how he was treated in CLV. Wouldn't get into it too much, just to say that he wasn't pleased and didn't feel comfortable so he asked to be cut. The worrisome part to me is that the Browns didn't think twice about granting his request.

re: Backup center discussion
 

I would like to have Bentley, but I know he is drawing a lot of interest, (according to Adam Schefter) so he's probably want to go to a team where he has a better chance of starting.

re: Backup center discussion
 

He obviously doesn't want to be a backup, which he would be here in Washington. I'd love to have him, I just don't know how it would work out. He was one of the top 2 or 3 centers in football when he got hurt in training camp in 06.

re: Backup center discussion
 

I thought I heard that one reason Bentley asked for his release is that he wants to play Guard.

re: Backup center discussion
 

PFT.com

BENTLEY TO MINNESOTA?
Posted by Mike Florio on June 11, 2008, 9:59 p.m.

I had a looong day with the law gig and an even longer night at the little league field, and I’m getting a chance right now to take a peek at the extremely fine pinch-hitting efforts of MDS and Josh Alper.

And, of course, I’m exercising my prerogative to chime in with my own half-assed musings regarding matters on which they’ve already written.

This first one isn’t a scoop, just semi-educated speculation. Center LeCharles Bentley, who was released earlier on Wednesday by the Browns, could be the next starting center of the Minnesota Vikings.

Before going any farther with this one, I need to be clear. It would be a huge mistake for the Vikings to dump Matt Birk in favor of Bentley. Bentley is damaged goods, and Birk is a bona fide leader in the locker room.

With that said, it’s fairly obvious that the Vikings are planning for life without Birk, who is signed through 2008. And the best way to make the transition would be to bring in Bentley right now, sign him to an incentive-heavy deal with per-game roster bonuses, and give him a chance via training camp and the preseason to make Birk and his $5.32 million salary an unnecessary luxury for 2008.

Here are the two other factors that have caused me to connect the dots in this specific way. First, Bentley’s agents surely had something else lined up before asking out of Cleveland. Otherwise, Bentley would be using the remainder of the offseason workouts in Cleveland to persuade another team to become interested. Remember this — Bentley’s agents, as legend has it, had a pre-free agency deal lined up with the Eagles, on which Bentley and his agents, as legend has it, reneged before signing with the Browns. There’s no reason to think that Bentley’s agents haven’t done the same thing in this specific case.

Second, though Vikings coach Brad Childress was no longer with the Eagles when the team made a run at Bentley, Childress had graduated to the Vikings not long before the 2006 free agency period opened. And that means that the Eagles had likely focused on Bentley before Childress left, and that Childress was privy to the internal reasoning that prompted the Eagles to decide that it would be prudent to pursue him.

Again, it’s all speculation. But at the same time, it makes sense. The Vikings would love to find the long-term successor to Birk, and Bentley (if healthy) gives them a very viable option.

re: Backup center discussion
 

[quote=SmootSmack;452476]I thought I heard that one reason Bentley asked for his release is that he wants to play Guard.[/quote]

Wow. In that case I'd REALLY like to have him. If he's healthy he could push Kendall for time this year, and he'd be a great insurance policy for Rabach. IMO it would make sense to make a move for him, albeit an incentive-laden one given the injuries. But his body is a young 28 since he basically hasn't played for two years.

re: Backup center discussion
 

[QUOTE=steveo395;452471]I would like to have Bentley, but I know he is drawing a lot of interest, (according to Adam Schefter) so he's probably want to go to a team where he has a better chance of starting.[/QUOTE]He WOULD have a chance of starting here, but not at Center. Kendall is on a deal with no bonus, and if Bentley passed a physical, he could be a clear upgrade at that position for us. Plus, it would push Rabach at Center also AND give us a better backup C solution than Jansen.

I would pay him up to 2 million per season to sign here, or exactly what Rabach is making. If someone breaks the bank for him and he signs elsewhere, then whatever. But like DJ Hackett, it doesn't hurt to try to bring him in.

re: Backup center discussion
 

[quote=skinsfan_nn;452477]PFT.com

BENTLEY TO MINNESOTA?
Posted by Mike Florio on June 11, 2008, 9:59 p.m.

I had a looong day with the law gig and an even longer night at the little league field, and I’m getting a chance right now to take a peek at the extremely fine pinch-hitting efforts of MDS and Josh Alper.

And, of course, I’m exercising my prerogative to chime in with my own half-assed musings regarding matters on which they’ve already written.

This first one isn’t a scoop, just semi-educated speculation. Center LeCharles Bentley, who was released earlier on Wednesday by the Browns, could be the next starting center of the Minnesota Vikings.

Before going any farther with this one, I need to be clear. It would be a huge mistake for the Vikings to dump Matt Birk in favor of Bentley. Bentley is damaged goods, and Birk is a bona fide leader in the locker room.

With that said, it’s fairly obvious that the Vikings are planning for life without Birk, who is signed through 2008. And the best way to make the transition would be to bring in Bentley right now, sign him to an incentive-heavy deal with per-game roster bonuses, and give him a chance via training camp and the preseason to make Birk and his $5.32 million salary an unnecessary luxury for 2008.

Here are the two other factors that have caused me to connect the dots in this specific way. First, Bentley’s agents surely had something else lined up before asking out of Cleveland. Otherwise, Bentley would be using the remainder of the offseason workouts in Cleveland to persuade another team to become interested. Remember this — Bentley’s agents, as legend has it, had a pre-free agency deal lined up with the Eagles, on which Bentley and his agents, as legend has it, reneged before signing with the Browns. There’s no reason to think that Bentley’s agents haven’t done the same thing in this specific case.

Second, though Vikings coach Brad Childress was no longer with the Eagles when the team made a run at Bentley, Childress had graduated to the Vikings not long before the 2006 free agency period opened. And that means that the Eagles had likely focused on Bentley before Childress left, and that Childress was privy to the internal reasoning that prompted the Eagles to decide that it would be prudent to pursue him.

Again, it’s all speculation. But at the same time, it makes sense. The Vikings would love to find the long-term successor to Birk, and Bentley (if healthy) gives them a very viable option.[/quote]
If this stuff is true sounds like the best bet is to let the Vikes take Bentley and wait for Birk to get cut then make a run at him.

re: Backup center discussion
 

ahhhh soooo

the prophecy has come to fruition

re: Backup center discussion
 

Lecharles Bentley pre-injury was very, very good. I'd like to get this guy.

re: Backup center discussion
 

Yeah he was very good before he had 2 knee surgeries.

He's worth looking at but he's probably going to want to go to a team where he can compete for a starting job. I don't think the starting center job here is up for grabs.

re: Backup center discussion
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;452506]Yeah he was very good before he had 2 knee surgeries.

He's worth looking at but he's probably going to want to go to a team where he can compete for a starting job. I don't think the starting center job here is up for grabs.[/QUOTE]

He "was" good before his injuries, but what can he do now. I don't think he is worth the risk. I say give Rhinehard and Crummey the chance to win a job.

re: Backup center discussion
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;452506]I don't think the starting center job here is up for grabs.[/QUOTE]

if we can get bentley, it should be. i like casey and i think he could compete with bentley, if not beat him outright. but when casey got hurt this year we had nobody. and now jansen is supposed to back him up??? what if they both get hurt? again.


[QUOTE=Crash;452506]He "was" good before his injuries, but what can he do now. I don't think he is worth the risk. I say give Rhinehard and Crummey the chance to win a job.[/QUOTE]

i hope they both do. but neither of them are centers.

re: Backup center discussion
 

My take is why create a controversy when there's no glaring need at center?

We need a backup, not another starter.

Re: Backup center discussion
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;452519]My take is why create a controversy when there's no glaring need at center?

We need a backup, not another starter.[/QUOTE]

AGREED!!!

Re: Backup center discussion
 

[quote=Mattyk72;452519]My take is why create a controversy when there's no glaring need at center?

We need a backup, not another starter.[/quote]

What I'm most frustrated about is that we didn't take either Justice or Pollack in the draft. Much like we did with receivers, the Colts took both of the best centers available. It's definitely a spot we could have taken a center at without much problem. We still would have gotten Brooks.

Re: Backup center discussion
 

[quote=Mattyk72;452519]My take is why create a controversy when there's no glaring need at center?

We need a backup, not another starter.[/quote]

Except for the fact that he's had knee injuries and everyone against taking him is saying he's damaged goods. Damaged goods screams back up role. So....sign him as a back up and tell him with coach Bugels help he may challenge for the Guard or Center spot. Either way it pushes our current players, puts the best man on the field, allows him to challenge for a starting role with a team (cough,cough) who is making a run to go deeper into the play offs, and he gets the best trainer in Buges. Buges has a way of taking people who have been written off by teams and making them Pro Bowl players...ie; Samuels. am I wrong?

I don't know the guy well enough to make an informed decision but....if we need O-lineman then it would be crazy for the HC and the owner to not take a look at him and see if they can under cut the other competition out there for a position everyone knows we need more people at.

It never hurts to make a phone call and see what he's requesting. All we as fans get are the rumors. and who knows maybe in his mind he's a starter and wants to play. good for him. can't hurt to call and see what the asking price is and if it's with in reason see if he would like to be a skin training with the best.

Re: Backup center discussion
 

I'm all for giving this guy a look as a backup don't get me wrong. If the price is right and he understands the role he would be coming in to that's great. I just don't agree with giving him starter type of money and opening up a competition at center.

Re: Backup center discussion
 

I'm not thinking this is huge. If the C goes down, god forbid and someone sub-par has to stepin we can just put big Mike Sellers in and give them some support until the blitzing stops. We'll be fine.

Re: Backup center discussion
 

samuels was the #3 pick in the 2000 draft... i dont think he was ever "written off"... buges is a good coach but no one can do much with "damaged goods", but hell id take bentley for the right price.

Re: Backup center discussion
 

Lecharles Bentley pre-injury was very, very good. Thats why he got that huge contract. Then got hurt on the first day of camp and never played a down for the Browns. A vet minimum contract would be all I would be willing to risk. With two knee injuries I don't think he will ever get back to form again. The reason he asked to be released was so he could start. The browns had already gone in another direction. I don't think he would sign here just to be a backup.

Re: Backup center discussion
 

[quote=RedskinMike;452590]Lecharles Bentley pre-injury was very, very good. Thats why he got that huge contract. Then got hurt on the first day of camp and never played a down for the Browns. [B]A vet minimum contract would be all I would be willing to risk[/B]. With two knee injuries I don't think he will ever get back to form again. The reason he asked to be released was so he could start. The browns had already gone in another direction. I don't think he would sign here just to be a backup.[/quote]

Finally! I was wondering when someone would say it. :)

Re: Backup center discussion
 

[quote=Mattyk72;452519]My take is why create a controversy when there's no glaring need at center?

We need a backup, not another starter.[/quote]

I agree that Rabach is the unquestioned starter at C, regardless of who we bring in. Casey is quietly one of the best, most consistent centers in the league, and he's great in the locker room.

SmootSmack mentioned he heard part of the reason LeCharles asked out of Cleveland was because he wanted to play guard. Pete Kendall is 35. He's still good, but if Bentley really wants a shot at guard we'd be foolish not to give him a look. SS, any confirmation on this? I couldn't find anything about it.

Also, I have a question- he still has 4 years left on a 6 yr $36M deal. What happens to that since he was released? Does the team who picks him up have to pick up his contract as well? If so, I imagine he'll have to restructure that deal to find work....