Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=Mattyk72;520163]I saw enough of Aikman to tell me he was a damn good QB and much better than his numbers indicated. A bust? I really doubt that.[/quote]Fair enough, but his numbers were really, really, really bad in the years where the Cowboys weren't the greatest 21 player roster ever assembled.

I mentioned this above, but his career completion percentage is 61.5, which is very, very good for his era. But, that's obviously a misleading figure because he never, ever once got within 2 points of that on either side.

Without the greatest Cowboys line ever, and having Irvin in his prime, and Smith in his, Aikman is something like a 56% passer. It's totally not fair to Aikman to take away his prime years and grade him, obviously, but it's clear on a lesser team that not only is he not in the hall of fame, but he likely fails to make the pro bowl.

I don't actually know how bad the Cowboys were from 1997-1999 or from 1988-1989. I suspect they weren't good at all, but whether they were horrible, or just not playoff caliber, it probably would make a big difference in how we (I) perceive Aikman today.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

Come on people McNabb PUKED on his center in the biggest game in sports and that by itself excludes him.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=44ever;520164]so who get HOF? Do you have to be equal or better than Marino???
Does P. Manning get in? Is he better than Marino?[/quote]No, of course not. Being one of the very best players of your era at your postion is the criteria I always use.

Compared to Young, and later Favre, Aikman doesn't really hold up in the production category. But the three Super Bowl are automatic.

I just wish they would put the whole TEAM into the hall of fame. Why exclude some players who played on a three time super bowl champion? They all won it together, why aren't they all recognized together?

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=GTripp0012;520169]Fair enough, but his numbers were really, really, really bad in the years where the Cowboys weren't the greatest 21 player roster ever assembled.

I mentioned this above, but his career completion percentage is 61.5, which is very, very good for his era. But, that's obviously a misleading figure because he never, ever once got within 2 points of that on either side.

Without the greatest Cowboys line ever, and having Irvin in his prime, and Smith in his, Aikman is something like a 56% passer. It's totally not fair to Aikman to take away his prime years and grade him, obviously, but it's clear on a lesser team that not only is he not in the hall of fame, but he likely fails to make the pro bowl.

I don't actually know how bad the Cowboys were from 1997-1999 or from 1988-1989. I suspect they weren't good at all, but whether they were horrible, or just not playoff caliber, it probably would make a big difference in how we (I) perceive Aikman today.[/quote]
Well if we took away the Hogs the Skins would probably have never won a SB so that point is pretty usless.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=firstdown;520172]Well if we took away the Hogs the Skins would probably have never won a SB so that point is pretty usless.[/quote]Well, we also never put Joe Theismann/Doug Williams/Mark Rypien into the hall of fame.

Which is sort of the whole point.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

BTW, what are we talking here? "First ballot HoF", "will get in few years after eligibility", "will get in eventually?"

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=saden1;520178]BTW, what are we talking here? "First ballot HoF", "will get in few years after eligibility", "will get in eventually?"[/quote]I think the assumption with players that 'deserve' it are players that should get in at some point, but that is an important distinction.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=GTripp0012;520173]Well, we also never put Joe Theismann/Doug Williams/Mark Rypien into the hall of fame.

Which is sort of the whole point.[/quote]
I think we are talking about two different things and I'm not going to go back and read so. Have A Nice Night I'm Going Home.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=saden1;520178]BTW, what are we talking here? "First ballot HoF", "will get in few years after eligibility", "will get in eventually?"[/quote]

Hadn't really thought about that. Pick your poison.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

Warner has a great chance because he not only won a Superbowl (and counting) but also captured two MVP titles, which puts him in very elite company (I know Manning and Favre are the only players ever to win more than two). I think a Superbowl appearance this year would cement a spot in Canton for Warner.

McNabb is more difficult to evaluate. He captained some excellent teams and put up huge numbers but he choked in a lot of big games. He was never at any point in his career considered one of the best 3-5 players or even QB's in the league and, while he dominated QB play in the NFC for four years or so, it was during a time when the NFC was considered to be vastly inferior to the AFC. Throw in a 3 interception performance in the Superbowl - as well as a nerve-induced on field vomiting - and you have a borderline guy.

I think this year is huge for him. Nevertheless, McNabb is the kind of guy who could get in in 20 years even if he doesn't get in right away, because his numbers are going to age well.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=Mattyk72;520148]Aikman's numbers don't tell the whole story. He could have been a gunslinger in an offense that wasn't so run heavy. And at the end of the day 3 rings gets him in easily.[/quote]

That's the difference between the Air Coryell and WCO, one is run heavy and the other pass heavy. Aikman was in the run heavy offense and so was Art Monk and unfortunately that's what delayed his entrance into the HOF because of the lack of "numbers". My feeling is that having "nice stats" is what gets people into the HOF which is a bunch of shit. If McNabb gets in, so should Theismann.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=Meks;520084]mcnabb is not marino.[/quote]

Doesn't have to be. Didn't Art Monk teach us that?

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;520207]That's the difference between the Air Coryell and WCO, one is run heavy and the other pass heavy. Aikman was in the run heavy offense and so was Art Monk and unfortunately that's what delayed his entrance into the HOF because of the lack of "numbers". My feeling is that having "nice stats" is what gets people into the HOF which is a bunch of shit. If McNabb gets in, [B]so should Theismann[/B].[/quote]

My thoughts exactly! McNabb has been no better than Theismann...in my opinion. Imagine if Gibbs would have had Theismann longer. Warner's thumb injury definitely took years from him...otherwise I think he'd be a lock.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=djnemo65;520196]Warner has a great chance because he not only won a Superbowl (and counting) but also captured two MVP titles, which puts him in very elite company (I know Manning and Favre are the only players ever to win more than two). I think a Superbowl appearance this year would cement a spot in Canton for Warner.

McNabb is more difficult to evaluate. He captained some excellent teams and put up huge numbers but he choked in a lot of big games. He was never at any point in his career considered one of the best 3-5 players or even QB's in the league and, while he dominated QB play in the NFC for four years or so, it was during a time when the NFC was considered to be vastly inferior to the AFC. Throw in a 3 interception performance in the Super bowl - as well as a nerve-induced on field vomiting - and you have a borderline guy.

I think this year is huge for him. Nevertheless, McNabb is the kind of guy who could get in in 20 years even if he doesn't get in right away, because his numbers are going to age well.[/quote]


Oh so now a HOFer can't have a upset stomach?
J/k :)

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

Yes, they're both worthy, on and off the field. I'd like to see McNabb in the HOF. He's a good guy, a good player, and even with no SB win, he's beaten back the nay-sayers.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=Meks;520068]i dont think mcnabb is HOF at all.[/quote]


I agree, Warner only if they win the big game.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

If Warner wins another SB he should absolutely get in first ballot. Don't forget that he will have a shorter NFL career because of his time in the NFLE and AFL.
McNabb is a great qb but not HOF.
Somebody mentioned Brady as a current HOF lock. I don't think he's in yet. If his knee doesn't heal enough for him to play in 09 or he comes back not as good then he might get forgotten at HOF induction time.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

Warner hasn't had a short career, he's been in the NFL 11 years now.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

Don't kid yourself, Brady is already a pretty sure thing. He's got 3 rings, 2 SB MVPs, 1 league MVP, and his numbers are impressive. 26,446 passing yards, 197 TDs, 86 INTs, 63% completions, 92.9 rating.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=Giantone;520253]I agree, Warner only if they win the big game.[/quote]

Of course you would say that. Mcnabb and co. just sent youre Giants packin.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;520207]That's the difference between the Air Coryell and WCO, one is run heavy and the other pass heavy. Aikman was in the run heavy offense and so was Art Monk and unfortunately that's what delayed his entrance into the HOF because of the lack of "numbers". My feeling is that having "nice stats" is what gets people into the HOF which is a bunch of shit. [B]If McNabb gets in, so should Theismann[/B].[/quote]

Theismann in the HOF?? No way. IMO I think McNabb is a little better than JT. JT was a full time starter for about 7 1/2 to 8 years and 4 of those years he was about as average as it gets. And during those average years we never made the playoffs, he never made the team better or could not carry a team like McNabb does. 82, 83 and 84 were his best years and 3 good seasons doesn't get you in. In 85 when he broke his leg he was playing pretty bad and Gibbs refused to bench him. But maybe he'd get more of a look if we win that 83 SB cause he was the QB of one of the best offenses of all time.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=Mattyk72;520163]I saw enough of Aikman to tell me he was a damn good QB and much better than his numbers indicated. A bust? I really doubt that.[/quote]

Aikman's first couple of years were pathetic and it wasn't until they drafted Smith and had probably the best offensive line ever in the NFL and Irvin that he put up just decent numbers. His best year over his carreer in most any category doesn't even break the top 100 all time. And his last 4 years when the team started breaking up were very average also. Take him off the Cowboys and put him in Detroit and my guess is most people wouldn't even know who he is today.

Of all teams we should know that you can make a QB look good with a great line and team around him. We have done it a few times.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=Mattyk72;520274]Don't kid yourself, Brady is already a pretty sure thing. He's got 3 rings, 2 SB MVPs, 1 league MVP, and his numbers are impressive. 26,446 passing yards, 197 TDs, 86 INTs, 63% completions, 92.9 rating.[/quote]

I don't think there will much of a discussion in the selection committee regarding whether he gets in. He's as unanimous no questions asked HoF and rightly so.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=Mattyk72;520272]Warner hasn't had a short career, he's been in the NFL 11 years now.[/quote]

Problem with Warner is that he has had some awful years, not average but awful.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=saden1;520308]Problem with Warner is that he has had some awful years, not average but awful.[/quote]

Ok, when exactly?

The only awful season I see is 2002 but he only played in 7 games.

[url=http://www.nfl.com/players/kurtwarner/careerstats?id=WAR492511]Kurt Warner: Career Stats[/url]

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=Jake2008;520303]Aikman's first couple of years were pathetic and it wasn't until they drafted Smith and had probably the best offensive line ever in the NFL and Irvin that he put up just decent numbers. His best year over his carreer in most any category doesn't even break the top 100 all time. And his last 4 years when the team started breaking up were very average also. Take him off the Cowboys and put him in Detroit and my guess is most people wouldn't even know who he is today.

Of all teams we should know that you can make a QB look good with a great line and team around him. We have done it a few times.[/quote]

Meh, you can play that game with just about anyone. What would Montana and Young have been without Rice and those talented 49ers teams?

You can't pick and choose to take away this or that. His resume is what it is, a Hall of Fame one. There's no debating it at this point because he's already in.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

I would not say McNabb is a HOF'er.
If you had to pick a QB to lead your team in the superbowl, Would you Pick Aikmen, Young or McNabb?
I doubt anyone here would start McNabb over those two guys.

If you looked at current NFL QBs, Which one would you want to start for your team in the Superbowl?
My top 5 is:
1: Brady
2: Peyton Manning
3: Warner
4: Brees
5: Favre

McNabb doesn't crack the top 5 list of current best QBs.

Warner: Yes. Superbowl ring, MVPs and Had another MVP type year this year.
The greatest show on turf wasn't so great without him. Leinart couldn't do anything with Fitz and Boldin last year. There's more too his game than just being the beneficiary of great WRs.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=jamf;520312]I would not say McNabb is a HOF'er.
If you had to pick a QB to lead your team in the superbowl, Would you Pick Aikmen, Young or McNabb?
I doubt anyone here would start McNabb over those two guys.

If you looked at current NFL QBs, Which one would you want to start for your team in the Superbowl?
My top 5 is:
1: Brady
2: Peyton Manning
3: Warner
4: Brees
5: Favre

McNabb doesn't crack the top 5 list of current best QBs.

Warner: Yes. Superbowl ring, MVPs and Had another MVP type year this year.
The greatest show on turf wasn't so great without him. Leinart couldn't do anything with Fitz and Boldin last year. There's more too his game than just being the beneficiary of great WRs.[/quote]

Did you watch Favre this year? Dude was garbage after October. How you have an '08 legit top 5 without Rivers is highly questionable as well. Either way, it's not a question of is he the best right now, but over the span of his career and McNabb has consistently been a winner and productive.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

Championships are only one part of the equation here. If they were a litmus test, then Sonny Jurgensen would not be in the HoF. His only brush with a championship team came as a benchwarmer with the 1960 Philadelphia Eagles. He had a losing record as a starting QB for his career.

Does anyone here think that Theisman or Williams or Rypien was a better QB than Jurgensen because those three were on Super Bowl winners and Jurgensen was not? If you do, that would indicate to me that one of two things is going on here:


1. You never saw Sonny Jurgensen play football - - or - -

2. You are living in a delusion.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=Paintrain;520315]Did you watch Favre this year? Dude was garbage after October. How you have an '08 legit top 5 without Rivers is highly questionable as well. Either way, it's not a question of is he the best right now, but over the span of his career and McNabb has consistently been a winner and productive.[/quote]
The key point is which QB I want to start a SuperBowl. I did consider Rivers and he had a much better year than Favre but I would rather have Favre in a SB Game. It was a tossup but I wouldn't feel comfortable with Rivers just yet.


BTW, Colt Brennen was my 6th choice :) JK.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=Mattyk72;520310]Meh, you can play that game with just about anyone. What would Montana and Young have been without Rice and those talented 49ers teams?

You can't pick and choose to take away this or that. His resume is what it is, a Hall of Fame one. There's no debating it at this point because he's already in.[/quote]

I would debate it........call me a hater, but he's overated! :)

He had a wide reciever that could almost always push off and get open.

He also had a really good offensive line. If he had wanted too he could have put the football on the ground and counted to ten before throwing a pass!

Plus, he's the reason why we got that infamous tuck rule now! You know from that game back in the '92 season...........I think it was in '92. When Irvin failed to push off off Darrell Green so Aikman was forced to 'tuck' the football; then one of our guys knocks it out of his hands. Emmitt picked up it then fumbled it too. One of our guys jumped on it and we won......................you remember what I'm talking about right? Just for that dumb rule alone he shouldn't have ever gotten in!

Last but not least........he can't even take a hit! I know Arrington leveled him, but still! HOFer's are supposed to be able to get up from those!

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

Warner is indeed a HOF'er, but I'm still unsure about McNabb. If Donovan wins a SB this season, then maybe he has a slim chance.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=jamf;520319]The key point is which QB I want to start a SuperBowl. I did consider Rivers and he had a much better year than Favre but I would rather have Favre in a SB Game. It was a tossup but I wouldn't feel comfortable with Rivers just yet.


BTW, Colt Brennen was my 6th choice :) JK.[/quote]


Rivers, LOL..good one!:food-smil

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=Meks;520084]mcnabb is not marino.[/quote]


Meaning what!!! be honest in what way, hell someone should ask you what you mean, cause DM numbers are better than alot of HOF.... why isnt he???

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=Mattyk72;520309]Ok, when exactly?

The only awful season I see is 2002 but he only played in 7 games.

[URL="http://www.nfl.com/players/kurtwarner/careerstats?id=WAR492511"]Kurt Warner: Career Stats[/URL][/quote]

We're talking HoF here so you can include any year where he didn't play much or the numbers were poor by most standards.

2002 (started 0-3 and threw 7 INTs and 1 TD...he injured his finger).
2003 (was replaced by Bulger after fumbling six times in the home opener).
2004 (played 10 games, 5-4 record with 6 TDs and 4 INTs...was replaced by manning due to poor performance).
2005 (played 10 games, 2-8 record with 11 TDs and 9 INTs).
2006 (played 7 games, with a 1-4 record 6TDs and 5 INTs and poor play he was once again replaced by Leinart).


I am now more than ever convinced that he doesn't deserve to be in the HoF. If Warner gets in I think Terrell Davis should also get in.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=Paintrain;520315]Did you watch Favre [B]this year[/B]? Dude was garbage after October. How you have an '08 legit top 5 without Rivers is highly questionable as well. Either way, it's not a question of is he the best right now, but over the span of his career and McNabb has consistently been a winner and productive.[/quote]

HoF compasses an entire career, granted Favre should've retired...but for the most part of his career, he was a great QB.

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=skinsfan69;520284]Theismann in the HOF?? No way. IMO I think McNabb is a little better than JT. JT was a full time starter for about 7 1/2 to 8 years and 4 of those years he was about as average as it gets. And during those average years we never made the playoffs, he never made the team better or could not carry a team like McNabb does. 82, 83 and 84 were his best years and 3 good seasons doesn't get you in. In 85 when he broke his leg he was playing pretty bad and Gibbs refused to bench him. But maybe he'd get more of a look if we win that 83 SB cause he was the QB of one of the best offenses of all time.[/quote]

Let's see Joey T. played in 2 SB, won 1 lost 1, was league MVP the year they lost to the Raiders (1983-4 season) and was the QB of a record scoring team which broke the all time record at the time. Plus Joey T. returned punts :).

What has McNabb done besides good stats, 1 SB (3 int's) many playoff loses, no league MVP (runner up 1 year).

Re: McNabb, Warner, and the Hall of Fame
 

[quote=Miller101;520337]I would debate it........call me a hater, but he's overated! :)

He had a wide reciever that could almost always push off and get open.

He also had a really good offensive line. If he had wanted too he could have put the football on the ground and counted to ten before throwing a pass!

Plus, he's the reason why we got that infamous tuck rule now! You know from that game back in the '92 season...........I think it was in '92. When Irvin failed to push off off Darrell Green so Aikman was forced to 'tuck' the football; then one of our guys knocks it out of his hands. Emmitt picked up it then fumbled it too. One of our guys jumped on it and we won......................you remember what I'm talking about right? Just for that dumb rule alone he shouldn't have ever gotten in!

[B]Last but not least........he can't even take a hit! I know Arrington leveled him, but still! HOFer's are supposed to be able to get up from those[/B]![/quote]

You're kidding right?

Aikman was one of the toughest QBs to play the game. He routinely took some wicked shots and always got back up. His first few years before that OL was built up he got rocked on a weekly basis and had countless concussions over the course of his career.

Debate all you want whether he's a Hall of Famer or not, but one thing that shouldn't be debated is the guy's toughness. He was as tough as they come. By the time Arrington took him out he was a light breeze away from retiring.