re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;525250]I do see the big picture, which is why I want to move Campbell now.

You assume Campbell has the potential to become a franchise WCO quarterback. Everyone in the NFL was ridiculing the skins for bringing in Zorn last year because everyone realized that Campbell is a horrible fit for the offense Zorn would want to run. Dragging this thing out with Campbell is going to get us nowhere. We'll have a serviceable QB for a year, maybe two, but then we'll have to let him walk as a free agent and receive no compensation in return. Campbells trade value will never be higher than it is now. he's worth more to us as a 2nd round pick than he is as a 1-2 year starter; especially when we could bring in Leftwich (who couldnt be any worse) and have a 2nd round pick to use on a lineman.[/quote]No one with any credibility was saying anything about the Zorn hire outside of "well, they ran a solid process, so we'll see if they were right".

Now, if I go out on a limb and pretend you are right: If we find someone willing to deal a 2nd rounder for Campbell, that's a pretty good indication that we missed something in his valuation, right? Matt Schaub was worth two second rounders, and that was a buyers market based mostly on his prospects, not his production.

If we shop Campbell, how are other teams supposed to value him? We don't have a QB on our roster who can handle the position currently, so we would be right back in the free agent market (Where Leftwich is as good a solution as any). If it's a sellers market, and no buyers are willing to throw in more than a second rounder, I'd tell them to get lost.

The undertone to your argument is that Campbell's eventual failure in Zorn's offense is inevitable, but you haven't defended that with anything but hearsay and speculation. Lots of people on this fourm (myself included) do disagree with the premise that you have presented, citing measurable evidence such as improved QB rating and pass efficiency in 2008. While it's theoretically possible that you are right, the "lots of people will disagree with me" angle just isn't all that convincing.

Your proposal is another 2nd round pick in trade for a ton of unnecessary offensive turnover, at the most fundamental positions on the team plus tons of unquantifiable scouting uncertainties that come with the change. Is it worth it? Maybe, but it seems like a lot of accounting work just to prove we might be able to break even.

------------

P.S. Past work I've done on this fourm and on my blog has estimated (roughly) that the average expectation for a 2nd round pick is somewhere between 2-3 wins (over replacement) over the life of a rookie contract. That's roughly Campbell's 2008 value alone, depending on whose metrics you deal with.

While a rough analysis is certainly not a be all end all, it's a tough, tough mountain to climb to prove that making Byron Leftwich the Skins starting QB right now is the best move for the Washington Redskins.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

Yeah, well, that "slow relaese" burned our defense!!

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;525247]Unless someone wants to watch every QBs eyes every play and then compare how many times Campbell stares down vs others, of course it cant be backed up by evidence... [B]but the fact still remains that Campbell almost always stares down his guy.[/B][/quote]While I do admire your ability to look at both sides here, you still have to leave this opinion out of the debate because 1) It IS in dispute and 2) it simply can't be proven, or even supported by anything.

You're best off moving forward without this claim, I think.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

While I don't agree with everything BHA posts, I do enjoy getting a different perspective on things and I think some of us are selling Colt Brennan short.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=53Fan;525266]While I don't agree with everything BHA posts, I do enjoy getting a different perspective on things and I think some of us are selling Colt Brennan short.[/quote]I don't think too many people are selling Brennan short. Brennan=Timmy Chang isn't very productive, but what's Brennan's ultimate hope? That he develops into a bona fide NFL Starter, someone like Jason Campbell or Byron Leftwich, and then people don't cast him aside for stupid reasons (like the ones that dropped him in the draft, if the scouts were wrong)?

I think he's more than capable of being our No. 2 guy, but I wouldn't bet a season on his ability to play in the NFL. Too much risk for the potential reward (an extra second round pick in this case).

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;525247]Off the top of my head, both John Madden and Clinton Portis think Brennan is going to be a baller some day. He is a QB hand-picked by Zorn so Zorn saw something in him.
[/quote]
Madden's just hyping a pre-season game, Clinton Portis has zero credibility in evaluating a QB prospect, Zorn used a 6th round pick on a project QB. Didn't Gibbs take Jordan Palmer with a 5th, where is Palmer now.

[quote]As to your Timmy Chang comparison, its insulting.[/quote]You may want to fully read the wiki on Chang again. The comparison is far from insulting. Both played for U of Hawaii in the June Jones offensive system, which creates Passing Stat monsters. Chang still holds several NCAA passing records (INTs, Offensive yards, Career Passing, and is third in total TDs). Chang was on NFL rosters for two years before being out (probably the same for CB) and picking up with the CFL. Chang is 6' 1", CB is 6' 3", those two inches make a difference if both were strictly pocket passers, but Chang is/was much more mobile than CB.

Also it doesn't matter where someone is slated to go in a mock draft, it's where they actually go that matters. Talking heads do mock drafts, guys on the Internet do mock drafts, NFL personnel folks actually draft. 31 other teams didn't see fit to take Brennan ahead of where he went. So 31 other sets of NFL personnel folks didn't see too much in him either. The WCO is not a fit for a QB with a poor release, below-average to weak NFL arm, that appears to makes some poor decisions on the NFL level.

[quote] He may not be the long-term answer for us at QB, but then again, he may be. Campbell has already proved that he isnt.[/quote]So Campbell improving yearly and increasing his performance from '07 to '08 with an inferior OL "proves" he isn't the guy for our system. The jury may still be out but the indicators appear to be that JC will be a solid, but not superstar, NFL QB.

[quote]They are general statements yes, but no one who watched him play can disagree with these statements unless they want to argue just for the sake of arguing. [/quote]I disagree with your statements because IMO they're wrong and you have no evidence or stats to show you're right. My stats (improved QB rating, only 6 INTs, 62% completions) favor my position over yours. I watched JC play and I have a completely different impression than you. You are taking the typical fan route, something's wrong, blame the QB. Maybe the protection broke down, maybe the sub 5'10" receivers weren't open, maybe JC's been coached to not make an overly aggressive play resulting in a turn-over. If you believe Jim Zorn is such a great QB evaluator that he "saw something" in CB, doesn't it make sense that if JC was "locking on" to receivers and was a "slow decision maker" that Zorn would've mentioned this (he is pretty forthcoming) or he would've went to Collins, or the Skins would be actively shopping JC for picks?

I don't remember seeing too many on this site making the comments about "slow decision making" & "locking on" when the Skins were 6-2.

[quote]Campbell never had time to develop in that system - but he was a much better fit for it.[/quote]In the Coryell / Gibbs type system you must be an accurate downfield passer, from what we have seen out of JC, that isn't his strong-suit.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

no way he comes here. Campbell is going to be the starter for at least the 2009-10 season. Leftwich could end up starting for Detroit

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;525268]I don't think too many people are selling Brennan short. Brennan=Timmy Chang isn't very productive, but what's Brennan's ultimate hope? That he develops into a bona fide NFL Starter, someone like Jason Campbell or Byron Leftwich, and then people don't cast him aside for stupid reasons (like the ones that dropped him in the draft, if the scouts were wrong)?

I think he's more than capable of being our No. 2 guy, but I wouldn't bet a season on his ability to play in the NFL. Too much risk for the potential reward (an extra second round pick in this case).[/quote]

I would never say start Brennan NEXT season. But given a couple of years, it is possible he could turn out to be a very good QB. I don't know how anyone could say with any certainty he won't.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;525259]No one with any credibility was saying anything about the Zorn hire outside of "well, they ran a solid process, so we'll see if they were right".[/quote]

Do you read JLC's blog? He quoted multiple leage executives (unnamed, of course) who criticized Zorns hire - both because no one else thought Zorn could be an OC, let alone HC, but also because of Campbells was essentially the opposite of what you look for in a WCO QB.

[quote=GTripp0012;525259]Now, if I go out on a limb and pretend you are right: If we find someone willing to deal a 2nd rounder for Campbell, that's a pretty good indication that we missed something in his valuation, right? Matt Schaub was worth two second rounders, and that was a buyers market based mostly on his prospects, not his production.

If we shop Campbell, how are other teams supposed to value him? We don't have a QB on our roster who can handle the position currently, so we would be right back in the free agent market (Where Leftwich is as good a solution as any). If it's a sellers market, and no buyers are willing to throw in more than a second rounder, I'd tell them to get lost.[/quote]

I actually think we could get more than a 2nd rounder, but in the end, i would take a 2nd if thats all i could get. If another team refused to offer atleast a 2nd rounder, i'd also tell them to get lost.

[quote=GTripp0012;525259]The undertone to your argument is that Campbell's eventual failure in Zorn's offense is inevitable, but you haven't defended that with anything but hearsay and speculation. Lots of people on this fourm (myself included) do disagree with the premise that you have presented, citing measurable evidence such as improved QB rating and pass efficiency in 2008. While it's theoretically possible that you are right, the "lots of people will disagree with me" angle just isn't all that convincing.[/quote]

I dont know how either of us can accurately predict whether Campbell will ultimately succeed in the WCO or not and back up our prediction with cold-hard facts. No one can predict the future. It all depends on what "hearsay and speculation" we chose to accept and base our belief on. Like you, i'm willing to say its possible i'm completely wrong about this: Theres a chance Campbell will surprise me here. But when i think about it, theres a FAR greater chance Campbell will fail than that he will succeed. He's too tall, too slow, too indecisive, and too innaccurate on his short throws. (i'll give up the stare down argument because i know it theres no way to prove his percentage of stare-downs vs other QBs). He was drafted by Joe Gibbs to run the EXACT opposite style of offense that we are running now. The WCO doesnt take advantage of his strengths (primarily his preference to longer step drops, big arm, and pretty accurate deep ball), while exaggerating all his weaknesses (i wont bore you by reiterating them). Campbell has improved in some areas - yes (most noteably not fumbling); but his underlying flaws remain.

At some point you have to cut your losses and move on. Im ready to do that now. The bears, Vikings, and Titans are perfect fits for Campbell and they all need franchise QBs. It seems the time is right for us to move him, in my opinion.



[quote=GTripp0012;525259]Your proposal is another 2nd round pick in trade for a ton of unnecessary offensive turnover, at the most fundamental positions on the team plus tons of unquantifiable scouting uncertainties that come with the change. Is it worth it? Maybe, but it seems like a lot of accounting work just to prove we might be able to break even.

------------

P.S. Past work I've done on this fourm and on my blog has estimated (roughly) that the average expectation for a 2nd round pick is somewhere between 2-3 wins (over replacement) over the life of a rookie contract. That's roughly Campbell's 2008 value alone, depending on whose metrics you deal with.[/quote]

While a rough analysis is certainly not a be all end all, it's a tough, tough mountain to climb to prove that making Byron Leftwich the Skins starting QB right now is the best move for the Washington Redskins.[/QUOTE]

If we could get more for campbell, i would be happy. As i stated earlier, I dont think leftwich is the best move for the skins, but I think hes a better move for us than sticking with campbell. In the end, I dont think leftwich would be any worse, and trading Campbell could yield us much needed draft picks, which we could use to address our lines. The more picks we have, the more line positions we can address, the sooner we can get this franchise back on track.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;525190]I'm fine with rebuilding. If we lose all but two games (Dallas) next year and get a high draft pick then I could stomach the pain.[/quote]

Gotta love it....how bout them Cowgirls!!!

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=53Fan;525279]I would never say start Brennan NEXT season. But given a couple of years, it is possible he could turn out to be a very good QB. I don't know how anyone could say with any certainty he won't.[/quote]I think he could be a pretty good NFL QB, but there's not the known quantity factor that you get in the high round draft picks. It's more than possible that the scouts were simply right on Brennan, that he's a guy you never want to see the field. Optimistically, I think he'll probably start somewhere in the NFL someday. Probably not here though.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

A little clip on Brennan from the draft last year. Kiper and co. make the same Brennan / Chang comparison. I agree 100% with Jaws, who is a very good analyst, especially on QBs......as we digress into yet another CB discussion.....can the guy at least win or start a game before he is considered to be "the future"????

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x5HH8LE6h4"]YouTube - Colt Brennan Drafted by Washington (1 of 2)[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdpr_Tz8MtE"]YouTube - Colt Brennan Drafted by Washington (2 of 2)[/ame]

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;525271]Madden's just hyping a pre-season game, Clinton Portis has zero credibility in evaluating a QB prospect, Zorn used a 6th round pick on a project QB. Didn't Gibbs take Jordan Palmer with a 5th, where is Palmer now.[/quote]

Didn't Pioli take Brady with a 6th? Where is Brady now?!! Sorry, just wanted to get that out there before it was inevitably brought up. Anyhow, I must admit that Colt has grown on me (maybe because his ugly release reminds me of one of my favorite QBS, Rernie Kosar), though I don't think he's quite ready. I think, from all I've seen and discussed with others, he does have potential to be a pretty good NFL QB.

I think it's a bit unfair to just compare him to Chang simply because they went to the same school. It's like comparing Cushing to Sartz or Peyton Manning to Tee Martin (not exactly, I know).

All kidding aside, Colt is solid with (wait for it Dirtbag) Upside. Still, the focus should be on Campbell who is, and probably always will be, a better NFL QB.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;525283]If we could get more for campbell, i would be happy. As i stated earlier, I dont think leftwich is the best move for the skins, but I think hes a better move for us than sticking with campbell. In the end, I dont think leftwich would be any worse, and trading Campbell could yield us much needed draft picks, which we could use to address our lines. The more picks we have, the more line positions we can address, the sooner we can get this franchise back on track.[/quote]It's also a very, very rough analysis to assume that Leftwich and Campbell are equals, and I've been okay with that assumption, but I think I should clear up that we're talking about a 27 year old vs. a 29 year old, which is a significant difference in terms of QB play. That's a guy with his best years ahead of him vs a guy already in his prime basically.

Then there's the point that you can't really invest massive millions into Leftwich because of injury concerns, but you can in Campbell because he's got a signifcantly nicer injury history.

[url=http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LeftBy00.htm]Byron Leftwich Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com[/url]

[url=http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CampJa00.htm]Jason Campbell Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com[/url]

I think we are in agreement though that a Leftwich-caliber QB is the best the FA market will offer in any given year.

In a vacuum, it's probably close enough to justify the proposal, but taken outside of the vacuum, Campbell is simply more promising at this point than Leftwich. And I like em both. But Leftwich's development has been screwed up by poor judgements to the point where he's someone's QB of the now, and he's no one's QB of the future. When he got cut from Jacksonville, he was still a promising if flawed prospect. Sort of like Campbell would be if we cut him outright today (but significantly less flawed).

So, that's the other side of this equation. I agree that this team needs draft picks, but this is a pretty significant cost, trading in your franchise QB for a similiar QB already at his potential. I know you don't see Campbell like I do and that's not going to change, but your position neccessarily requires an inherent (and arguably unsupported) lack of faith in Jason Campbell. Without that, it simply doesn't make sense to the rest of us.

JLC also thinks Campbell is the answer at QB, as long as we're talking about his blog.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;525291]I think it's a bit unfair to just compare him to Chang simply because they went to the same school. It's like comparing Cushing to Sartz or Peyton Manning to Tee Martin (not exactly, I know).
[/quote]I'm comparing him to Chang because they are (IMO) both system QBs with poor fundamentals who don't have NFL level arms or skills.

[quote]Still, the focus should be on Campbell who is, and probably always will be, a better NFL QB.[/quote]
Agree 1000%. Getting rid of Campbell and bringing in Leftwich as a stop-gap, with the thought that Brennan will be "the man" would be extremely foolish and set the Skins back a minimum of 3-4 years. If by some miracle, Brennan develops and due to injury or whatever gets his chance (ala Brady) he's costing next to nothing and we won't have to pay him a large contract until he's brought a significant amount of wins to DC.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;525283]But when i think about it, theres a FAR greater chance Campbell will fail than that he will succeed. He's too tall, too slow, too indecisive, and too innaccurate on his short throws. (i'll give up the stare down argument because i know it theres no way to prove his percentage of stare-downs vs other QBs).[/quote]See, I found something in this part that may give me some insight into why you don't think Campbell will work. You said he was "too tall", and maybe I'm reading way to far into this, but I don't know of any QB who has failed because of a surplus of height.

Perhaps the fallacy here is that Campbell doesn't look the part of a West Coast QB, but I don't believe there's a specific skill set that favors a west coast player over a non west coast player.

Moreover, I think you are just reading too much into what the WCO really is. It's a buzzword. I'm not going to base any of my opinions off the term because it doesn't carry any meaning to me. It represents a passing philosophy, where the coach [U][B]claims[/B][/U] to value high percentage passing over a vertical attack, but you are still going to see a steady diet of both.

I would agree with your criticism of Campbell's inaccuracies on shorter passes, argubly more critical to the Zorn offense than others, but a college QB by the name of Brady Quinn came out with the same issue after putting together the most impressive passing resume in the history of his school in an offense that was considered to be "pure" west cost. My point is, short range inaccuracies are not a dehabilitating weakness for a quarterback. They are still going to complete 75% of passes in the 0-5 yd range, even with the occasional ugly ball. That weakness will not make or break a QB.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;525286]I think he could be a pretty good NFL QB, but there's not [B]the known quantity factor that you get in the high round draft picks.[/B] It's more than possible that the scouts were simply right on Brennan, that he's a guy you never want to see the field. Optimistically, I think he'll probably start somewhere in the NFL someday. Probably not here though.[/quote]
I don't know if Brennan will ever be what some here hope for, but I'm not willing to put a ceiling on his career just yet as some seem to want to. I've always backed Campbell but that does not take away from Colt IMO. I guess I don't see it as a battle between Jason and Colt where one has to be bad and one good. I think Colt has potential just as Zorn must have. There have been so many disappointments at QB with high draft picks, Leaf..Alex Smith..Shuler...Couch..Rick whatever his name is from ND a few years back..Carr, etc. the list goes on and on. And yet some QB's whose stock dropped for some reason, Marino..Aaron Rodgers are two that come to mind right away, went on to play pretty well. So I'm not completely sold on what the scouts say. At least I don't take it for gospel. We all make mistakes. I hope Colt does well and I think he also has some qualities that may serve him well. And this in no way has anything to do with Jason who I expect to have a very good year next season.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=53Fan;525299]There have been so many disappointments at QB with high draft picks, Leaf..Alex Smith..Shuler...Couch..Rick whatever his name is from ND a few years back..Carr, etc. the list goes on and on. [/quote]Right, but those guys get onto the field immediately because of the monetary investment, and they are a known quantity very early.

We already know Jason Campbell is an NFL competent starter. We had a good idea of that when he was drafted. We didn't and don't have the same idea about Brennan, although all the evidence since the draft surrounding him has been positive.

If Brennan amounts to nothing, we can't throw him in with the Mirer's, Smiths' and Leaf's of the world. He would be more like the Spergon Wynn of 2008.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;525283]He's too tall, too slow, too indecisive, and too innaccurate on his short throws. [/quote]JC 6' 5", Matt Hasselbeck 6' 4". I was always under the impression that a taller QB can see over the lines and find passing lanes easier than a shorter QB.
Jason Campbell had 258 yds rushing and 5.5 yds/carry. Better than Cutler, Garcia, McNabb, T. Jackson. His Yds/carry was better than Matt Cassel & David Garrard. The too slow argument doesn't hold water.
We've gone over the other two arguments already.

[quote]The WCO doesnt take advantage of his strengths (primarily his preference to longer step drops, big arm, and pretty accurate deep ball)[/quote] JC's deep ball isn't particularly accurate. He was ranked 27th in the NFL in passes over 40 yards.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;525300]Right, but those guys get onto the field immediately because of the monetary investment, and they are a known quantity very early.

We already know Jason Campbell is an NFL competent starter. We had a good idea of that when he was drafted. We didn't and don't have the same idea about Brennan, although all the evidence since the draft surrounding him has been positive.

If Brennan amounts to nothing, we can't throw him in with the Mirer's, Smiths' and Leaf's of the world. He would be more like the [B]Spergon Wynn[/B] of 2008.[/quote]

Now there's a guy with potential! :)

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

My thinking when I started the thread was that we could bring in Leftwich to compete for 2nd with Collins, but I'm glad y'all ran with it. I like Collins but I just don't think he has as many years left in the tank.
If they do let JC go, if he should go down, or should he suck next year, then at least we have at lthe very least a starter with some youth ready to go and Colt.
Z is indicating that he doesn't think Colt is ready? So if Campbell is let go what options are there left beside FA? (an older QB who doesn't take many snaps, or a young player who has never started in the NFL?)
In my scenario if they let JC go you've got Byron and Colt sitting there waiting to get his spot and both of them have a future in the NFL. Then they can draft another QB in 2011. I wouldn't mind seeing Collins in there but I was just thinking of the future.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

I have always liked Byron Leftwich. I never understood how he lost his job and has not got a chance since. I looked at my brother during the Pittsburg game when he cam in and said this is worse for us than Rothlisberger playing. Byron, then proceeded to whip are ass. I would love to see what Zorn could do with him.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

Leftwich? Come one now!!!!!! The guy is a backup at best anymore, but he probably will end up being JC's replacement. Unless we have an above .500 year and playoffs, JC is not going to be resigned. His asking price is going to be too high for a team that has an age problem and depth problems to boot. Get Leftwich cheap and draft a QB in 2010. If the price is high for Leftwich, leave him alone.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;525271]Madden's just hyping a pre-season game, Clinton Portis has zero credibility in evaluating a QB prospect, Zorn used a 6th round pick on a project QB. Didn't Gibbs take Jordan Palmer with a 5th, where is Palmer now.

You may want to fully read the wiki on Chang again. The comparison is far from insulting. Both played for U of Hawaii in the June Jones offensive system, which creates Passing Stat monsters. Chang still holds several NCAA passing records (INTs, Offensive yards, Career Passing, and is third in total TDs). Chang was on NFL rosters for two years before being out (probably the same for CB) and picking up with the CFL. Chang is 6' 1", CB is 6' 3", those two inches make a difference if both were strictly pocket passers, but Chang is/was much more mobile than CB.

Also it doesn't matter where someone is slated to go in a mock draft, it's where they actually go that matters. Talking heads do mock drafts, guys on the Internet do mock drafts, NFL personnel folks actually draft. 31 other teams didn't see fit to take Brennan ahead of where he went. So 31 other sets of NFL personnel folks didn't see too much in him either. The WCO is not a fit for a QB with a poor release, below-average to weak NFL arm, that appears to makes some poor decisions on the NFL level.

So Campbell improving yearly and increasing his performance from '07 to '08 with an inferior OL "proves" he isn't the guy for our system. The jury may still be out but the indicators appear to be that JC will be a solid, but not superstar, NFL QB.

I disagree with your statements because IMO they're wrong and you have no evidence or stats to show you're right. My stats (improved QB rating, only 6 INTs, 62% completions) favor my position over yours. I watched JC play and I have a completely different impression than you. You are taking the typical fan route, something's wrong, blame the QB. Maybe the protection broke down, maybe the sub 5'10" receivers weren't open, maybe JC's been coached to not make an overly aggressive play resulting in a turn-over. If you believe Jim Zorn is such a great QB evaluator that he "saw something" in CB, doesn't it make sense that if JC was "locking on" to receivers and was a "slow decision maker" that Zorn would've mentioned this (he is pretty forthcoming) or he would've went to Collins, or the Skins would be actively shopping JC for picks?

I don't remember seeing too many on this site making the comments about "slow decision making" & "locking on" when the Skins were 6-2.

In the Coryell / Gibbs type system you must be an accurate downfield passer, from what we have seen out of JC, that isn't his strong-suit.[/quote]

Jordan Palmer was taken as the best available in one of the worst Skins drafts in recent history. Brennan did set NCAA records, while Palmer's claim to fame is being Carson's little brother. And let's face it, Gibbs II was a rather mediocre run at best.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

Did anyone watch Campbell play football in college? Did anyone watch Leftwich play football in college. Leftwich was selected 5 overall because he was incredibly talented and productive. Campbell was selected with the 25 pick because he was on a 12 - 0 team, Is tall, fast and has a huge arm. Campbell was seen as being an NFL prototypical QB. And most importantly Gibbs liked him, because he is a good southern character guy who is very christian and Gibbs favorite thing, can throw the deep ball. But if you actually watch Campbell's college games he's a fing mess. He had Ronnie Brown and Cadillac Williams to carry the team, had fantastic receivers and is carried by the rest of the team save his arm. He has no idea how the hell to play QB if he has to throw for less than 20 yards, the only pass he can make is to a checkdown receiver or too a guy that is running an out route who has a minimal step on somebody. He's done this third and long check down to betts his entire career, just it worked in college because his running backs were so good. And unfortunately he doesn't connect on any long balls in the NFL as we can tell considering I can remember the only one that happened this season. And for those who say Moss isn't a deep ball threat, he had more 40+ yard catches then any receiver in the league over the past 5 years. And the one year with Brunnell he was 2nd in the league in yards Moss ain't the problem. Campbell is, he's a terrible quarterback, he's a combine guy who doesn't have the production just potential. If you want terrible and inconsitent passing game that needs to be bailed out by long balls when we are not a deep threat team we should keep Campbell. Otherwise I would gladly take Collins, Brennan, or Leftwich.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

He's also not a scrambling QB, he fumbles constantly when he scrambles that's why he doesn't scramble even though he's athletic enough to be one. He also doesn't mind his surroundings in the pocket when he's looking downfield in the pocket, he chooses to either be minding his surroundings or scanning downfield, thats why he gets sacked so much or misses so many open receivers once he moves out of the pocket.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;525347]Jordan Palmer was taken as the best available in one of the worst Skins drafts in recent history. Brennan did set NCAA records, while Palmer's claim to fame is being Carson's little brother. And let's face it, Gibbs II was a rather mediocre run at best.[/quote]

If thats true then that was a HUGE mistake that ended up costing us more then most people realize. It was during that draft where Ben Patrick (TE Deleware), a guy projected as a 3rd rounder by Mayock was available when we picked Palmer. Now one year later we got a Tight End that can barely get on the field while Patrick is catching TD's and two point conversions in the playoffs for the Cardinals.

Maybe that was just Gibbs picking his guys but I doubt Palmer was the best player available even by the standards in which our front office evaluates players.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[B]Implications are simple....you don't pay a second string QB (who was drafted to your franchise QB) the type of money you have invested in a starter.
[/B]

Ever hear of Mark Brunell?

[B]Why in the world would the Skins want BL? He's too old.[/B]

LOL, this is too much fun, ....Mark Brunell. ....

[B]It's been said a couple of times in past years that Leftwich would love to come home to the Redskins (I saw a link the other day somewhere as well)
[/B]

Only because this is his home town. He wants to be back close to family.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[B]Did anyone watch Campbell play football in college? Did anyone watch Leftwich play football in college. Leftwich was selected 5 overall because he was incredibly talented and productive[/B]

Yeah......well BL has played a few yrs in the league and has had his fair share of injuries and has slowed a step as well as not being able to make all the throws as well as he used to. You want another Brunell go right ahead and bring him in. People talk about getting younger and having healthy players and now people are talking BL.

When he was "Let go" by Jacksonville didn't he play for another team? and get "Let go"?

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;525259]

If we shop Campbell, how are other teams supposed to value him? We don't have a QB on our roster who can handle the position currently, so we would be right back in the free agent market (Where Leftwich is as good a solution as any). If it's a sellers market, and no buyers are willing to throw in more than a second rounder, I'd tell them to get lost.

The undertone to your argument is that Campbell's eventual failure in Zorn's offense is inevitable, but you haven't defended that with anything but hearsay and speculation. [B]Lots of people on this fourm (myself included) do disagree with the premise that you have presented, citing measurable evidence such as improved QB rating and pass efficiency in 2008.[/B] While it's theoretically possible that you are right, the "lots of people will disagree with me" angle just isn't all that convincing.

Your proposal is another 2nd round pick in trade for a ton of unnecessary offensive turnover, at the most fundamental positions on the team plus tons of unquantifiable scouting uncertainties that come with the change. Is it worth it? Maybe, but it seems like a lot of accounting work just to prove we might be able to break even.

------------

P.S. Past work I've done on this fourm and on my blog has estimated (roughly) that the average expectation for a 2nd round pick is somewhere between 2-3 wins (over replacement) over the life of a rookie contract. That's roughly Campbell's 2008 value alone, depending on whose metrics you deal with.

While a rough analysis is certainly not a be all end all, it's a tough, tough mountain to climb to prove that making Byron Leftwich the Skins starting QB right now is the best move for the Washington Redskins.[/quote]

Got to tell you GT i think a lot of times your posts shed light on our discussions around here. Way too many Skins fans somehow ignore the significant improvement JC made from '07 to '08 within the context of a brand new system to boot. His footwork got better, his control of the ball to avoid fumbles was drastically improved and he began to make quicker decisions (especially moving the ball with his own two legs). There is no logical reasoning that says he won't make strides again this year and even in the things we know are weaknesses, like delivery time and accuracy (bigger targets are going to help that IMO). Bottom line is it strikes me as ABSURD to write the kid off when the consensus is it takes a couple years to get up to speed in the WCO and JC works his tail off to improve.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=gaudiomatt;525357]He's also not a scrambling QB, he fumbles constantly when he scrambles that's why he doesn't scramble even though he's athletic enough to be one. He also doesn't mind his surroundings in the pocket when he's looking downfield in the pocket, he chooses to either be minding his surroundings or scanning downfield, thats why he gets sacked so much or misses so many open receivers once he moves out of the pocket.[/quote]

Jeez man are you watching our games? He scrambled for 258 yards last season w/o a single fumble.

... and he got sacked so much because our line couldn't pass block against good defenses. Against Pitt, Baltimore, Dallas and NY defenders were breaking through the line before Jason had taken 2 steps back.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

I am shocked - - [B]SHOCKED[/B] - - that no one has looked carefully at this year's free agent QB list and seen [B]THE ANSWER [/B]to the problem here.


Patrick Ramsey is a free agent. Think about it:


Former top pick of the Skins.

Had a better winning record after 15 games than either Brett Favre or Peyton Manning.

Knows the pressure of being the QB in Washington.

He's rested and ready.


I love it when a plan comes together. [/ The A-Team] :doh:

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

^Plus he already knows the WCO cause he played in Denver for so many yrs. lol. ;)

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;525255]He's already got a ring from Pittsburg. Why would he want to stay with them as a backup, making backup money, and know that he would never get the chance to start unless Big Ben got hurt?

He's still fairly young, is a free agent, and the redskins are the team he presumably grew up rooting for. If he felt he had a chance to come here, get starting money, and actually get to PLAY for the team he loves, why stay in pittsburg and sit on a bench the rest of his career?[/quote]

There are only a few teams where BL could go and be a starter and the Skins are one of those teams for sure but in the big picture BL is a back up and if one is going to be a back up the Steelers arent a bad team to back up on.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;525201]Youre assuming that Campbells replacement is not already in-house... Brennan is going to be a baller someday.

[/quote]

I really hope the skins FO doesnt consider colt the answer if JC doesnt work out . . . a good showing in the second half of the first pre-season game plus a cool name doesnt give me any indication of what kind of qb he will become in the NFL.

i'd rather have JC who has shown he is a good, capable QB while we search for that true elite QB (which could take anywhere from a few years to never). . .we shouldnt stop looking for that Manning or Brady type QB (who could give us 6-10 years of real competitive ball) just b/c we have a solid starting QB and a 3rd string rookie half the fan base thinks will be a baller.

not sayin JC or colt cant become "ballers", just sayin until we have a legit elite qb, we shouldnt stop looking for him.

go skins!!

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

I can't believe this thread is getting so much attention. It's Byron Leftwich.
Why would we even consider this!! He's pretty much the same type QB as Campbell.
It would be a lateral move in my opinion.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

JC is a much better QB than leftwich IMO. ones an entrenched starter with solid numbers, the other is unemployed.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

Lotta Campbell-lovers in here apparently. To clarify my remark about Campbell being too tall, Zorn worked with him all offseason to stand shorter in the pocket because Zorn felt he was too tall.... so Campbell is always crouched down a little bit - that cant be comfortable for him. Someone also said something about JLC thinking Campbell is our franchise QB, and thats not accurate. JLC has said he thinks we should stick with Campbell because he's not THE probelm. O-line is our biggest and we still dont have good receivers. JLC thinks Campbell hasnt done enough either way to show if he can be THE GUY for us or not.

Here is an article I found after our first loss this season:

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/05/AR2008090503414.html?sub=AR]Trying to Get Up to Speed - washingtonpost.com[/url]

[quote]He's so big, and I just want him to move faster," Zorn said of the 6-foot-5 Campbell, who completed 15 of 27 passes Thursday night for 133 yards with a touchdown and an 81.2 passer rating. "And we'll continue to work on it. I'm not discouraged with a lot of the things he did. I just want him to get better."


Zorn lauded Campbell for protecting the football and not turning it over but was concerned by his tendency to lock onto a particular receiver, which contributed to a sack on the first offensive play of the game. Campbell also neglected to attempt to find a primary receiver downfield too often -- opting for "check-downs" to secondary options instead -- and Zorn is still waiting for a vertical component of his attack take shape.

Some scouts and executives believe Campbell is a poor fit for the West Coast offense, with his size and skills favoring seven-step drops and more deep throws, instead of the three-step drops and quick, rhythmic cadence of Zorn's style. "When I watch that team, I think something's going to have to give," said one NFL executive who has studied Campbell closely and believes he could succeed as a drop-back passer. "Is it the scheme or the quarterback? At some point either the coach is going to have to change what he does to fit the quarterback, or they're going to need a different quarterback."

[/quote]

Did Campbell improve in some areas of his play between 07 and 08? Sure. His passer rating went up a little bit (as it should for any QB in a WCO) and he stopped fumbling every game... thats good. But the fundamental flaws in Campbells game mentioned in the article - holding on to the ball too long and locking onto a receiver - have plagued campbell his entire career. They were a problem in college. They were a problem under Gibbs. They were a problem under Saunders. They were a problem at the beginning fo the season with Zorn. They were still a problem at the end of the season. In the WCO, you simply can't have a QB who holds on to the ball to long. Arguably, that would apply to any offense, but in a Coreyll style offense like the one we ran before, 5 and 7 step drops are more common than they are in a WCO. In that type of offense, Campbells tendancy to hold onto the ball can be covered over a little bit. but not here. the WCO (and one with a weak offensive line), where the majority of the passing plays involve 3 step drops, its KILLER.

If Campbell had shown some improvement in getting rid of the ball quicker and not locking in on his receivers as the season went on, i might feel differently. but he didnt. we're wasting our time with Campbell and the WCO. Either he needs to go, or the system does. However, if the system went (and Zorn was fired), and Campbell had to learn another new offense - theres no way he'd want to resign here, so we'd lose him anyways as a free agent. Holding onto campbell now does nothing but delay the inevitable. One way or another, chances are, he wont be our starting QB in 2011. We can keep him another year or two, and get nothing for him when he leaves, or we can get something for him in a trade and start developing a plan B.

Alot of you have made good arguments for Campbell, and I understand in your opinions, he is the undisputed savior of our franchise. I felt that way about Ramsey. I used to feel that way about Campbell. Maybe i just havent done a good job of expressing my argument convincingly, but i just dont have much hope for Campbell in a skins uniform.

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;525423]Lotta Campbell-lovers in here apparently. To clarify my remark about Campbell being too tall, Zorn worked with him all offseason to stand shorter in the pocket because Zorn felt he was too tall.... so Campbell is always crouched down a little bit - that cant be comfortable for him.[/quote]Zorn didn't feel he was too tall. He needed to be quicker and have better balance on his drops which means deeper bend in the knees. That helps keep your feet balanced and allows a quicker set and release.

[quote]JLC has said he thinks we should stick with Campbell because he's not THE probelm.[/quote]Not to argue your point, you're correct here. But I don't put to much stock in what JLC has to say other than direct quotes he gets from Redskin Park or the players. This is the same guy whose in-depth knowledge of football had him writing a column after the draft about 4WR, 2TE sets.

[quote]
Here is an article I found after our first loss this season:

[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/05/AR2008090503414.html?sub=AR"]Trying to Get Up to Speed - washingtonpost.com[/URL]
[/quote]you should've posted these two paragraphs also:
Zorn discounted the notion Campbell might not be a perfect fit for this offense but was honest about the length of time necessary to grasp it fully. He spoke again yesterday about how "wild" Pro Bowl passer [URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Matt+Hasselbeck?tid=informline"][COLOR=#0c4790]Matt Hasselbeck[/COLOR][/URL] was in his first season in [URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Seattle+Seahawks?tid=informline"][COLOR=#0c4790]Seattle[/COLOR][/URL] with Zorn as quarterbacks coach, even after Hasselbeck's four years as a backup in the same system in [URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Green+Bay+Packers?tid=informline"][COLOR=#0c4790]Green Bay[/COLOR][/URL], but said Campbell has enough talent to overcome any hiccups.
"I think he's got enough athleticism, I really do, to speed up his game in certain situations," Zorn said. "And part of that, I'm hoping, is just the idea of understanding the offense better, the speed of it. He's not there yet, but I'm not totally discouraged. We have to make big plays when the opportunity is there."

pretty good endorsement from Zorn, and this was after a discouraging loss....

[quote]They were still a problem at the end of the season.[/quote]The problem at the end of the season was the OL breakdown.

[quote]Alot of you have made good arguments for Campbell, and I understand in your opinions, he is the undisputed savior of our franchise.[/quote]I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't believe he's the savior. I believe he is a solid, competent NFL starter who hasn't reached his potential. He has the potential to be a borderline Pro Bowler, if he develops in the WCO. He will never be a Manning, Brady (future HoFer) type

re: Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)
 

No question Leftwich can start in the NFL and the perfect fit for him is Carolina, not here. He's going to need to solid line in front of him and a running game. If he has those two things ( plus a nice deep target..Steve Smith) then he can get the job done. It really shocked me that certain teams didn't jump to get this guy.