Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=53Fan;526746][QUOTE=The Goat;526741]Yeah I feel the same about Thrash, he is totally a non-factor on offense.

[B]The list of WRs and TEs, on paper at list, is impressive IMO. I hope these kids are putting it together in the offseason for a big aerial surprise come regular season. Cooley/Davis is a sick TE combination and I'm anxious to see what Zorn can do with a couple of blocking/pass-catching monsters.[/[/B]QUOTE]

This is what makes improving the o-line so important. [B]If JC has time, this offense should kick-ass.[/B][/quote]

Truer words ain't been spoken. The relative success of the o-line is sort of a double whammy wrt Cooley/Davis... i mean w/ an improved line these studs should have way more opportunities to get into space and school opposing LBs. As long as the line struggles two of our best pass catchers are taken from the equation... lame.

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;526745][B]I really don't like the idea of rewarding non-productive players with more bonus money making it harder to cut them down the line. [/B] And of course by non productive I mean based on their production last season. It's honestly just a lot more of the same and I guess I've made my current feelings on the front office clear so I'll stay away from that for now. However with this current topic I'll go on record as saying I don't like the move. If anything I would rather cut the older guys and get some breathing room instead of using the same tactics that got us to where we are with Jansen, not saying that it will happen exactly the same way with Carter and Randle El but it's not promising.

So there now you guys know why :D[/quote]

If youre a redskins fan and you dont like these contracts then you just dont understand it. Here are the full details of the contracts:

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2009/02/the_full_carter_and_randle_el.html#comments]The Full Carter And Randle El Contracts - Redskins Insider[/url]

Now, of course, JLC would never say anything positive about the skins. He just referred to these moves as standard "salary cap gymnastics." Really, this is great for the skins and does the exact opposite of what you alleged in your post.

Prior to these new contracts, to release Carter after the 2009 season would have cost 6.8M against the cap. So now, not only do we save 2.4M against the cap in 2009, it will only cost 5.1M against the cap to cut him after the season.

Prior to AREs new contract, it would also have cost 6.8M to cut him after the season. Now, not only do we save 2M against the cap in 2009, but his release fee after the season is now only 4.4M.

To summarize, these extensions lower their cap hit significantly in 2009, while also HELPING us and making it EASIER to cut them prior to the 2010 season. Cutting them in 2010 wouldnt matter if there is no salary cap, but if there is a new CBA, these new contracts will save us 4.1M in cap space 2010, as well.
There is also another bonus for us - ARE and Carter likely realize this is their last year for the redskins, so in 2009, they are essentially auditioning for a new contract with another team in 2010 - we might actually get some production out of them this year.

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;526678]Well Campbell said going into the offseason that you may see some unexpected turnover with the offense.

Could Randle El's signing secure his spot with us and leave Moss's in doubt? If El is still here who is going to be the unexpected offensive Redskins not with us next year?

Moss could be dangling on a trade string as we speak.[/quote]

Oh please I hope not. I simply don't understand this team's obsession with ARE. Unless you use him like he is supposed to be sued, as a third WR, other than that, he sucks.

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;526843]Now, of course, [B]JLC would never say anything positive about the skins[/B]. He just referred to these moves as standard "salary cap gymnastics."[/quote]

From the article:
[quote][B]In both cases, the players will pocket in raw cash terms exactly what they would have in 2009[/B] under their previous deals ($4.5 million for Carter - including his old roster bonus - and $4 million for Randle El).[/quote]

[quote]Neither has been very productive since signing lucrative free agent deals here in March of 2006, and both play positions that have been woefully unproductive here on the whole. From the player standpoint, there's every incentive to do these deals, [B]they end up getting more money up front now[/B] and the chance to earn much more.[/quote]

Even as JLC tries to put down the FO, he contradicts himself.
To me these contracts seem to be a good balancing act whether or not a CBA is signed.

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

It's probably Antwaan's fault he sucks as a punt returner. But I don't think he's to blame for the contract he initially got here and it's not his fault no one has been able to supplant him yet as the #2 receiver. He hasn't done an awful job.

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

Here's my hope for our WRs and ARE. Take him off punts so he can be fresher for playing WR. Less bumps and bruises, less mileage. Then I hope that either Thomas or Kelly can take a starting job and bump ARE into the slot as the #3 where he should be and can be most effective. Then use him more on gadget plays (wildcat, options, etc) where he excels.

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=Mattyk72;526870]Here's my hope for our WRs and ARE. Take him off punts so he can be fresher for playing WR. Less bumps and bruises, less mileage.[B] Then I hope that either Thomas or Kelly can take a starting job and bump ARE into the slot as the #3 where he should be and can be most effective[/B]. Then use him more on gadget plays (wildcat, options, etc) where he excels.[/quote]

I think that's why we got him to begin with. I think he'd be good in the slot. We've had to use him at #2 because no one else could take that spot so he's had to play out of position. If Kelly can perform this year the way we hoped he would when we drafted him, it sure would cure a lot of ills.

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=PennSkinsFan;526854]Oh please I hope not. I simply don't understand this team's obsession with ARE. Unless you use him like he is supposed to be sued, as a third WR, other than that, he sucks.[/quote]The obsession is that Randle El does his job (complementary receiver) better than any receiver on the team does their own job, including Moss.

And the problem of course, is that Randle El is not capable of running all the routes, because his effectiveness pretty much ends at 20 yards. So they can't just move Moss unless they think one of the young guys can handle the go-to receiver role.

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

I think the expectation when we drafted him was that Devin Thomas should be our #1 receiver, moving Moss to #2 and ARE to #3. If Moss is traded at some point, Kelly would be our #2. One way or another, i dont think ARE starts this year as our #2 receiver.

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=Mattyk72;526870]Here's my hope for our WRs and ARE. Take him off punts so he can be fresher for playing WR. Less bumps and bruises, less mileage. Then I hope that either Thomas or Kelly can take a starting job and bump ARE into the slot as the #3 where he should be and can be most effective. Then use him more on gadget plays (wildcat, options, etc) where he excels.[/quote]


I second this motion.... All in favor say I...

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=GTripp0012;526892]The obsession is that Randle El does his job (complementary receiver) better than any receiver on the team does their own job, including Moss.

And the problem of course, is that Randle El is not capable of running all the routes, because his effectiveness pretty much ends at 20 yards. So they can't just move Moss unless they think one of the young guys can handle the go-to receiver role.[/quote]

Honestly even though Moss is our best WR...he doesn't exactly fill that go to role either. We don't have that player. Moss dissapears for weeks at a time. Moss is a good player but not good enough or consistent enough to be an effective #1 WR. I would move him if a reasonable trade offer was there. That would force one of these young WR's to sink or swim as the #1 WR and see what happens. With Moss & El back on this team next year those young guys are going to get minimal opportunities and probably not progress that much.

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=celts32;526922]Honestly even though Moss is our best WR...he doesn't exactly fill that go to role either. We don't have that player. Moss dissapears for weeks at a time. Moss is a good player but not good enough or consistent enough to be an effective #1 WR. I would move him if a reasonable trade offer was there. That would force one of these young WR's to sink or swim as the #1 WR and see what happens. [B]With Moss & El back on this team next year those young guys are going to get minimal opportunities and probably not progress that much.[/B][/quote]

I wouldn't assume so much... if the young guys have learned their routes and can be effective on offense I firmly believe they'll split time w/ Moss/ARL... the much bigger concern is not Zorn's willingness to include them but Hixon's seeming inability to develop WRs at the professional level. I hope very much he proves me wrong...

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

I still don't get the hating on Hixon. Prior to Thomas and Kelly what other young, quality WRs has he been given to work with and develop??

You've gotta blame Thomas for most of his struggles, and Kelly had injury issues.

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=Mattyk72;526946]I still don't get the hating on Hixon. Prior to Thomas and Kelly what other young, quality WRs has he been given to work with and develop??

You've gotta blame Thomas for most of his struggles, and Kelly had injury issues.[/quote]

I think it's the Anthony Mix factor. Why can UFAs like Stephon Heyer and Lorenzo Alexander make an impact, but not Mix, Toler, Mann, etc.

I also think the scenarios are far different.

Plus I think that while Hixon isn't the best option, we have much more pressing issues.

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=Mattyk72;526946]I still don't get the hating on Hixon. Prior to Thomas and Kelly what other young, quality WRs has he been given to work with and develop??

You've gotta blame Thomas for most of his struggles, and Kelly had injury issues.[/quote]

SBXV11 did a good list of WR's that have been through Hixon's training here:
[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/27618-our-wrs-in-2009-my-thoughts-11.html#post523516"]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/27618-our-wrs-in-2009-my-thoughts-11.html#post523516[/URL]

I think my point is with the number of receivers that have been through, and the problems we continue to have, Hixon has done nothing to merit staying. Maybe he hasn't done so bad as to be fired, but certainly when his contract is up we should look for a replacement.

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;526954]SBXV11 did a good list of WR's that have been through Hixon's training here:
[URL]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/27618-our-wrs-in-2009-my-thoughts-11.html#post523516[/URL]

I think my point is with the number of receivers that have been through, and the problems we continue to have, Hixon has done nothing to merit staying. Maybe he hasn't done so bad as to be fired, but certainly when his contract is up we should look for a replacement.[/quote]

But it's not like these guys have gone on to do anything anywhere else. I mean seriously that list is littered with scrubs.

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=Mattyk72;526964]But it's not like these guys have gone on to do anything anywhere else. I mean seriously that list is littered with scrubs.[/quote]
That's true, but, I believe that he has not done anything that says, "Wow, what a great job" either. Some of our position coaches are the best in the league, ie Jerry Gray, and it seems like there ought to be an opportunity to upgrade there.
Plus it makes for a good sacrificial lamb for all the mental errors through the season. ;)

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;526979]That's true, but, I believe that he has not done anything that says, "Wow, what a great job" either. Some of our position coaches are the best in the league, ie Jerry Gray, and it seems like there ought to be an opportunity to upgrade there.
Plus it makes for a good sacrificial lamb for all the mental errors through the season. ;)[/quote]

Can we really say he's had a lot to work with though??

I say we need to give him another year to see how Thomas and Kelly pan out.

And what about the success that Moss has had? Does he get no credit at all for that?

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=Mattyk72;526983]Can we really say he's had a lot to work with though??[/quote]
well, i think he has had some input probably, and i think all the HC/OC's tried to bring in playmakers

[quote]I say we need to give him another year to see how Thomas and Kelly pan out.[/quote]
SOMEONE HAS TO PAY!! ;)
Seriously, I think we keep wanting to give everyone one more year and mostly I agree, but none of the WR's showed much in the way of good coaching, I think what we see on the field is the raw ability mostly. I really don't know, but it seems like we should have seen some "thing" over 5 years that either said yes keep him, or else it is time to move on. He is not a qb in new systems, he is a pro WR receiver coach with 5 yrs experience. If this is good as he gets, we can do better. (maybe worse, but that's hard to see)

[quote]And what about the success that Moss has had? Does he get no credit at all for that?[/quote]
I would say that is almost all Moss' natural talent, plus coaching he had when he got here, I've never heard Moss or any WR credit Hixon, so maybe that sways me too. I won't knock him hard for not developing any of the others, so I won't give him a lot of credit for a naturally talented WR.

For me two things are paramount:
1) In 5 years he has not visibly improved one prospect (Kelly/Thomas are still pending)

2) This is not a "essential personnel move" like JC, or Zorn, where another year could make or break them. Instead, this is a position where an improvement now could pay huge dividends in training Kelly and Thomas to be #1 receivers. The flip side is if it [U]is[/U] Hixon, and he wastes another year here, we could potentially scrap Kelly and Thomas' careers.

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;526990]well, i think he has had some input probably, and i think all the HC/OC's tried to bring in playmakers


SOMEONE HAS TO PAY!! ;)
Seriously, I think we keep wanting to give everyone one more year and mostly I agree, but none of the WR's showed much in the way of good coaching, I think what we see on the field is the raw ability mostly. I really don't know, but it seems like we should have seen some "thing" over 5 years that either said yes keep him, or else it is time to move on. He is not a qb in new systems, he is a pro WR receiver coach with 5 yrs experience. If this is good as he gets, we can do better. (maybe worse, but that's hard to see)


I would say that is almost all Moss' natural talent, plus coaching he had when he got here, I've never heard Moss or any WR credit Hixon, so maybe that sways me too. I won't knock him hard for not developing any of the others, so I won't give him a lot of credit for a naturally talented WR.

For me two things are paramount:
1) In 5 years he has not visibly improved one prospect (Kelly/Thomas are still pending)

2) This is not a "essential personnel move" like JC, or Zorn, where another year could make or break them. Instead, this is a position where an improvement now could pay huge dividends in training Kelly and Thomas to be #1 receivers. The flip side is if it [U]is[/U] Hixon, and he wastes another year here, we could potentially scrap Kelly and [B]Hixon's[/B] careers.[/quote]

Think you meant Thomas' careers and yeah that is one of my biggest concerns as well.

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

Also Matty, in the Plackemeier thread, you looked at his stats and basically said cya, and I agree we can do better.

I looked in the NFL reference, and here are our Receiving Stats per year:
2004 - 29th
2005 - 22nd
2006 - 23rd
2007 - 15th (one good year, kinda like Placks one good game)
2008 - 22nd

Statistically we average to the 22nd place. I just think the Skins can do so much better. How many coaches have we brought in to help JC, and it has worked, in my opinion.

Stan Hixon may be good - but we can and ought to do better.

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=The Goat;526991]Think you meant Thomas' careers and yeah that is one of my biggest concerns as well.[/quote]

yep, thanks, i fixed it.

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;526992]Also Matty, in the Plackemeier thread, you looked at his stats and basically said cya, and I agree we can do better.

I looked in the NFL reference, and here are our Receiving Stats per year:
2004 - 29th
2005 - 22nd
2006 - 23rd
2007 - 15th (one good year, kinda like Placks one good game)
2008 - 22nd

Statistically we average to the 22nd place. I just think the Skins can do so much better. How many coaches have we brought in to help JC, and it has worked, in my opinion.

Stan Hixon may be good - but we can and ought to do better.[/quote]

In the case of the punting situation notice we're replacing the player, not the coach. It's a talent issue, not coaching. The same applies to WR, let's see what Hixon can do with some actual talent. Not some fan favorite scrubs who haven't done jack in this league for anyone before or after being a Redskin.

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=Ruhskins;526662]So for the people that complain my question is...if we don't restructure, what else can the team do? Wouldn't cutting some of these guys would affect our cap more? I know that restructuring is not a good thing, but isn't it a lesser of two evils?[/quote]


you eventually have to pay the piper. You can't keep giving these older players these types of deals. randel el is 29 and if that extension kicks in through 2015, he'll be like 35 or so making pretty damn good money for a guy that hasn't produced in his peek years. Same goes for Carter. This is why we dont have quality depth, why we have aging players making too much money to cut. You have to get rid of these guys when there best days are behind them, like the Eagles, Patriots seem to do and fill the spots with young guys. Its just the same old crap from the Front Office.

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=Schneed10;526710]Thank you. Someone else said it so I didn't have to.

There's not likely to be a cap in 2010 and beyond. Extending Randle-El and Carter will not be a financial problem come this time next year.

This clears more space than I had anticipated would be possible from Carter and Randle-El, because they're extending (to remain compliant with 30% rule) as opposed to restructuring.

I'll withhold further comment until I see more contract details, but this points to an attempt to keep the old heads on the team around for a longer period of time.[/quote]



You can not bank on NOT have a salary cap. I would imagine the sides will come together and work something out. the NFL and its owners do not want to have a NON CAPPED NFL. It would be disastrous for the smaller market teams, especially in the financial situation the country is in.

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=Mattyk72;527016]In the case of the punting situation notice we're replacing the player, not the coach. It's a talent issue, not coaching. The same applies to WR, let's see what Hixon can do with some actual talent. Not some fan favorite scrubs who haven't done jack in this league for anyone before or after being a Redskin.[/quote]

I know that it is different with a coach vs player, not to mention receiving stats include TE's and RB's (which only adds to the sadness when you consider Cooley's yardage drop out of the totals).

Can I ask a few questions though:
1) if we can't look at pure stats; and we dismiss the drops, wrong routes, etc as mental errors, then what criteria can we as fans look at to rate a coach. After all; we consider Jerry Gray a top notch coach, but he certainly has naturally gifted players. And Zorn was considered an excellent coach with what he did with Hasselback - but what if Zorn hadn't coached him, would he have been added to the list of "favorite scrubs" and Zorn given a pass?

2) After 5 years, what is the argument FOR keeping him? I am not trying to hate on Hixon, I am confident he is a good guy-or he would have been gone. But the defense of keeping him really seems to be: "he is here, lets keep him".

3) Can we do worse if we bring someone else in? Are we hurting the team by trying to get a top tier WR coach? Does he have a strong locker room or esprit de corps value which is understated?

4) and finally, Through massive coaching changes in the last 5 years, why does he rise above the fray?

I just want to understand what he brings to the Skins that makes him valuable enough to have, what seems like, more immunity - with much less on the field results -than many of the coaches we have released .

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;527073]I know that it is different with a coach vs player, not to mention receiving stats include TE's and RB's (which only adds to the sadness when you consider Cooley's yardage drop out of the totals).

Can I ask a few questions though:
1) if we can't look at pure stats; and we dismiss the drops, wrong routes, etc as mental errors, then what criteria can we as fans look at to rate a coach. After all; we consider Jerry Gray a top notch coach, but he certainly has naturally gifted players. And Zorn was considered an excellent coach with what he did with Hasselback - but what if Zorn hadn't coached him, would he have been added to the list of "favorite scrubs" and Zorn given a pass?

2) After 5 years, what is the argument FOR keeping him? I am not trying to hate on Hixon, I am confident he is a good guy-or he would have been gone. But the defense of keeping him really seems to be: "he is here, lets keep him".

3) Can we do worse if we bring someone else in? Are we hurting the team by trying to get a top tier WR coach? Does he have a strong locker room or esprit de corps value which is understated?

4) and finally, Through massive coaching changes in the last 5 years, why does he rise above the fray?

I just want to understand what he brings to the Skins that makes him valuable enough to have, what seems like, more immunity - with much less on the field results -than many of the coaches we have released .[/quote]

I agree. I haven't seen anything to say Hixon is a great coach. I've watched him give an interview and other then being a nice guy there wasn't anything really impressive about him. I"ve heard Danny Smith called out this year even though he's done well in the past and doesn't really have much on teams. I've even heard Buges called out even though he's working with senior citizens on the o-line. You never hear anything about Hixon and our passing game sucked this year. Granted he hasn't had alot to work with but can anybody name anything good that he gets credit for? I've never heard the players or coaches even mention his name. It's not that I want to blame him for anything, I'd like to give him some credit....But for what?

Re: New contracts for Andre Carter and Randle El
 

[quote=#56fanatic;527069]you eventually have to pay the piper. You can't keep giving these older players these types of deals. randel el is 29 and if that extension kicks in through 2015, he'll be like 35 or so making pretty damn good money for a guy that hasn't produced in his peek years. Same goes for Carter. This is why we dont have quality depth, why we have aging players making too much money to cut. You have to get rid of these guys when there best days are behind them, like the Eagles, Patriots seem to do and fill the spots with young guys. Its just the same old crap from the Front Office.[/quote]

The Patriots let's their star players walk away when they are free agents (Adam V. and Rodney Harrison) and trade them when they are in their prime (Deion Branch). Also bad idea using the Patriots as an example, as they bring old players and make them work (i.e. Junior Seau).