Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=The Goat;538892][B]I'll spell it out for u since u somehow missed the point...[/B] in WWII there was no question. People DID encourage their loved ones to join because the fate of the world rested in our hands. My parents and grandparents (when they we're living) can attest to this. Iraq is the opposite. People of a certain political persuasion r gung-go until it involves their loved ones. You might say this war doesn't pass the smell test, because people aren't willing to see their loved ones in harm's way. It's pretty simple.[/quote]


your point was not missed, just stupid , imo. please don't try to compare people from the ww2 era to people today. back then people understood the meaning of GOD, family and hard work.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

Well that dialogue went downhill quick LOL.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

LOL. Give him a break, I think he's trying to make a point. Wait for it...wait for it...wait for it, it's coming any time now...

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=The Goat;538892]I'll spell it out for u since u somehow missed the point... in WWII there was no question. People DID encourage their loved ones to join because the fate of the world rested in our hands. My parents and grandparents (when they we're living) can attest to this. Iraq is the opposite. People of a certain political persuasion r gung-go until it involves their loved ones. You might say this war doesn't pass the smell test, because people aren't willing to see their loved ones in harm's way. It's pretty simple.[/quote]
I thought for WWII we had a draft and people also sign on themself but I don't think loved ones encouraged the husbands and sons to join. Its more that some wanted to serve and their love ones back their decision.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

232 Years later, our nation is still "shaky" and not yet perfected.

Iraq has come a LONG way from being the savage dictatorship they were just a few years ago. In fact, because of our help, it could be said they've progressed faster than we did after our own founding. We trashed our founding documents and started all over again a decade into the experiment.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=saden1;538953]Your assessment to me boils down to the highlighted line. [B]According to you Vietnam was a win, Korea was a win. As with everything in life taking a long term view tremendously increases the chance of success. I could take the same long term view with respect to Iraq and say in 100 years Iraq would become a "democracy" without us having to go to war.[/B]
[/quote]
Well, I do think life is better viewed in a longterm view, and I think it is a big stretch to say Iraq would necessarily have been a democracy in 100 years without our involvement.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=Buster;539096]232 Years later, our nation is still "shaky" and not yet perfected.

Iraq has come a LONG way from being the savage dictatorship they were just a few years ago. In fact, because of our help, it could be said they've progressed faster than we did after our own founding. [B]We trashed our founding documents and started all over again a decade into the experiment.[/B][/quote]

Outstanding point

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

Perhaps it's time to explore going into Sudan and continue to spread democracy?

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;539115]Well, I do think life is better viewed in a longterm view, and I think it is a big stretch to say Iraq would necessarily have been a democracy in 100 years without our involvement.[/quote]
I don't think we can really call Iraq a democracy until we are out of there and they are having fair and honest elections on their own. The hope is that they stay a democracy and it spreads over the middle east but thats asking alot.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;538670]I served 5 years my friend, in the early 90's; if I had given my life, my family would have considered it a personal loss, but they would have known i joined with open eyes, and would have been proud of my contribution. No one forced me to join, and when i swore my oath, i did not say "but if i die it is a loss" I did not want to die, i did not even want to go to bosnia (and thankfully didn't, my unit left 1 month after i pcs'd to the states) but it was my duty, and one i would have done if called upon. to ask that question demeans our soldiers and their families. No one person will consider a lost life a win in any situation. If a man goes to jail, his family will consider it a loss, but if it upholds our country's laws it may very well have been a win. No one family, when focused on their child/sibling/parent will consider a death a win, but they may see the it as a part of a greater truth, and gain strength and peace in that vision.

My friend, every loss is tragic, 9-11 was tragic, the kurds who were tossed in the mass graves were tragic, our soldiers sacrifice is tragic, but if in the end a government is formed that prevents any more mass grave, allows free participation in the political process, and provides for stability in the region then our families will look on their personal tragedy with a belief that it was not in vain.[/quote]

Very well said.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

It never ceases to amaze me how so many value an american life over that of any other nationality. When CRedskinsRule discusses the actual gains in Iraq and how our losses could not be viewed as "a complete waste" and that our soldiers did not "die for no reason," it's because he's speaking to the greater good of righting wrongs. I can understand that crowd that rails when they see flag covered coffins but I really believe there is a majority that is simply missing the point. Hussein and his party were violating every single human right. Exterminating mass quantities of human beings. But because those were not americans dying everyday, the sacrifice made by our servicemembers was without merit? REALLY? Time to grow up and work on your world view. It's not all about north america.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=firstdown;539148]I don't think we can really call Iraq a democracy until we are out of there and they are having fair and honest elections on their own. The hope is that they stay a democracy and it spreads over the middle east but thats asking alot.[/quote]

Let me ask you this. Would you call Germany circa 1976 a democracy? Remember our troops were there. Our influence was certainly there. It had no solid tradition, without United States soldiers staying there for democracy to take hold. In fact, one could easily devise an alternate history where another sphere of influence prevailed and Germany became a socialist state. If the rights which we cherish are indeed rights that are inalienable (i read that somewhere) then us maintaining a sphere of influence to protect and extend those rights has merit and value.

Patriotic Rant follows:

NO OTHER COUNTRY IN THE LAST 1000 YEARS, has impacted in as positive a way, this world's course, as the United States of America. Hundreds of Thousands of Americans have given their life for the ultimate belief that every person on this earth has sanctity and faith and merit solely because that person was born. We have fought many a good fight in order to protect the world from the tyranny of the few, even while suffering the vitriolic attacks of those who hate us. Seriously, if we are an oppressing/occupying force we could rule this world by brute force, but we seek counsel, we listen to dissent, we work with every government that allows their citizens to have basic human dignity. Yes we do make mistakes, we assume our way is right, we sometimes do bone-headed moves, but we do not OCCUPY Iraq. Go ask a West German citizen which country they wanted to have on their side, go ask an East German, guess what both will say they want the Americans. Go travel on the road from west germany to berlin, see what happens when you get into an oppressed country's area. Their land was used and cast off, their people had what was theirs taken from them and given to the oppressing country.
end patriotic rant

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

Welcome back BB.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;539169]Let me ask you this. Would you call Germany circa 1976 a democracy? Remember our troops were there. Our influence was certainly there. It had no solid tradition, without United States soldiers staying there for democracy to take hold. In fact, one could easily devise an alternate history where another sphere of influence prevailed and Germany became a socialist state. If the rights which we cherish are indeed rights that are inalienable (i read that somewhere) then us maintaining a sphere of influence to protect and extend those rights has merit and value.

Patriotic Rant follows:

[B]NO OTHER COUNTRY IN THE LAST 1000 YEARS, has impacted in as positive a way, this world's course, as the United States of America. [/B]Hundreds of Thousands of Americans have given their life for the ultimate belief that every person on this earth has sanctity and faith and merit solely because that person was born. We have fought many a good fight in order to protect the world from the tyranny of the few, even while suffering the vitriolic attacks of those who hate us. Seriously, if we are an oppressing/occupying force we could rule this world by brute force, but we seek counsel, we listen to dissent, we work with every government that allows their citizens to have basic human dignity. Yes we do make mistakes, we assume our way is right, we sometimes do bone-headed moves, but we do not OCCUPY Iraq. Go ask a West German citizen which country they wanted to have on their side, go ask an East German, guess what both will say they want the Americans. Go travel on the road from west germany to berlin, see what happens when you get into an oppressed country's area. Their land was used and cast off, their people had what was theirs taken from them and given to the oppressing country.
end patriotic rant[/quote]

American century yes, American millennium? That's a bit premature don't you think seeing how we haven't even reached the half way mark yet.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

Why is it i am so misunderstood??
I did not say American Millenium??? I said IN THE LAST 1000 years. That means look at every country that has existed between 1009AD and 2009AD and look what it has done for the world, and human individual growth. You might make an argument for Britain, but that's it.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=saden1;539179]Welcome back BB.[/quote]

Thanks,good to be back. Add here I had told myself i'd stay out of the parking lot.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;539182][B]Why is it i am so misunderstood??
I did not say American Millenium??? I said IN THE LAST 1000 years[/B]. That means look at every country that has existed between 1009AD and 2009AD and look what it has done for the world, and human individual growth. You might make an argument for Britain, but that's it.[/quote]


Huh? You are not misunderstood, when you say "in the last 1000 years" you are saying the last 1000 years are in the bag for America which means it's an [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Century"]American Millenium[/URL][B].[/B]

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=saden1;539190]Huh? You are not misunderstood, when you say "in the last 1000 years" you are saying the last 1000 years are in the bag for America which means it's an [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Century"]American Millenium[/URL][B].[/B][/quote]

Jesus Christ saden, are you dense?

He's saying no country THAT HAS EXISTED SOMETIME DURING THE LAST 1000 YEARS has made a greater impact than the United States.

And he's right.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=Schneed10;539191]Jesus Christ saden, are you dense?

[B]He's saying no country THAT HAS EXISTED DURING THE LAST 1000 YEARS has made a greater impact than the United States.[/B]

And he's right.[/quote]


LOL...what part of my speech contradicts that statement?

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=saden1;539193]LOL...what part of my speech contradicts that statement?[/quote]

The part where you seem to assume that only countries who were around for 1000 years qualify for discussion.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=saden1;539190]Huh? You are not misunderstood, when you say "in the last 1000 years" you are saying the last 1000 years are in the bag for America which means it's an [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Century"]American Millenium[/URL][B].[/B][/quote]

ok, then you claim it as such, and i say to you what you said to me, we haven't been around for 1000 years hence it was not the american millenium, so your statement is false. My statement is still true. :)

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=Schneed10;539198]The part where you seem to assume that only countries who were around for 1000 years qualify for discussion.[/quote]

Oh wow, maybe, just maybe I was saying it is too premature to lay claim to the Millenium not that we're too young to lay claim to it. There's actually a real difference between the two. BTW, just because you lay claim to the Millenium doesn't make it so. The Brits, Moors, Italians, hell, even the French can put their names in the ring.

Sometimes one has to wonder if there is validity to people saying "stupid Americans, they think they're [already] the center of the universe."

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

let me re-phrase it Saden. if you rate every country that has existed since 1009AD, on a positive/negative effect on the world population, my claim was that the net + effects the US has had is the largest.
Britain, I would say could make a strong case as well, but in world wide context, i think my original statement is true. certainly countries have been around longer and if the US still holds about the same relative position in 2709 then some may call 1700 to 2700 the American Millenium, but I only spoke of the "societal footprint" (my term, but feel free to put a link behind it to a nice big sasquatch picture that'd be cool)
I am not claiming an American Millenium.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

My problem is with making claims without doing the work required. if a Brit made the same claim I would have a problem with it too. I don't know how you can claim America made the biggest sociatal foodprint seeing how civil rights were assured for all Americans in the 60s.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=saden1;539224]My problem is with making claims without doing the work required. if a Brit made the same claim I would have a problem with it too. I don't know how you can claim America made the biggest sociatal foodprint seeing how civil rights were assured for all Americans in the 60s.[/quote]CRedskins is right. You have shown no evidence to the contradict his statement.
[B]"NO OTHER COUNTRY IN THE LAST 1000 YEARS, has impacted in as positive a way, this world's course, as the United States of America....t[/B]he ultimate belief that every person on this earth has sanctity and faith and merit solely because that person was born. We have fought many a good fight in order to protect the world from the tyranny of the few....."

I know you are non-religious, but the belief that the rights of people are endowed by their Creator and not a king, ruling class, or government is a major shift in thought. If you look specifically at the last 30 years the number of governments that have changed to democracies from monarchies / communism / etc. it should make any American proud that we led the way and had a hand in making this possible.

The founders created a country of freedom, and the U.S. has grown into a place for immigrants to make a better life for themselves and their families, we've led the world in technological and industrial advances in the last 200 years,we were the major factor in winning WWI, defeating Nazism, and Communism. We're now the leader in a struggle to defeat fundamentalist Islam. We could have easily taken over the strategic resources in the world anytime after 1990 and made most other countries do as we wished. But we didn't because we believe in their right to determine their own fate. Name another country that has had more power yet let others live free and done as much good. And I would also argue that we've worked to correct our own social injustices rather than they be corrected by an outside force.

C'mon saden wave the flag for once and acknowledge the accomplishments of our great nation. I mean you can even hang your hat on Al Gore creating the Internet.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=saden1;539224]My problem is with making claims without doing the work required. if a Brit made the same claim I would have a problem with it too. I don't know how you can claim America made the biggest sociatal foodprint seeing how civil rights were assured for all Americans in the 60s.[/quote]

and maybe that's the difference, saden. I do respect your thoughts and opinions, but i think anyone who denies the rights and freedoms that the United States has brought about through out the world in such a short span of time as 200 years (even as we fought about it here at home), simply doesn't want to. (kinda like BHA and Campbell, or GTripp and DHall you just want to hate and no amount of discussion will change that)

Sure we struggle here as well but we have set ideals that are a pretty high bar, equality of man/woman white/black/hispanic, atheist/muslim/christian/jew, we strive towards the ideal that all are equal, and even as we strive, we acknowledge our flaws, we seek to re-define to allow for greater equality. And we take this throughout the world. and socially, women have greater say, blacks have greater say muslims have greater say, because we have said our ideals are that all are equal. I look at what America did after WWII and i say wow, show me a country that sacrificed it's empire for its ideal. Rome didn't, Russia certainly didn't - even Britain didn't. The caesar's ruled with their armies, Russia ruled with a secret police, britain used its navy. We do not rule with our military, although certainly it is a part of our political toolkit. Our army's might has been restrained by an ideal, that civil law overrules military might. Have oppressed Iraq, no. Did we oppress Europe after WWII no. Could we have, heck yes. America could impose far more military strength then we have ever shown. But we plead our case to the UN, we allow world leaders to have equal and independent thought, we restrain a force that could easily reduce our enemies because we show compassion for the innocent. Could we not carpet bomb afghanistan, and destroy iran's nuclear facilities? yes, but we restrain ourselves by civil laws and rules of war.

We have done the work, but that work is a forever evolving (hey i do believe in evolution -cool) landscape of cultural rules and societal ideals, that we as a nation have sought, imperfectly to uphold and promote. As no less a character than Superman would say:

[B][SIZE="6"][COLOR=RED]TRUTH,[/COLOR] [COLOR=RED]JUSTICE[/COLOR] [COLOR=BLUE]AND THE AMERICAN WAY[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[YT]ELuOUEmk7ZM&feature=related[/YT]

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;539227][B]"...we were the major factor in winning WWI, defeating Nazism, and Communism." [/B]

C'mon saden wave the flag for once and acknowledge the accomplishments of our great nation.[/quote]

There's been a lot said in this thread since I last logged in. And to be honest, I've had this foreign policy argument so many times before that I've begun to tire of it. But the bolded statement above is one of the main examples of why many people need to brush up on their history of World War I. It really is the forgotten war, and much of what we see in the world today is a direct result of it.

Slingin Sammy 33 -- Nazism didn't begin to take hold until the 1920's. The Russian Revolution of 1917, which enabled the communists to take control was a response to WWI. Lenin was able to take over because he knew the Russians wanted to get out of it. The Russians, Germans, French, British and Austro-Hungarians had fought to a stalemate, with all sides seeing thousands of deserters who had had enough.

Only with Woodrow Wilson's dreadful decision to get the U.S. involved did the war continue on -- that lead to the annihilation of the German people thanks to the Treaty of Versailles, which gave rise to the Fuhrer. As Winston Churchill said years later:

[I]"America should have minded her own business and stayed out of the World War. If you hadn’t entered the war the Allies would have made peace with Germany in the Spring of 1917. Had we made peace then there would have been no collapse in Russia followed by Communism, no breakdown in Italy followed by Fascism, and Germany would not have signed the Versailles Treaty, which has enthroned Nazism in Germany. If America had stayed out of the war, all these ‘isms’ wouldn’t to-day be sweeping the continent of Europe and breaking down parliamentary government, and if England had made peace early in 1917, it would have saved over one million British, French, American, and other lives." [/I]

So, as Americans we sometimes need to understand that we are a government of men. That men make mistakes. That there are unintended consequences. And yes, sometimes, it's better to step away, and let things take their natural course. We can't always be the hero.

On a side note, how is it that while we're so busy waving the flag, we can't stop for a minute and put ourselves into the shoes of other people across the world? I use this example all the time, and no one, especially the flag-wavers, ever has an answer for it -- if we're so great, so high and mighty, what were we doing in 1953 when we overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran and installed the Shah? Did we not think that this action might have unintended consequences? Do people ever stop to wonder just why those hostages were taken in 1979?

People, please for the love of God - put down the flag, read a history book and think for YOURSELVES.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=wolfeskins;538959]sometimes going to war is the correct thing to do regardless of if you have a loved one in the military or not. thats what the military is for. thats their job, it's in their contract. if they're called upon to go to war then they go. i supported going to war in iraq , your jackass statement makes it sound like the only reason i and anyone else that supports going to war only support it because i/we do not have a loved one in the military.[/quote]

War very rarely is "the correct thing to do" especially when the United States is concerned. And yes, too many people in this country think casually of it when proportionally speaking their loved ones weren't at risk of fighting it in the first place.

If more people actually had to face the prospect of seeing their son, daughter, wife or husband come home in a body bag or alive with their legs blown off, I think you'd see a much different attitude about war in general.

And that's not a "jackass statement" -- it's the goddamn truth.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=Beemnseven;539283]There's been a lot said in this thread since I last logged in. And to be honest, I've had this foreign policy argument so many times before that I've begun to tire of it. But the bolded statement above is one of the main examples of why many people need to brush up on their history of World War I. It really is the forgotten war, and much of what we see in the world today is a direct result of it.

Slingin Sammy 33 -- Nazism didn't begin to take hold until the 1920's. The Russian Revolution of 1917, which enabled the communists to take control was a response to WWI. Lenin was able to take over because he knew the Russians wanted to get out of it. The Russians, Germans, French, British and Austro-Hungarians had fought to a stalemate, with all sides seeing thousands of deserters who had had enough.

Only with Woodrow Wilson's dreadful decision to get the U.S. involved did the war continue on -- that lead to the annihilation of the German people thanks to the Treaty of Versailles, which gave rise to the Fuhrer. As Winston Churchill said years later:

[I]"America should have minded her own business and stayed out of the World War. If you hadn’t entered the war the Allies would have made peace with Germany in the Spring of 1917. Had we made peace then there would have been no collapse in Russia followed by Communism, no breakdown in Italy followed by Fascism, and Germany would not have signed the Versailles Treaty, which has enthroned Nazism in Germany. If America had stayed out of the war, all these ‘isms’ wouldn’t to-day be sweeping the continent of Europe and breaking down parliamentary government, and if England had made peace early in 1917, it would have saved over one million British, French, American, and other lives." [/I]

So, as Americans we sometimes need to understand that we are a government of men. That men make mistakes. That there are unintended consequences. And yes, sometimes, it's better to step away, and let things take their natural course. We can't always be the hero.

On a side note, how is it that while we're so busy waving the flag, we can't stop for a minute and put ourselves into the shoes of other people across the world? I use this example all the time, and no one, especially the flag-wavers, ever has an answer for it -- if we're so great, so high and mighty, what were we doing in 1953 when we overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran and installed the Shah? Did we not think that this action might have unintended consequences? Do people ever stop to wonder just why those hostages were taken in 1979?

People, please for the love of God - put down the flag, read a history book and think for YOURSELVES.[/quote]

It seems you decided to pick someones opinion to make the US look like we caused the problems. I'm sure it had nothing to do with Germeny sinking our neutural ships or them trying to get Mexico involved which is known as the "The Zimmermann Note".

If I'm correct in 1917 the German army was advancing on the French and British and there was no signs of any peice.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=Beemnseven;539283] Do people ever stop to wonder just why those hostages were taken in 1979?

[/quote]

For the same reason hostages are always taken. To give the hostage takers leverage. The day they took those hostages, the Redskins lost to the Steelers 35 - 7. Tough day in Washington. Now back to BeemnSeven to tell us all about Mr. Mossadeq and that awful C.I.A.

What the **** happened to my flag...

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=70Chip;539310]For the same reason hostages are always taken. To give the hostage takers leverage. The day they took those hostages, the Redskins lost to the Steelers 35 - 7. Tough day in Washington. Now back to BeemnSeven to tell us all about Mr. Mossadeq and that awful C.I.A.

What the **** happened to my flag...[/quote]

Talking about flags. My parents live on the water and the home across the river is on a long point of land that sticks out into the river. The guy put up this 50' pole (not sure how long it is) and has this hugh American flag flying which is lit up at night. Its one of those things you have to see but on a night with a slight wind its just amazing looking.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=Beemnseven;539283]...But the bolded statement above is one of the main examples of why many people need to brush up on their history of World War I. It really is the forgotten war, and much of what we see in the world today is a direct result of it.

Slingin Sammy 33 -- Nazism didn't begin to take hold until the 1920's. The Russian Revolution of 1917, which enabled the communists to take control was a response to WWI. Lenin was able to take over because he knew the Russians wanted to get out of it. The Russians, Germans, French, British and Austro-Hungarians had fought to a stalemate, with all sides seeing thousands of deserters who had had enough.

Only with Woodrow Wilson's dreadful decision to get the U.S. involved did the war continue on -- that lead to the annihilation of the German people thanks to the Treaty of Versailles, which gave rise to the Fuhrer. As Winston Churchill said years later:

[I]"America should have minded her own business and stayed out of the World War. If you hadn’t entered the war the Allies would have made peace with Germany in the Spring of 1917. Had we made peace then there would have been no collapse in Russia followed by Communism, no breakdown in Italy followed by Fascism, and Germany would not have signed the Versailles Treaty, which has enthroned Nazism in Germany. If America had stayed out of the war, all these ‘isms’ wouldn’t to-day be sweeping the continent of Europe and breaking down parliamentary government, and if England had made peace early in 1917, it would have saved over one million British, French, American, and other lives." [/I]

So, as Americans we sometimes need to understand that we are a government of men. That men make mistakes. That there are unintended consequences. And yes, sometimes, it's better to step away, and let things take their natural course. We can't always be the hero.

On a side note, how is it that while we're so busy waving the flag, we can't stop for a minute and put ourselves into the shoes of other people across the world? I use this example all the time, and no one, especially the flag-wavers, ever has an answer for it -- if we're so great, so high and mighty, what were we doing in 1953 when we overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran and installed the Shah? Did we not think that this action might have unintended consequences? Do people ever stop to wonder just why those hostages were taken in 1979?

People, please for the love of God - put down the flag, read a history book and think for YOURSELVES.[/quote]
Please for the love of God - if you don't want to wave the flag, just don't. No one needs a lecture about the U.S. being perfect, no one ever said we were. No one needs to be accused of not being able to think for themselves either.

Don't warp historical fact to support your weak argument/viewpoint of the U.S. The U.S. didn't force Germany to break the Sussex pledge while the German Chancellor warned this would bring the U.S. into the war. As far as Churchill damning the U.S. on involvement in the war...it was British Intel who forwarded the Zimmerman info to the U.S. for the specific reason of bring us to their aid. This was a declared war, approved by Congress, so there were a lot more folks than just Wilson who thought the war was a good idea.

Also, don't accuse others of being ignorant of history. I clearly understand Nazism didn't take hold until after WWI. I was refering to a historical timeline in which we saved Europe from German takeover in WWI, again in WWII (while also defeating Japan), and defeating the Soviet Union (spread of Communism) in the Cold War. By winning these wars we saved tens of millions of lives that would've been lost had we stayed out of these conflicts. How many people were murdered by the Nazis before they were defeated? Ask the Koreans, Chinese and Philippine people how things would've been under Japanese rule. How many people were murdered by Stalin, Pol Pot, Castro, and other countries that were taken over by Communist regimes?

To your Iran point, maybe if Carter had supported the Shah when he needed it, we wouldn't have had the hostage crisis either. Maybe radical Islam wouldn't have taken hold and we wouldn't have a potentially nuclear Iran headed by an anti-semitic, anti-U.S. regime. Your arguments supporting your isolationist views are not very good.

No one ever said the U.S. was perfect, however when you net everything out at the end of the day...again CRedskins is right.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;539424]No one ever said the U.S. was perfect, however when you net everything out at the end of the day...[B]again CRedskins is right.[/B][/quote]

A first in his lifetime. Ba-da-ping!

Sorry for the hijack. Please continue with intelligent discussion now.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

To be frank the problem with you folks is that you're intellectually lazy. You want to claim thing merely because you think it and without doing the scholarly work necessary to take home the trophy. I don't mean to be a prick or an America hater, I just want to be fair and honest. I can't refute your claims as far as being the "greatest [..] in the last 1000 years" because that would require doing a Ph. D thesis, you know, using scholarly methods and doing it big. I'm also surprised that you guys know all you need to know about other countries to do a fair assessment, I sure as shit don't. Does this all make sense?

If that doesn't make sense then I'm going to roll the dice and go with "in the context of 1000 years America makes the top 5 but not #1 in societal contribution and host of other matters."

p.s. The British were responsible for spreading the English common law around the glob and the French gave the world the Napoleonic Code. Perhaps that's not as positive as spreading democracy?

p.p.s. I don't believe America is a special predestined god's best country. Overall America is a great country for most, a good country for some, and a shitty country for others.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=saden1;539576]To be frank the problem with you folks is that you're intellectually lazy. You want to claim thing merely because you think it and without doing the scholarly work necessary to take home the trophy. I don't mean to a prick or an America hater, I just want to be fair and honest. I can't refute your claims as far as being the "greatest [..] in the last 1000 years" because that would require doing a Ph. D thesis, you know, using scholarly methods and doing it big. I'm also surprised that you guys know all you need to know about other countries to do a fair assessment, I sure as *** don't. Does this all make sense?

If that doesn't make sense then I'm going to roll the dice and go with "in the context of 1000 years America makes the top 5 but not #1 in societal contribution and host of other matters."

p.s. The British were responsible for spreading the English common law around the glob and the French gave the world the Napoleonic Code. Perhaps that's not as positive as spreading democracy?

p.p.s. I don't believe America is a special predestined god's best country. Overall America is a great country for most, a good country for some, and a shitty for others.[/quote]
1] in terms of knowing every country etc, I think it is reasonable to look at the extent the world has changed and make certain statements such as romania, austria, laos, zimbabwe, ecuador, canada, greenland, or about 150 -200 other of the nations that have come and (in some cases gone) over the last 1000 years have not had a global impact. So we can narrow the last and look at the "big" players.

2] I already had given a nod to Britain, I would not include France, but it certainly could be a good debate, you could possibly through Japan and or China in to it, but I think their negatives both are pretty high. Heck you might throw the Ottoman Empire in there. So if you say top 5, and I say top 3 we are oh so close.

3] We found common ground!! I agree America is a not special predestined god's best country.

4] then again, I think anyone who thinks America is shitty has not explored some of the shittier places in the world. (if you are defining shitty for others as less than 5% then i could agree(without doing a graduate thesis) with that too, but of course even the most idyllic countries have some people living in shitty conditions. Oh and please don't misread what I am saying: If I could choose any country in the world to live I think currently, Japan and maybe Norway (except it is too cold) would be above the United States, but I am very thankful for my life as it is now.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

I found this take from POTUs while oversees on American [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exceptionalism"]exceptionalism[/URL] very interesting and I like his answer:

[quote][B]Q:[/B] [C]ould I ask you whether you subscribe, as many of your predecessors have, to the school of 'American exceptionalism' that sees America as uniquely qualified to lead the world, or do you have a slightly different philosophy?

[B]A:[/B] I believe in American exceptionalism, just as I suspect that the Brits believe in British exceptionalism and the Greeks believe in Greek exceptionalism. I'm enormously proud of my country and its role and history in the world. If you think about the site of this summit and what it means, I don't think America should be embarrassed to see evidence of the sacrifices of our troops, the enormous amount of resources that were put into Europe postwar, and our leadership in crafting an Alliance that ultimately led to the unification of Europe. We should take great pride in that.

And if you think of our current situation, the United States remains the largest economy in the world. We have unmatched military capability. And I think that we have a core set of values that are enshrined in our Constitution, in our body of law, in our democratic practices, in our belief in free speech and equality, that, though imperfect, are exceptional.

Now, the fact that I am very proud of my country and I think that we've got a whole lot to offer the world does not lessen my interest in recognizing the value and wonderful qualities of other countries, or recognizing that we're not always going to be right, or that other people may have good ideas, or that in order for us to work collectively, all parties have to compromise and that includes us.

And so I see no contradiction between believing that America has a continued extraordinary role in leading the world towards peace and prosperity and recognizing that that leadership is incumbent, depends on, our ability to create partnerships because we create partnerships because we can't solve these problems alone.[/quote]

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

The problem with criticizing this idea of American-exceptionalism - our putative inflated sense of self-importance - is that it is in no way unique to America. Go to any country and people say the same thing: thank GOD we are from here, and not somewhere else. I've been to Thailand, where people sleep with their kids on the streets and yet still declare honestly, it could be worse, at least we are part of God's chosen race; I've been to Korea where everything is dirty and smelly and the weather sucks and people say, sucks to be you, being from that crazy America country; and don't get me started on the stuck up French, in whose country I've also spent some time. Pretty much anywhere you go, with the exception perhaps, [I]perhaps[/I], being the poorest of the poor, people are going to have an exaggerated sense of self-importance. This is human nature.

So when American liberals decry this tendency as somehow being unique to American conservatives, I have to wonder if they've ever been outside of the country.

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

I like his answer because the god card wasn't played to support American existentialism. Exceptionalism is a human nature and it's a [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_defenses"]defensive mechanism[/URL]. I am reminded by something Dr. James Cone said regarding religion which I find profound and relevant to the belief in the exceptionalism of ones nation (you can easily replace religion with exceptionalisim and god with country):

[quote][R]eligion has been that one place where you have an imagination that no one can control. And so, as long as you know that you are a human being and nobody can take that away from you, then God is that reality in your life that enables you to know that.

-James Cone[/quote]

Re: 6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky
 

[quote=saden1;543440]I found this take from POTUs while oversees on American [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exceptionalism"]exceptionalism[/URL] very interesting and I like his answer:[/quote]

no offense Saden, but that is the same basic take as what I and a lot of others were saying, and yet if it comes from Obama, you are good to go with it, but on this board we heard alot of negativity when we made the same statements.