Re: HOF Candidates
 

I'm having a hard time thinking of an AFL player who made it but didn't play at least one year in the NFL. :confused:

Re: HOF Candidates
 

[quote=GTripp0012;566964]Honest question: should LaDainian Tomlinson be a hall of famer? How about Champ Bailey?

That, to me, is the big question of our era. Obviously, Manning and Brady are easy, along with Brett Favre, Derrick Brooks, Marvin Harrison, Tony Gonzalez and Michael Strahan. But there's other players who should be hall of famers who you simply couldn't put in if you limit the honor to only the best players ever.

Do you draw the line at those 5 time pro bowlers? Or do they get in too?[/quote]

I'd say yes on LT but no on Champ. What has he done? He's a reputation player his whole career but never did anything to significantly impact any team he's been on. What's his signature season or his signature play? He's been good but I don't put him in the Rod Woodson/Darrell Green/Deion category.

Re: HOF Candidates
 

I still think Jake Scott should have gone in years ago. Along with the all pro awards we still remember SB VII where he was the MVP.

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[quote=irish;566913]I dont think you can put Rose & McGuire in the same category because Rose broke the only rule baseball really cared about, gambling. There are signs in every locker room saying no gambling, Rose knew he shouldnt bet but he did anyway.

Roids werent illegal (in baseball) when the ball were flying out of the park so IMO, McGuire didnt break any baseball rules so to me he could go in.[/quote]

Mark McGwire and these guys broke the law. Baseball doesn't have to specifically state every rule. I never understood why the players union made the players seem like they were immune from the law, like a foreign country. It was like everybody knew people were using steroids, but nobody did anything and they always used the excuse the players union is too strong, like they didn't have to follow the laws of the US. If Mark McGwire and all these guys didn't do anything wrong then how come they all lied about it. I think all these guys should not get into the HOF. They'll have to live with the fact that they cheated and they didn't get in for the rest of their life. The most important thing is that kids will learn that it's not acceptable and it's not going to get them anywhere and these guys really regret what they did.

Re: HOF Candidates
 

[quote=53Fan;567046]I'm having a hard time thinking of an AFL player who made it but didn't play at least one year in the NFL. :confused:[/quote]

The answer is...

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Shaw]Billy Shaw - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

I never heard of him either

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[quote=Mattyk72;567089]The answer is...

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Shaw]Billy Shaw - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

I never heard of him either[/quote]

He was drafted by the Cowgirls and the Bills and chose to play with the Bills. Never would have guessed it.

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[quote=Mattyk72;567089]The answer is...

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Shaw]Billy Shaw - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

I never heard of him either[/quote]

Outstanding question! I enjoy football history. Thanks Matty!

BTW if Shaw turned down the Cowpies, he had good taste. :)

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[quote=Paintrain;567049]I'd say yes on LT but no on Champ. What has he done? He's a reputation player his whole career but never did anything to significantly impact any team he's been on. What's his signature season or his signature play? He's been good but I don't put him in the Rod Woodson/Darrell Green/Deion category.[/quote]Well, that's just the thing: Champ's case is similar to LdT's, in that they were the premier player at their position for many, many years. However, neither was a trancendental player who oozed greatness. There have been better than LdT, and there will be better in the future. Like Champ, he has no specific claim to fame or great team-related successes to push him in.

It all comes down to where you draw the line. By Irish's definition, neither Tomlinson nor Bailey makes the Hall. I would put both of them in, because I don't think the Hall should exclude great players regardless of the circumstances.

The only argument I would use against Hall canidacy is that player 'x' was not a "great" player. Like Jim Plunkett. He was not a great player, though he has an argument for the hall based on four years in the early 80's.

Re: HOF Candidates
 

[quote=GTripp0012;567107]Well, that's just the thing: Champ's case is similar to LdT's, in that they were the premier player at their position for many, many years. However, neither was a trancendental player who oozed greatness. There have been better than LdT, and there will be better in the future. Like Champ, he has no specific claim to fame or great team-related successes to push him in.

It all comes down to where you draw the line. By Irish's definition, neither Tomlinson nor Bailey makes the Hall. I would put both of them in, because I don't think the Hall should exclude great players regardless of the circumstances.

The only argument I would use against Hall canidacy is that player 'x' was not a "great" player. Like Jim Plunkett. He was not a great player, though he has an argument for the hall based on four years in the early 80's.[/quote]

Wow man, I don't know about that in regards to Tomlinson. He's only had one year in his 8 year career where he rushed for less than 1200 yards, never scored less than 10 TD in a season, has the rushing TD record year with 28, never less than 50 receptions in a year. I'd feel pretty comfortable calling him the best RB since Emmitt and definitely the best RB this decade.

I guess I don't know if I'd consider Champ as [B][I][U]the[/U][/I][/B] premier player at his position for an extended period of time. Early in his career as a Redskin and his first year in Denver-yes, I'd agree but his last season here teams threw at him with no fear. Outside of his first season in Denver teams have gone at him as well. For most of his career you could name a few CB that you would put above or on the same level as him (C. Woodson, Asomugha, Ronde Barber, Clements). He's in the discussion, no doubt, but I just don't know if I consider Champ a Hall of Fame player.

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[quote=an23dy;567076]Mark McGwire and these guys broke the law. Baseball doesn't have to specifically state every rule. I never understood why the players union made the players seem like they were immune from the law, like a foreign country. It was like everybody knew people were using steroids, but nobody did anything and they always used the excuse the players union is too strong, like they didn't have to follow the laws of the US. If Mark McGwire and all these guys didn't do anything wrong then how come they all lied about it. I think all these guys should not get into the HOF. They'll have to live with the fact that they cheated and they didn't get in for the rest of their life. The most important thing is that kids will learn that it's not acceptable and it's not going to get them anywhere and these guys really regret what they did.[/quote]

Baseball doesn't even follow the nations' antitrust rules clearly the laws that apply to the rest of us don't apply to the league or its players.

In all seriousness though a) baseball would be a bit hypocritical not letting these guys in because they know that, especially after the 1994, two things helped bring baseball back-Ripken and the long ball. The league office can't get on its high horse all it wants now but it knew what was happening with Bonds, McGwire, Sosa back then but why stop it when those 500 foot blasts were putting fans in the seats and more money in the owners' pockets? and b) what about a guy like Ferguson Jenkins, who broke the law by possessing and using cocaine? He's in the Hall of Fame. Is what he did ok because it wasn't steroids?

Re: HOF Candidates
 

[quote=irish;566913]I dont think you can put Rose & McGuire in the same category because Rose broke the only rule baseball really cared about, gambling. There are signs in every locker room saying no gambling, Rose knew he shouldnt bet but he did anyway.

Roids werent illegal (in baseball) when the ball were flying out of the park so IMO, McGuire didnt break any baseball rules so to me he could go in.[/quote]

You certainly make a point. I was one of a few that defended McGwire because he admitted to using Andro, which was a LEGAL substance. Although he has been implicated in using other PED's.
Funny how MLB was not OK with gambling, but OK with players beefing up using substances.

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[quote=SmootSmack;567150]Baseball doesn't even follow the nations' antitrust rules clearly the laws that apply to the rest of us don't apply to the league or its players.[/quote]

Keep in mind, we always blame "baseball", when in fact it's cause there is a complete cancer in MLB, called the Players Association. If they didn't have certain things they would walk. Don't forget, they finally saw the error of their ways and allowed for testing in 05. One of the agreements was to not allow tests before 05 to NEVER be made public. The PA is the main reason for the PED era. The owners didn't help by not demanding it no matter what, but they didn't want the best players in the world sitting out, that would have hurt their pocket book, so they accepted demands. The PA needs to be abolished. It doesn't help baseball at all, it's once gave baseball a black eye, now it gave baseball cancer.

[quote]what about a guy like Ferguson Jenkins, who broke the law by possessing and using cocaine? He's in the Hall of Fame. Is what he did ok because it wasn't steroids?[/quote]

This brings up an interesting point...maybe all the HOF's should put ground rules in place that you won't be accepted if you are not a decent member of society. Of course that could cause legal ramifications, but maybe if the HOF's took a stronger stance, we wouldn't need to debate these things.

Re: HOF Candidates
 

[quote=SmootSmack;567150]Baseball doesn't even follow the nations' antitrust rules clearly the laws that apply to the rest of us don't apply to the league or its players.

In all seriousness though a) baseball would be a bit hypocritical not letting these guys in because they know that, especially after the 1994, two things helped bring baseball back-Ripken and the long ball. The league office can't get on its high horse all it wants now but it knew what was happening with Bonds, McGwire, Sosa back then but why stop it when those 500 foot blasts were putting fans in the seats and more money in the owners' pockets? and b) [B]what about a guy like Ferguson Jenkins, who broke the law by possessing and using cocaine? He's in the Hall of Fame. Is what he did ok because it wasn't steroids?[/B][/quote]

Personally, I don't think Jenkins should be in, unless he worked to be a better person after. I think Michael Irvin is a good example of this, because he made mistakes, but became a better person after and became a role model. I think the difference between Jenkins and the steroid guys is you can directly point to the fact that the steroids helped make the stats that these guys put up, but the cocaine is different. You never know if they would have put up HOF numbers if they didn't take steroids.

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[quote=Paintrain;567149]I guess I don't know if I'd consider Champ as [B][I][U]the[/U][/I][/B] premier player at his position for an extended period of time. Early in his career as a Redskin and his first year in Denver-yes, I'd agree but his last season here teams threw at him with no fear. Outside of his first season in Denver teams have gone at him as well. For most of his career you could name a few CB that you would put above or on the same level as him (C. Woodson, Asomugha, Ronde Barber, Clements). He's in the discussion, no doubt, but I just don't know if I consider Champ a Hall of Fame player.[/quote]I do think that the same argument fits for Tomlinson, in that, you wouldn't have taken him over Portis + the Broncos offensive line, you probably wouldn't have taken him over Shaun Alexander in 2004 and 2005, or Larry Johnson in 2005. What Tomlinson has going for him is that one MVP (which probably should have gone to Peyton, but I digress), and the fact that he's been the common link stretching from Marshall Faulk and Preist Holmes to Brian Westbrook and Adrian Peterson.

Which, I think, is what the argument for Champ relies on. He was good in 2000 when Troy Vincent was the premier CB in the NFL, and he was just as good in 2006, when Nnamdi Asomugha was the premier CB.

Charles Woodson though has an intriguing hall of fame case, because there was a four year period in the middle of his career where nobody really knew his whereabouts (it was the Raiders training room). But he's a 5 time pro bowler these days, and that could reach 6 or 7, in which case, if he strings togethether elite apperances in 2009 and 2010 as a veteran, I'd say yes, Woodson is a hall of famer.

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[quote=GTripp0012;567299]I do think that the same argument fits for Tomlinson, in that, you wouldn't have taken him over Portis + the Broncos offensive line, you probably wouldn't have taken him over Shaun Alexander in 2004 and 2005, or Larry Johnson in 2005. What Tomlinson has going for him is that one MVP (which probably should have gone to Peyton, but I digress), and the fact that he's been the common link stretching from Marshall Faulk and Preist Holmes to Brian Westbrook and Adrian Peterson.

Which, I think, is what the argument for Champ relies on. He was good in 2000 when Troy Vincent was the premier CB in the NFL, and he was just as good in 2006, when Nnamdi Asomugha was the premier CB.

Charles Woodson though has an intriguing hall of fame case, because there was a four year period in the middle of his career where nobody really knew his whereabouts (it was the Raiders training room). But he's a 5 time pro bowler these days, and that could reach 6 or 7, in which case, if he strings togethether elite apperances in 2009 and 2010 as a veteran, I'd say yes, Woodson is a hall of famer.[/quote]

Interesting take on LT, I hadn't really considered that at any point during the decade he wasn't far and away the top player at his position. I guess I was looking at it from a standpoint of sustained greatness. I suppose if you use that same scope then Champ does meet that criteria.

That's the problem I have with Kurt Warner, is he a Hall of Famer? He wasn't great for a sustainable period of time but if you look at the past 10 years he's in the conversation with Manning, Brady in terms of accomplishments (4 playoff appearances, 3 Super Bowl) and has put up some serious numbers. I'd put him in the conversation for QB of the decade behind Manning and Brady but ahead of McNabb and Big Ben.

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[quote=jsarno;567218]You certainly make a point. I was one of a few that defended McGwire because he admitted to using Andro, which was a LEGAL substance. Although he has been implicated in using other PED's.
Funny how MLB was not OK with gambling, but OK with players beefing up using substances.[/quote]

MLB wasnt ok with gambling because gambling almost brought down the game in 1919. I dont think MLB was ok with players doing it but like another post says, the players union has a say in how things happen.

I do think there is a double standard when it comes to baseball and roids. When a baseball player (especially a high profile one) uses roids its almost a national scandal where the public demands they be banned for like but when an NFL player is caught (I think it was Shawn Merriman but I know it was a charger a few years ago) they get 2 weeks off, are back in time for the playoffs, and there is almost no public outcry. Its like the public expects football players to use and so when they get caught its expected.

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Show me a sport that hasn't been tainted by performance enhancing drugs at some point. Yet for some reason the purists act like baseball is supposed to be so above this.

I was at the baseball Hall of Fame over the weekend and overheard a guy talking to his son about how Rafael Palmeiro cheated and took steroids, and he was talking with such disgust. It would be wise if the voters just accepted the steroid era and voted in the guys that were the best players during the time. To shut them all out when it was pretty obvious what was going on at the time is insane and hypocrisy at it's best.

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[quote=Mattyk72;567492]Show me a sport that hasn't been tainted by performance enhancing drugs at some point. Yet for some reason the purists act like baseball is supposed to be so above this.

I was at the baseball Hall of Fame over the weekend and overheard a guy talking to his son about how Rafael Palmeiro cheated and took steroids, and he was talking with such disgust. It would be wise if the voters just accepted the steroid era and voted in the guys that were the best players during the time. To shut them all out when it was pretty obvious what was going on at the time is insane and hypocrisy at it's best.[/quote]

Good point Matty, why is no one screaming for the heads of players from the 80's,70's, and 60's?.......there were steroids back then but I guess that was ok.You know Reggie Jackson must have been on something.
Better yet lets look at Lyle Alzzado or John Matuzack(sp) both admitted (after) that they had used steriods and that it help lead directly to their early deaths.

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[quote=Mattyk72;567492]Show me a sport that hasn't been tainted by performance enhancing drugs at some point. Yet for some reason the purists act like baseball is supposed to be so above this.

I was at the baseball Hall of Fame over the weekend and overheard a guy talking to his son about how Rafael Palmeiro cheated and took steroids, and he was talking with such disgust. It would be wise if the voters just accepted the steroid era and voted in the guys that were the best players during the time. To shut them all out when it was pretty obvious what was going on at the time is insane and hypocrisy at it's best.[/quote]

I totally agree. As much as people like to dis baseball I think this purist attitude comes from the hold that baseball has on the national sports psyche that no other sport has. For a lot of people baseball is the first sport a lot of kids play and the Dad & kid at a ballgame is a fond memory in a lot of minds. Baseball may not have the passionate following that football has but it does have deep happy memories for lots of sports fans in the USA.

I think the MLB record book should have a preamble that adresses the fact that at some point the ball was dead, then it was lively, then the pitchers mound was lowered, then most parks had astroturf, then players in large numbers took PEDs and each of these changes had an impact on the game and the records. When looking at this book please keep these facts in mind.

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[quote=dmek25;566830]no way he gets in. no one should be rewarded for dirty play. and whats a canidate?[/quote]
[IMG]http://photos.upi.com/slideshow/lbox/2cdecf4d21737644d1b4d8937620995e/WAP2003092802.jpg[/IMG]

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[quote=irish;567486]MLB wasnt ok with gambling because gambling almost brought down the game in 1919. I dont think MLB was ok with players doing it but like another post says, the players union has a say in how things happen.[/quote]

Great point.

[quote]I do think there is a double standard when it comes to baseball and roids. When a baseball player (especially a high profile one) uses roids its almost a national scandal where the public demands they be banned for like but when an NFL player is caught (I think it was Shawn Merriman but I know it was a charger a few years ago) they get 2 weeks off, are back in time for the playoffs, and there is almost no public outcry. Its like the public expects football players to use and so when they get caught its expected.[/quote]

It's not that people expect it in football, it's that if you had to name 1 sport that is sooo far into the PED's, which would it be? Of course it's baseball. Why? Because it's no longer about the 1 or 2 guys or even 4 or 5 guys that get caught like it is in football. It's about the hundreds of guys that have used and have tainted the game over it. If the public sees only one or 2 guys getting busted in football, they are not likely to throw a tantrum. But if you see a list (like that of the failed tests in 2003 that was leaked not too long ago that had 103 or 104 players on it) that speak volumes. When players like Palmiero wave that finger at congress and say "I never took steroids, period" then tests positive, are you expecting america to turn the other cheek? It's because baseball has abused the tolerance level of usage of PEDS while football probably does a better job of hiding it, or not seeing it, therefore people think it's not a problem. I guarentee you if football started seeing 50+ players test positive, there would be an outcry.

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I think it's more so because records and stats mean more in baseball than in football. So these players going after records in baseball are more scrutinized. I mean everyone knows Dimaggio's 56 game hit streak. But off the top of your head can you say who has the NFL record for consecutive games with a reception or what that record is?

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[quote=SmootSmack;567629]I think it's more so because records and stats mean more in baseball than in football. So these players going after records in baseball are more scrutinized. I mean everyone knows Dimaggio's 56 game hit streak. But off the top of your head can you say who has the NFL record for consecutive games with a reception or what that record is?[/quote]It's Rice, and I think the record is over 100 games.

But yeah, that's a good point, whatever number it is has no significant meaning in football without significant context.

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[quote=GTripp0012;567630]It's Rice, and I think the record is over 100 games.

But yeah, that's a good point, whatever number it is has no significant meaning in football without significant context.[/quote]

It's like 275, I'm not even sure. Smart move choosing Rice for a question about a receiving record. LOL

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[quote=SmootSmack;567631]It's like 275, I'm not even sure. Smart move choosing Rice for a question about a receiving record. LOL[/quote]Ha. I happened to watch the Raiders game in 2004 where Rice didn't catch a pass. Dude was pissed.

I'm also eating rice currently, so the memory didn't need much to be jogged.

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He didn't catch a pass in week four, 1985. The next time he didn't catch a pass was week two, 2004.

By my count, that's 284 consecutive games with a catch.

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[quote=GTripp0012;567635]He didn't catch a pass in week four, 1985. The next time he didn't catch a pass was week two, 2004.

By my count, that's 284 consecutive games with a catch.[/quote]

Are you factoring in games missed? I think he missed almost the entire 1996 or 1997 season

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[quote=SmootSmack;567636]Are you factoring in games missed? I think he missed almost the entire 1996 or 1997 season[/quote]I only counted games played. 303 total, 4 before the streak, 15 after.

So 284, unless I'm missing something.

[URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RiceJe00_games.htm"]Jerry Rice Gamelogs and Game Logs - Pro-Football-Reference.com[/URL]

-EDIT- Yes, it was 16 games post streak. I was counting the game that broke the streak in that.

283, then.

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I think my struggles at math only prove your larger point.

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[quote=Mattyk72;567492]Show me a sport that hasn't been tainted by performance enhancing drugs at some point. Yet for some reason the purists act like baseball is supposed to be so above this.

I was at the baseball Hall of Fame over the weekend and overheard a guy talking to his son about how Rafael Palmeiro cheated and took steroids, and he was talking with such disgust. [B]It would be wise if the voters just accepted the steroid era and voted in the guys that were the best players during the time. To shut them all out when it was pretty obvious what was going on at the time is insane and hypocrisy at it's best.[/B][/quote]

I think we should put the responsibility on the players. These guys are grown men, they should know right and wrong and what is illegal and cheating. It doesn't matter if the people on top don't have strict testing policies. It's like if the teacher leaves the room are you going to cheat? It's not like you're gonna get caught, but you're giving yourself an unfair advantage against the people around you. It takes away from the other people that worked hard and it's selfish. Think if you were the best player or for the test example you knew the most about the material, then all these guys cheat and you get bumped down to an F or bumped out of the Hall of Fame because of it. I think it's never too late to do the right thing and not allow these guys to be rewarded for cheating.

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[quote=jsarno;567612]Great point.



It's not that people expect it in football, it's that if you had to name 1 sport that is sooo far into the PED's, which would it be? Of course it's baseball. Why? Because it's no longer about the 1 or 2 guys or even 4 or 5 guys that get caught like it is in football. It's about the hundreds of guys that have used and have tainted the game over it. If the public sees only one or 2 guys getting busted in football, they are not likely to throw a tantrum. But if you see a list (like that of the failed tests in 2003 that was leaked not too long ago that had 103 or 104 players on it) that speak volumes. When players like Palmiero wave that finger at congress and say "I never took steroids, period" then tests positive, are you expecting america to turn the other cheek? It's because baseball has abused the tolerance level of usage of PEDS while football probably does a better job of hiding it, or not seeing it, therefore people think it's not a problem. I guarentee you if football started seeing 50+ players test positive, there would be an outcry.[/quote]

I agree that baseball went beyond the public tolerance level but IMO if football did the same (I think they do but hide it better) there would be some yelling but not the outcry we saw with baseball. I think the public's underlying assumption is that football players are juicing so if they get caught its not such a big deal because everyone thinks they are doing it anyway.

I also agree with another poster that a large part of the outcry comes from how baseball is all about numbers and when someone cheated to get those numbers and break long standing records its a big deal. Football isnt as much about collecting numbers and the records arent as big a deal as baseball.

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[quote=irish;567682]I agree that baseball went beyond the public tolerance level but IMO if football did the same (I think they do but hide it better) there would be some yelling but not the outcry we saw with baseball. I think the public's underlying assumption is that football players are juicing so if they get caught its not such a big deal because everyone thinks they are doing it anyway.

I also agree with another poster that a large part of the outcry comes from how baseball is all about numbers and when someone cheated to get those numbers and break long standing records its a big deal. Football isnt as much about collecting numbers and the records arent as big a deal as baseball.[/quote]

There is no doubt that numbers have something to do with it. But I will say this, when the Patriots were trying to go 16-0 (well they did but lost in the super bowl) there were all sorts of outcrys about the "cheatriots" or "shady brady" etc. They cheated and it was national news...a huge scandal...even South Park did an episode on it cause they were going after hallowed ground in that 16-0 season. So I do see how stats can affect it, but I still think that's only a small part. That scenario provides 2 examples, we like our stats, and we don't stand for cheaters. We have no evidence of football players using PEDS and destroying the game from the inside out other than those few that get caught every year. I still think if all of sudden there are 50+ players on PEDS and more rumors about it, America would be PISSED that it's hurting the game.
Keep in mind, baseball hasn't lost a whole lot of revenue due to PEDS issues, in fact they were growing even after these issues if I recall correctly, so it's not like America is actually up in arms about this cause they are still opening their wallets. It's just verbally we are taking a stand to get integrity back into the game, and I'm sure the same would happen to football given it's dominance in popularity.