Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote=WaldSkins;583264]For the season and with two seats. I always sit in the lower level when i go and really do not know much about the club level. Im just fishing for feedback before i shell out $1400 for seats.[/quote]

221 is good section..right on the 50 it looks like. Not sure what those run but 1400 seems pretty good for two seats. Check to make sure they aren't obstructed.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote=FRPLG;583267]221 is good section..right on the 50 it looks like. Not sure what those run but 1400 seems pretty good for two seats. Check to make sure they aren't obstructed.[/quote]

Too me it seems like you get more blue collar football fans in the lower level then you would in the club seating. I'll probaly buy them if i can't find anything in the lowers. Thanks for the help.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

The Skins should take a lesson from the Cubs, another storied organization plauged with recent mediocrity, yet with a loyal and affluent fan base. The cubs sell all or most of their seat for certain non-season ticket sections, through a website, but it is open access.

Anyone can get online, wait in a lottery, and if you get picked you can buy tickets for any game/any section available, up to a certain limit on the number of tickets. With this approach, the brokers can bid, but are limited on the number of tickets, and true fans know they can get in the online lottery and have a great shot at getting a couple of seats to a game.

The team wins because they actually sell more tickets this way than forcing bundled tickets on people. The Redskins approach is similar to what Enron was doing in the energy sector, they are hiding the true demand by creating an opaque market. The fact they tell you that there is a huge waiting list is just a way to artificially bolster demand in order to coerce folks into buying bundled tickets.

What is interesting is that I think the strategy is actually counter productive. There are a ton of folks out there who would gladly pay the team to see a game who stay home due to the difficulty in procuring single game tickets. Its money left on the table that they could be getting. Instead they have to sell to brokers who really don't want all the tickets they have to buy and end up offloading many at less than face value, or not at all. Notice that for most home games there are many many seats unoccupied, yet the team claims a sellout?!?!? Those are tickets that got sold to a broker but not to a fan...if a fan's butt ain't in the seat, it isn't a sell out.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote=DCtoAZ;582998]between EBAY and STUBHUB .. isn't everything scalped these days[/quote]My thoughts, exactly.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote=Mc2guy;583277]The Skins should take a lesson from the Cubs, another storied organization plauged with recent mediocrity, yet with a loyal and affluent fan base. The cubs sell all or most of their seat for certain non-season ticket sections, through a website, but it is open access.

Anyone can get online, wait in a lottery, and if you get picked you can buy tickets for any game/any section available, up to a certain limit on the number of tickets. With this approach, the brokers can bid, but are limited on the number of tickets, and true fans know they can get in the online lottery and have a great shot at getting a couple of seats to a game.

The team wins because they actually sell more tickets this way than forcing bundled tickets on people. The Redskins approach is similar to what Enron was doing in the energy sector, they are hiding the true demand by creating an opaque market. The fact they tell you that there is a huge waiting list is just a way to artificially bolster demand in order to coerce folks into buying bundled tickets.

What is interesting is that I think the strategy is actually counter productive. There are a ton of folks out there who would gladly pay the team to see a game who stay home due to the difficulty in procuring single game tickets. Its money left on the table that they could be getting. Instead they have to sell to brokers who really don't want all the tickets they have to buy and end up offloading many at less than face value, or not at all. Notice that for most home games there are many many seats unoccupied, yet the team claims a sellout?!?!? Those are tickets that got sold to a broker but not to a fan...if a fan's butt ain't in the seat, it isn't a sell out.[/quote]
Well if the demand is so dam high for single game tickets why could I not sell the tickets to games I did not want to go to for my cost? The demand is not what people say it is and I think its because they have been just 50/50 for so long. Heck I had to sell a couple for about half what I paid and thats one of the reason I gave them up because I could not sell my extra tickets. I know this was true for a bunch of people because we have discussed it here several times. My seats were in the upper deck about 10 rows up on the 45 yard lines and I thought they where great seats. So its not like I was stuck in bad seating.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[URL="http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/09/02/redskins-take-initiative-on-report-regarding-ticket-lawsuits/"]Redskins take initiative on report regarding ticket lawsuits[/URL]

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote]In our view, the fact that most of the suite and club seat holders didn't default is irrelevant to whether the Redskins ultimately chose to file lawsuits against those who did. [B] The reality is that the Redskins have an apparent business practice of filing suit to enforce the contracts, when legal action is deemed necessary. [/B] The fact that the Redskins don't have to do it very often in relation to the entire ticket base is irrelevant.[/quote]

Does anyone think that this is an odd statement? Doesn't every business at least reserve the right to file a lawsuit to enforce legal contracts, especially when legal action is deemed necessary. If they deem legal action necessary, would not filing a lawsuit be a reasonable step towards starting that legal action.

Are we to think that only the Redskins would be so crass as to file a lawsuit against someone who is broaching their legal obligation?

And PFT says it is a non-issue that only 20-30 of these lawsuits are filed in a given year, but doesn't that mean that maybe 1 in 10,000 corporate entities face this threat.

Sorry this is a ridiculous story.

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[quote=FRPLG;583267]221 is good section..right on the 50 it looks like. Not sure what those run but 1400 seems pretty good for two seats. Check to make sure they aren't obstructed.[/quote]

I'm not entirely sure but I think any seats beyond row 12-14 of the 200 level might be obstructed because of the beams supporting the upper deck. If it's not that it's something similar.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;583291]Does anyone think that this is an odd statement? Doesn't every business at least reserve the right to file a lawsuit to enforce legal contracts, especially when legal action is deemed necessary. If they deem legal action necessary, would not filing a lawsuit be a reasonable step towards starting that legal action.

Are we to think that only the Redskins would be so crass as to file a lawsuit against someone who is broaching their legal obligation?

And PFT says it is a non-issue that only 20-30 of these lawsuits are filed in a given year, but doesn't that mean that maybe 1 in 10,000 corporate entities face this threat.

Sorry this is a ridiculous story.[/quote]
I'm with you. It seems the Post is really reaching for a story hear. I'm not even sure what i should be so called upset over. They made the appropriate actions to fix the problem. Plus i hear this happened months ago so why are we just hearing about it now? We need to support this team not try to find ways to tear it down. HTTR!

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[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/02/AR2009090203887.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2009090104025"]Washington Redskins React to Fans' Tough Luck With Tough Love - washingtonpost.com[/URL]

If you want your loyalty tested, read this article.

I love my team however the owner and his heartless business practices disgust me. I hope he is proud of himself and how he has treated the regular people who support the team which became great under someone else's watch.

Dan Snyder, you are a rich man but the end of the day, you are piece of shit. Congratulations on cursing people's lives with the football team that gave them so much joy when you weren't around.

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[quote=stu_nna;583304]I'm with you. It seems the Post is really reaching for a story hear. I'm not even sure what i should be so called upset over. They made the appropriate actions to fix the problem. Plus i hear this happened months ago so why are we just hearing about it now? We need to support this team not try to find ways to tear it down. HTTR![/quote]

Do not confuse supporting the team with supporting the greedy business practices that the owner lives by.

He picked a fight with the Washington Post. Well, just like Richard Nixon, he is getting everything he deserves.

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[quote=Lotus;583093]The article is not about the Redskins organization engaging in an illegal practice. It is about workers in the ticket office who make some extra cash for themselves by selling tickets to brokers rather than to the people on the ticket waiting list. The Redskins organization as a whole wants the tickets to go to those on the waiting list but apparently some unscrupulous folks in the ticket office have subverted the ideal scenario. So when we read that these individuals have been "disciplined," it is fair to guess that this means "fired."[/quote]

Don't believe any of the spin coming from the organization. This sounds like Countrywide executives saying that they had no idea why subprime borrowers were given loans that they could never pay.

Everyone from the top down not only knew what was going on, but profited from it.

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Thank God I watch the games from my own private box suite with whatever meals I chose to eat. LOL. Plus instant replay. LOL.

I was shocked to hear this although I should not have been.

On the radio people had all sorts of ideas as to how to get even. Turning you tickets back in only lets the team hand them off to one of the other 150,000 people waiting. If I had tickets I woud probably go for either not showing up for a game, preferably a game like the Rams, Detroit, or showing up and at half time everyone leave so not only would it show the dissaproval of what's been going on but would piss off DS to see the stadium empty on national TV. or pick a game against a weak opponant and sell your tickets to the opposing team fans. How embarrassing/ mad could DS get seeing all the oppossing teams fans cheering for their team in his stadium. I mean if the team can sell out to the scalpers of opposing teams like they did in that one Steelers game then so can everyone else....right.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;583291]Does anyone think that this is an odd statement? Doesn't every business at least reserve the right to file a lawsuit to enforce legal contracts, especially when legal action is deemed necessary. If they deem legal action necessary, would not filing a lawsuit be a reasonable step towards starting that legal action.

Are we to think that only the Redskins would be so crass as to file a lawsuit against someone who is broaching their legal obligation?

And PFT says it is a non-issue that only 20-30 of these lawsuits are filed in a given year, but doesn't that mean that maybe 1 in 10,000 corporate entities face this threat.

Sorry this is a ridiculous story.[/quote]

Funny, one would think the Skins would have to show damages cause the individuals failed to live up to the contract yet they have 150,000 other people on a waiting list. I guess DS is not the business savy person everyone thinks he is. I mean if you default on just about any other contract similar..like a car loan or house loan the bank takes it back and gives it to someone else. They for the most part don't waist money paying their attorney's to try to get blood from a turnip.

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I guess you can call BS to the story but if you listened to your radio tonight on 106.7 it didn't sound like just a few disgruntled fans with different issues. All said the same thing....

They have been treated like shit. Food sucked. Threatened to be sued. Contracts extended with out the fans permission, this alone in a contract involving thousands of dollars should be illegal. The team should have to send letters out notifying fans they need to make the team aware if they plan to renew the contract not simply be able to renew or alter the contract with out a signiture.

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[quote=SBXVII;583375]Funny, one would think the Skins would have to show damages cause the individuals failed to live up to the contract yet they have 150,000 other people on a waiting list. I guess DS is not the business savy person everyone thinks he is.[B] I mean if you default on just about any other contract similar..like a car loan or house loan the bank takes it back and gives it to someone else[/B]. They for the most part don't waist money paying their attorney's to try to get blood from a turnip.[/quote]

Funny you bring that up SBXVII. According to some dude who works for the Washington Post, he says some of the tickets WERE resold and the original ticket holder was sued for the full amount anyway. He also said that you can be sued for the full 10 years no matter what year you're in when you default. I don't remember the guys name or how true this is but that's what he said on WPL today.

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[quote=53Fan;583379]Funny you bring that up SBXVII. According to some dude who works for the Washington Post, he says some of the tickets WERE resold and the original ticket holder was sued for the full amount anyway. He also said that you can be sued for the full 10 years no matter what year you're in when you default. I don't remember the guys name or how true this is but that's what he said on WPL today.[/quote]

I don't doubt you. A lot of people were talking about how contract law is different in DC.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

I've never had season tickets so I don't know but he said that's part of the agreement you sign when you get the tickets.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

It would be funny if someone got the contract for the tickets and renegotiated the contract.

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I think they should at least take whatever they resold the tickets for off the amount sued for. Of course they may claim cost for the time and effort to resale the ticket. Who knows? It's a mess.

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[quote=53Fan;583382]I've never had season tickets so I don't know but he said that's part of the agreement you sign when you get the tickets.[/quote]

I never have either and a lot of people were saying that very thing.

I guess as in any other business (cause he wants to run it like one) you take the good with the bad. If you are going to treat your fan base like shit sooner or later you won't have a fan base. I'm refering to the teams that have weird practices like the Panthers. Fans were happy to finally get an NFL team then the owner slammed them with all the funky rules about getting the seats. Now he can't fill the stadium. LOL.

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[quote=53Fan;583385]I think they should at least take whatever they resold the tickets for off the amount sued for. Of course they may claim cost for the time and effort to resale the ticket. Who knows? It's a mess.[/quote]

Just as effective and cheaper would have been to take the seats back, send a letter to the individuals credit files that they defaulted on a contract, sell the seats to the next person on the 10yr wait list and move on. Guaranteed the letter could have been generated by a secretary and tickets resold for less then paying their lawers to go after someone who can no longer afford the tickets.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote=SBXVII;583375]Funny, one would think the Skins would have to show damages cause the individuals failed to live up to the contract yet they have 150,000 other people on a waiting list. I guess DS is not the business savy person everyone thinks he is. I mean if you default on just about any other contract similar..like a car loan or house loan the bank takes it back and gives it to someone else. They for the most part don't waist money paying their attorney's to try to get blood from a turnip.[/quote]

Please try to understand, the lawsuit story was not speaking of the general admission individual tickets. It was about the luxury suites, and were upwards of 6000 per season. And its not about 1000's or even hundreds of lawsuits. It's about the people who, after every other resolution was tried (including financing arrangements and other things) the buyer was still in default. At that point, they have had to file 20-30 lawsuits, out of 90000 seats. Please lets not overplay a silly story.

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[quote=SBXVII;583380]I don't doubt you. A lot of people were talking about how contract law is different in DC.[/quote]

Well, I imagine the contract law is actually signed and incorporates Virginia law, not DC.

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;583401]Well, I imagine the contract law is actually signed and incorporates Virginia law, not DC.[/quote]

Unless there's something I missed I thought Maryland oversaw DC. but even having said that DC is actually guided by the Federal Gov. so I would guess the contract laws follow more to the Federal Laws regarding contract law.

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[quote=SBXVII;583426]Unless there's something I missed I thought Maryland oversaw DC. but even having said that DC is actually guided by the Federal Gov. so I would guess the contract laws follow more to the Federal Laws regarding contract law.[/quote]
I really don't know, but since the Skins business is out of Ashburn, I assume that they would have VA as the place where disputes are resolved, similar to Microsoft using Washington State courts. But I really don't know for sure either.

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;583398]Please try to understand, the lawsuit story was not speaking of the general admission individual tickets. It was about the luxury suites, and were upwards of 6000 per season. And its not about 1000's or even hundreds of lawsuits. It's about the people who, after every other resolution was tried (including financing arrangements and other things) the buyer was still in default. At that point, they have had to file 20-30 lawsuits, out of 90000 seats. Please lets not overplay a silly story.[/quote]

You sound like an employee. 20-30? Not according to the Washington Post.

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/02/AR2009090203850.html?hpid=topnews]washingtonpost.com[/url]

I am not sure that you can be considered objective with what you have posted on this subject.

Btw, this Donovan guy sounds like a real slimeball, just like the owner.

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[quote=Pocket$ $traight;583432]You sound like an employee. 20-30? Not according to the Washington Post.

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/02/AR2009090203850.html?hpid=topnews]washingtonpost.com[/url]

I am not sure that you can be considered objective with what you have posted on this subject.

Btw, this Donovan guy sounds like a real slimeball, just like the owner.[/quote]

No, I'm not an employee, I don't have tickets. Here is the quote from the post:
[quote]The Washington Redskins have filed [B]137 lawsuits[/B] against ticket holders of premium seats and skyboxes in the[B] past five years[/B], according to a review of court records by The Washington Post. [/quote]
So, 137 lawsuits, divided by 5 years, is 27 lawsuits on average a year. compared to 20-30,000 premium seats and skyboxes a year. If you want to do a 5 year comparison, 137 lawsuits, against 100,000 (at a minimum) sales.

Again, in my opinion, this is just a mudraker story.

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[url=http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/D-C-fans-shocked-that-Redskins-are-trying-to-se?urn=nfl,186891]D.C. fans shocked that Redskins are trying to sell tickets - Shutdown Corner - NFL - Yahoo! Sports[/url]

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;583438]No, I'm not an employee, I don't have tickets. Here is the quote from the post:

So, 137 lawsuits, divided by 5 years, is 27 lawsuits on average a year. compared to 20-30,000 premium seats and skyboxes a year. If you want to do a 5 year comparison, 137 lawsuits, against 100,000 (at a minimum) sales.

Again, in my opinion, this is just a mudraker story.[/quote]

Maybe the Post has an agenda against the team (I don't think this is a secret) but either way, the bottom line is that Snyder has consistently made a decision to punish the fans of the team when they cannot or do not fufill the ticket contracts.

I don't care that it averages out to 20 - 30 a year over 5 years, in fact that seems to provide even more evidence that they are extremely comfortable with this course of action.

Their attorney also said that for every suit, there are half a dozen or so (I would think more than that) people that accept an alternative arrangement. So there are hundreds if not thousands of fans that have come to some agreement on how to make the team whole.

On top of that, the team resells seats that people are being forced to pay off, to ticket brokers. So in essense, tickets are sold to fans, if they can't pay they are sued, same tickets are re-sold to brokers instead of people on the waiting list and many times these end up in the hands of opposing fans.

Win, win for Snyder no matter what happens. If a few grandmas go bankrupt in the process, who cares, the other team's fan is there to buy his $8.50 beers and sit in the "deadbeat's" seat.

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[quote=Pocket$ $traight;583454]...
If a few grandmas go bankrupt in the process, who cares, the other team's fan is there to buy his $8.50 beers and sit in the "deadbeat's" seat.[/quote]

Gotcha, I agree, no grandmother should go bankrupt due to the Redskins legal policies. I agree 100%.

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;583430]I really don't know, but since the Skins business is out of Ashburn, I assume that they would have VA as the place where disputes are resolved, similar to Microsoft using Washington State courts. But I really don't know for sure either.[/quote]

The Post article says that the cases were in PG County (Md) court.

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[quote=irish;583465]The Post article says that the cases were in PG County (Md) court.[/quote]

You are right.

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[quote=SBXVII;583426][B]Unless there's something I missed I thought Maryland oversaw DC. [/B]but even having said that DC is actually guided by the Federal Gov. so I would guess the contract laws follow more to the Federal Laws regarding contract law.[/quote]

Wait--I'm sorry, but I have to ask. Are you being serious, or is this a joke?

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;583430]I really don't know, [B]but since the Skins business is out of Ashburn[/B], I assume that they would have VA as the place where disputes are resolved, similar to Microsoft using Washington State courts. But I really don't know for sure either.[/quote]

True, but there have been lawsuits the Redskins have been part of that identifed Fed Ex Field, in P.G. County, as the team's "principle place of business," so on that basis PG County may be the locale of proper court jurisdiction. Of course, the story says that the grandmother defendant did not even answer the complaint, so jurisdiction wasn't really contested.

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;583438]No, I'm not an employee, I don't have tickets. Here is the quote from the post:

So, 137 lawsuits, divided by 5 years, is 27 lawsuits on average a year. compared to 20-30,000 premium seats and skyboxes a year. If you want to do a 5 year comparison, 137 lawsuits, against 100,000 (at a minimum) sales.

Again, in my opinion, this is just a mudraker story.[/quote]

137 lawsuits is a lot when you consider the fact that the article points out that there are almost no other teams in the league that sue their ticket holders. The Patriots said they sue their ticket holders in only rare instances.

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The problem with this whole thing is that a team that already seems like it will do anything for a $, no matter how sleazy, now seems to be even sleazier than ever.

Does anyone else find it ironic that the Skins want to be able to get out of a contract they have with ticket brokers but dont want to let fans out of their contracts. The whole thing is a mess.

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Good read

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2009/09/a_heartwarming_redskins_story.html]D.C. Sports Bog - A Heartwarming Redskins Story[/url]

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[quote=BringBackJoeT;583472]True, but there have been lawsuits the Redskins have been part of that identifed Fed Ex Field, in P.G. County, as the team's "principle place of business," so on that basis PG County may be the locale of proper court jurisdiction. Of course, the story says that the grandmother defendant did not even answer the complaint, so jurisdiction wasn't really contested.[/quote]

They have offices in Landover, as well as Ashburn.

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Did any body see the pic (and read the part) about the guy who claims the Redskins altered his contract. He has two copies of the contract. One that he filled out and filed away and another which the Redskins ticket office altered after he signed (they put an "x" in the box for six years).

He is probably not the only one. I have a friend who told me his dad got suckered into buying a multi-year contract and now I am starting to believe him (I always just thought my friend's dad was drunk when he bought the club level seats).

To be pragmatic, it sounds like the salesman in the ticket office who make a nice commission off these multi-year mega buck contracts and will do about anything to make that sale. And that leads to issues like these we are reading about.