Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=SolidSnake84;641974]I'm with the people who say that it is unfair to waste the minority's time with the interview, when it is obvious that the team already has someone that they want to hire.

I would not want to be the minority person whose time is wasted just for the sake of a team pacifying the rule...[/quote]

maybe the minority hits a homerun in the interview. it can happen, zorn went from OC to HC with some good interviews.

Not directed to Solidsnake, but the second you imply one race is generally racist you lose all credibility in these discussions.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=Zerohero;642171]maybe the minority hits a homerun in the interview. it can happen, [B]zorn went from OC to HC with some good interviews[/B].

Not directed to Solidsnake, but the second you imply one race is generally racist you lose all credibility in these discussions.[/quote]

???? he got the job cause nobody else wanted it

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=mlmdub130;642173]???? he got the job cause nobody else wanted it[/quote]

i bet some minoritys wanted it

Re: The Rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;642137]Affirmative action was definitely necessary at one point in time, when the good old boy network really was the way people went about hiring. However we have moved on since then and I think people really don't care about skin color anymore. The NFL is about winning, and whoever gives you the best chance gets the job. So yeah definitely agree.[/quote]

Agreed. If the redskins can sign Shannahan, why should they have to interview someone else?

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

I think the Rooney Rule is so stupid. Hire the best man for the job. Head coaches both black and white have proven they can coach at a high level and win Super Bowls. If a team has their sights set on a coach who happens to be white, why go through the motions of interviewing a minority candidate just for the sake of it? It's wasting the time of both parties.

Hire the best man for the job. Who gives a crap what his skins color is. There are several very solid black head coaches in the league and dozens more assistants.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=GMScud;642199]I think the Rooney Rule is so stupid. Hire the best man for the job.[/quote]

I wish I lived in the world you lived in. Where institutional racism is non existent. However, in the real world where I reside it's still a pervasive problem, despite many falsely claiming that it's no longer a hinderance. Here's some facts to back up my thought processes, I'm getting tired of reading un-verifiable conjecture.

[b]Devah Pager[/b]

Princeton University [b]August 9, 2008[/b]

[b]Is racial discrimination a thing of the past?[/b]

Debates about the relevance of discrimination in today's society have been difficult to resolve, in part because of the challenges in identifying, measuring, and documenting its presence or absence in all but extreme cases. Discrimination is rarely something that can be observed explicitly.

The results of these studies were startling. Among those with no criminal record,[b] white applicants were more than twice as likely to receive a callback relative to equally qualified black applicants. Even more troubling, whites with a felony conviction fared just as well, if not better, than a black applicant with a clean background.[/b]

Racial disparities have been documented in many contexts, but here, comparing the two job applicants side by side, we are confronted with a troubling reality:[b] Being black in America today is just about the same as having a felony conviction in terms of one’s chances of finding a job.[/b]

[url=http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felon-same-chances-for-hire/]Anderson Cooper 360: Blog Archive - Study: Black man and white felon – same chances for hire « - Blogs from CNN.com[/url]

[b]This is why we need the Rooney rule[/b].

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=GMScud;642199]I think the Rooney Rule is so stupid. Hire the best man for the job. Head coaches both black and white have proven they can coach at a high level and win Super Bowls. If a team has their sights set on a coach who happens to be white, [B]why go through the motions of interviewing a minority candidate just for the sake of it?[/B] It's wasting the time of both parties.

Hire the best man for the job. Who gives a crap what his skins color is. There are several very solid black head coaches in the league and dozens more assistants.[/quote]

So the minority candidate, who otherwise would traditionally be overlooked, would have the chance to at least interview. I don't understand why people are so bothered by this. Actually, I would further this Rule by adding that all teams have a bona fide search process, to get all young execs and coaches in the interview pool and at least the opportunity to go through interviews.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

I don't know what kind of world you guys live in to think that there's no favoritism being shown to people that ...
1) you know and are familiar with
and
2) others that are similiar to you that you can relate to, which means skin color and deeper than that - cultural background.

Let's not pretend that these 2 factors don't exist when someone is in charge of hiring someone. And for those who think that factor #1 is not a problem - who do you think you are familiar with- usually people that have the same background and culture as you. And before you think that you hang with and know alot of minorities - ask yourself truthfully the last time you saw a group of blacks, hispanics, or asians together in a group out in public. You probably thought - damn there are alot of ______ (fill in your favorite racial slur). Tell me I'm wrong.

The Rooney Rule helps combats this "subtle" and unspoken prejudice.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=Ruhskins;642223]So the minority candidate, who otherwise would traditionally be overlooked, would have the chance to at least interview. I don't understand why people are so bothered by this. Actually, I would further this Rule by adding that all teams have a bona fide search process, to get all young execs and coaches in the interview pool and at least the opportunity to go through interviews.[/quote]

I guess I am slow, but I will confess this statement struck a chord, it is very possible (maybe not with DS but I will use him as an example) that DS interviews, and likes Jerry Gray, now having interviewed him, at the next owners meeting if JJ asks DS what he thinks of JG r if he had any good interviews, then JGs name starts to circulate, now that type of conversation has always happened, and if the rooney rule broadens that pool of table talk candidates, than that does make a difference.

that said its still a rule and not armageddon, or arab-israeli peace.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

I could care less either way

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=GMScud;642199]I think the Rooney Rule is so stupid. Hire the best man for the job. Head coaches both black and white have proven they can coach at a high level and win Super Bowls. If a team has their sights set on a coach who happens to be white, why go through the motions of interviewing a minority candidate just for the sake of it? It's wasting the time of both parties.

Hire the best man for the job. Who gives a crap what his skins color is. There are several very solid black head coaches in the league and dozens more assistants.[/quote]Well, let's say that Dan Snyder offered to interview YOU for the job of General Manager of the Washington Redskins, but you knew full well that the team was pretty locked in on Bruce Allen. But again, for whatever reason, you were offered a real opportunity to go interview for your dream position.

Would you decline the offer? You're perfectly within your rights to do so, but I'd think you'd probably go do it. And that's even if you knew that you weren't going to get the position because you don't fit Dan Snyder's vision of a general manager.

Your argument re: Rooney Rule takes the position that it's stupid he would even waste your time. I can't honestly say that, rather than decline to interview, I'd just hope I didn't have to answer my phone.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=Ruhskins;642223]So the minority candidate, who otherwise would traditionally be overlooked, would have the chance to at least interview. I don't understand why people are so bothered by this. Actually, I would further this Rule by adding that all teams have a bona fide search process, to get all young execs and coaches in the interview pool and at least the opportunity to go through interviews.[/quote]

Well, both white and minority candidates gets passed on all the time. These coaching positions are the tops in all of football in this country. To say it's exclusive would be an understatement. The kind of interviews that go on before hiring a HC are very extensive and time consuming. I'm all for a fair hiring process, but forcing teams to interview minority candidates just because isn't productive in my opinion.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=Kalisto2010;642205]I wish I lived in the world you lived in. Where institutional racism is non existent. However, in the real world where I reside it's still a pervasive problem, despite many falsely claiming that it's no longer a hinderance. Here's some facts to back up my thought processes, I'm getting tired of reading un-verifiable conjecture.

[B]Devah Pager[/B]

Princeton University [B]August 9, 2008[/B]

[B]Is racial discrimination a thing of the past?[/B]

Debates about the relevance of discrimination in today's society have been difficult to resolve, in part because of the challenges in identifying, measuring, and documenting its presence or absence in all but extreme cases. Discrimination is rarely something that can be observed explicitly.

The results of these studies were startling. Among those with no criminal record,[B] white applicants were more than twice as likely to receive a callback relative to equally qualified black applicants. Even more troubling, whites with a felony conviction fared just as well, if not better, than a black applicant with a clean background.[/B]

Racial disparities have been documented in many contexts, but here, comparing the two job applicants side by side, we are confronted with a troubling reality:[B] Being black in America today is just about the same as having a felony conviction in terms of one’s chances of finding a job.[/B]

[URL="http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felon-same-chances-for-hire/"]Anderson Cooper 360: Blog Archive - Study: Black man and white felon – same chances for hire « - Blogs from CNN.com[/URL]

[B]This is why we need the Rooney rule[/B].[/quote]

I am speaking only of the Rooney rule as it relates to head coaching positions in the NFL. Being a head coach in the NFL is an exclusive fraternity to say the least. Of the 32 head coaching positions, 7 are currently occupied by minorities. Could it be more? Sure. Does it scream discrimination? Not at all.

You speak of institutional racism. You're swinging at much bigger fences than I'm talking about. I'm not going beyond the NFL with my opinion. The question in the thread title is only about the Rooney rule. The links/references you made were regarding studies discussing all kinds of employment on a variety of levels in this country. And in that case, I think it's a awful that a black person with no criminal history statistically stands the same chance as a white person with a felony. That's terrible.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

Has the Rooney rule explicitly allowed a minority to obtain a job as a HC in the NFL? Very likely not. It'd be hard to identify a situation where it's even somewhat conceivable. What the Rooney Rule has done though is draw a line.

Through various management classes as so forth I have asked of my professors/lecturers/trainers, often and in a myriad of ways, how one goes about changing a culture within a business since systemic culture is so very often the cause of inefficiency and failure. Their answers usually boil down to "you have to crack it". Not blow it away but create a situation that forcefully propels an organization to reevaluate and do things differently. Something that actually starts the process of change in a perceptible way. That is what the Rooney Rule has started. It has drawn a line and creates a tiny crack. Teams are now forced to actually consider diversity in their coaching searches. That in it self is a very major step forward in remaking the culture. Progressing the issue from one of largely ignorable rhetoric and blather to something teams actually pay attention to. That is really very important. It may seem small but it is not at all.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=FRPLG;642247]Has the Rooney rule explicitly allowed a minority to obtain a job as a HC in the NFL? Very likely not. It'd be hard to identify a situation where it's even somewhat conceivable. What the Rooney Rule has done though is draw a line.

Through various management classes as so forth I have asked of my professors/lecturers/trainers, often and in a myriad of ways, how one goes about changing a culture within a business since systemic culture is so very often the cause of inefficiency and failure. Their answers usually boil down to "you have to crack it". Not blow it away but create a situation that forcefully propels an organization to reevaluate and do things differently. Something that actually starts the process of change in a perceptible way. That is what the Rooney Rule has started. It has drawn a line and creates a tiny crack. Teams are now forced to actually consider diversity in their coaching searches. That in it self is a very major step forward in remaking the culture. Progressing the issue from one of largely ignorable rhetoric and blather to something teams actually pay attention to. That is really very important. It may seem small but it is not at all.[/quote]

Good post. Good perspective. Never thought of it in that light specifically.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=warriorzpath;642228]I don't know what kind of world you guys live in to think that there's no favoritism being shown to people that ...
1) you know and are familiar with
and
2) others that are similiar to you that you can relate to, which means skin color and deeper than that - cultural background.

Let's not pretend that these 2 factors don't exist when someone is in charge of hiring someone. And for those who think that factor #1 is not a problem - who do you think you are familiar with- usually people that have the same background and culture as you. And before you think that you hang with and know alot of minorities - ask yourself truthfully the last time you saw a group of blacks, hispanics, or asians together in a group out in public. You probably thought - damn there are alot of ______ (fill in your favorite racial slur). Tell me I'm wrong.

The Rooney Rule helps combats this "subtle" and unspoken prejudice.[/quote]

I have lived in Manassas, Richmond, Detroit, DC, etc.. I've seen plenty of groups of minorities and no I don't think "damn there are a lot of ______s"

Maybe you think that way but don't accuse people of racism whom you haven't even met.. talk about judging people without merit.

I have what I consider 4 best friends.. one is half arabic and half hispanic, one is about the same color as a 90% cacao chocolate bar, and two are white.

You are as close-minded as these racists that you think that everybody is and seem to be the one insulting other races here, not the other way around, grow up. Sure racism exists, but a lot of discrimination of all types do.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=GMScud;642239]I am speaking only of the Rooney rule as it relates to head coaching positions in the NFL. Being a head coach in the NFL is an exclusive fraternity to say the least. Of the 32 head coaching positions, 7 are currently occupied by minorities. Could it be more? Sure. Does it scream discrimination? Not at all.

You speak of institutional racism. You're swinging at much bigger fences than I'm talking about. I'm not going beyond the NFL with my opinion. The question in the thread title is only about the Rooney rule. The links/references you made were regarding studies discussing all kinds of employment on a variety of levels in this country. And in that case, I think it's a awful that a black person with no criminal history statistically stands the same chance as a white person with a felony. That's terrible.[/quote]

Yep; I'd like to know what industries that they polled as well. Having done hiring and with discussions with HR in everything from retail to state govt I know that even misdemeanors hurt your chances, especially if it's drug/alcohol or theft related.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=FRPLG;642247]Has the Rooney rule explicitly allowed a minority to obtain a job as a HC in the NFL? Very likely not. It'd be hard to identify a situation where it's even somewhat conceivable. What the Rooney Rule has done though is draw a line.

Through various management classes as so forth I have asked of my professors/lecturers/trainers, often and in a myriad of ways, how one goes about changing a culture within a business since systemic culture is so very often the cause of inefficiency and failure. Their answers usually boil down to "you have to crack it". Not blow it away but create a situation that forcefully propels an organization to reevaluate and do things differently. Something that actually starts the process of change in a perceptible way. That is what the Rooney Rule has started. It has drawn a line and creates a tiny crack. Teams are now forced to actually consider diversity in their coaching searches. That in it self is a very major step forward in remaking the culture. Progressing the issue from one of largely ignorable rhetoric and blather to something teams actually pay attention to. That is really very important. It may seem small but it is not at all.[/quote]
Also agree with this, I'm definitely not saying it should have never existed.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

Wrong thread edit.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=tryfuhl;642261]I have lived in Manassas, Richmond, Detroit, DC, etc.. I've seen plenty of groups of minorities and no I don't think "damn there are a lot of ______s"

Maybe you think that way but don't accuse people of racism whom you haven't even met.. talk about judging people without merit.

I have what I consider 4 best friends.. one is half arabic and half hispanic, one is about the same color as a 90% cacao chocolate bar, and two are white.

You are as close-minded as these racists that you think that everybody is and seem to be the one insulting other races here, not the other way around, grow up. Sure racism exists, but a lot of discrimination of all types do.[/quote]

So since you've seen and noticed that there were groups of minorities, what did you think? Nothing out of the ordinary... you just thought... oh that's normal and that you were among people like you.

You know what I said about the racist slur when referring to a group of minorities might have been a bit extreme for some, but I bet you did notice that it was different than seeing a group of white people together, where it is considered just normal.

And you and your best friends may have the perfect friendship where you properly act and behave, but I have never met 2 best friends that don't offend each other either seriously or joking around - and they are picked on with what they are different about - like their race.

If you tell me your best friends have never joked each other about their race, then I apologize, but you are in the minority (pardon the pun). And one last thing - I am not closed minded - I am just telling you what I have experienced and observed. You may live in lala land where everybody is a different color and part of the same rainbow, but I can't deny what I have seen and heard. Just because you ignore it and don't talk about it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist and it will go away by itself. But also since you are white, you have the luxury of thinking that this is not an issue. Try talking to your non-white friends about this and I think you may discover what you are telling me may be different from what they tell you. But like I said again, if I'm wrong I apologize...

... and another thing, try talking to them about this and look at their body language - if they look down or away or hesitate about talking about it - it may be that they don't feel comfortable in talking about it with you.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

i don't like the rooney rule, it may be a well intended rule, but it's wrong to force employers to interview people that they have no intention of hireing, regardless of sex or race.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=wolfeskins;642290]i don't like the rooney rule, it may be a well intended rule, but it's wrong to force employers to interview people that they have no intention of hireing, regardless of sex or race.[/quote]

I respect (but strongly disagree with) this viewpoint but I'd counter with the Steelers had no 'intention' of hiring Mike Tomlin when they interviewed him. The NFL, like all major sports, is very much a good old boys club. When you don't have generations of being in the league it's hard to crack that rotation. Look at how long it took Dungy to get a job after being regarded as 'ready' for years. Same thing with Sherm Lewis, he never got his chance-partially because of the playoff/interview rules at the time-but the rule is primarily about exposing owners to coaches they may not have otherwise encountered.

Please don't buy into (or sell) the naive point of view that people see talent equally and 'other factors' have no bearing on their decisions.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=Paintrain;642296]I respect (but strongly disagree with) this viewpoint but I'd counter with the Steelers had no 'intention' of hiring Mike Tomlin when they interviewed him. [B][U]The NFL, like all major sports, is very much a good old boys club.[/U][/B] When you don't have generations of being in the league it's hard to crack that rotation. Look at how long it took Dungy to get a job after being regarded as 'ready' for years. Same thing with Sherm Lewis, he never got his chance-partially because of the playoff/interview rules at the time-but the rule is primarily about exposing owners to coaches they may not have otherwise encountered.

Please don't buy into (or sell) the naive point of view that people see talent equally and 'other factors' have no bearing on their decisions.[/quote]

i agree with what your saying. i just don't like the idea of anyone telling another who to hire, who to interview, how to run your buisness etc..

as for the line i highlighted, i would say, it's not so much that way anymore. most teams want to be winners, they'll hire the best guy or girl for the job, but they don't need rules telling them who they need to interview. just my personal opinion.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=wolfeskins;642298]i agree with what your saying. i just don't like the idea of anyone telling another who to hire, who to interview, how to run your buisness etc..[/quote]

That's the same attitude that was perpetuated during the civil rights movement when the Government forced the schools to integrate. No one likes being told what to do, but fortunately we live in a country governed by laws where discrimination isn't tolerated. I don't understand why people exhibit resentment when we attempt to even the playing field. You should channel your disdain towards the fact that very few Black coaches were interviewed prior to the Rooney rule, not the NFL's attempt to rectify it.


I don't like Police officers telling me how fast I can drive, what substances I can smoke, or how loud I can play my music within the confines of my own vehicle. However, I understand that's it's necessary to have police officers to maintain social order. And you should understand that things like the Rooney rule are necessary to ensure equal opportunity.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

The bottom line is the owners have never really been around minorities and probably don't socialize with them. They didn't grow up with them. They're more comfortable with white people. In the end they're going to hire who they want to hire. If most of the owners were black you'd see a lot more black coaches. That's just how it is. I think it's a good rule cause Tomlin would've never got a job. It's the same thing in college and especially in the SEC. Why didn't Sly Croom get the Alabama job over Shula? He was better qualified but the Alabama alumni probably wouldn't be comfortable with a black man. Progress has been made but there is still a long way to go.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

I believe the owners voted the Rooney rule in so it's not the same as an outside government establishing it, it is just a self policing policy.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

Any respect I had for Greg Blache just went out the window.

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/12/19/source-blache-already-has-interviewed-for-redskins-job/]Source: Blache already has interviewed for Redskins job | ProFootballTalk.com[/url]

[quote=][B]Source: Blache already has interviewed for Redskins job[/B]
Posted by Mike Florio on December 19, 2009 10:21 AM ET

Unless they conducted a search even faster than they recruited Albert Haynesworth, the Redskins interviewed multiple candidates for General Manager at a time when they already had someone doing the job.

So it should come as no surprise that they're already interviewing candidates for the position of head coach, despite the fact that they already have one.

Per a league source, the Redskins have interviewed defensive coordinator Greg Blache for the position currently held by his boss, Jim Zorn.

It's unknown when the interview specifically occurred.

By interviewing Blache, the Redskins have complied in advance with the Rooney Rule, which requires at least one minority candidate to be interviewed for every head-coaching vacancy.

We recently speculated, based on the manner in which the Vinny Cerrato-Bruce Allen flip-flop was handled by the team, that the Redskins already have complied with the Rooney Rule as it relates to the head-coaching position.

So, basically, the Redskins are free -- at any time -- to announce that Zorn is out, and to announce that Mike Shanahan (or anyone else, for that matter) is in.

As we pointed out last night, Shanahan definitely is in play for the job. Though it's not a done deal, he has been talking to the powers-that-be for weeks, if not months.

Cue the denials from Blache and/or the Redskins and/or Shanahan and/or Shanahan's minions in the media.

Maybe, if I'm really lucky, Mike Wise will call me a "cretin" again, too.[/quote]

Its well-known that Blache has no desire to be a head coach. The only reason he'd "interview" for the position is so the Redskins could satisfy the letter of the Rooney Rule while taking a dump on the "spirit" of the rule. I wonder what they bribed him with to sell out his integrity.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

I'm not sure what to think of this Blache news, as I think it's true but not entirely accurate. Blache and the Redskins definitely talked earlier this year about the possibility of Blache taking over as interim coach midseason. One of them, can't remember if it was Blache or the Redskins (think it may have been Blache) decided that Blache taking over wasn't the best idea. I don't know if that counts toward the Rooney Rule though

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=SmootSmack;642344]I'm not sure what to think of this Blache news, as I think it's true but not entirely accurate. Blache and the Redskins definitely talked earlier this year about the possibility of Blache taking over as interim coach midseason. One of them, can't remember if it was Blache or the Redskins (think it may have been Blache) decided that Blache taking over wasn't the best idea. I don't know if that counts toward the Rooney Rule though[/quote]

I suppose its possible the report could be referring to blache interviewing for the interim coach position; however, i didnt think that coaches usually "interview" for interim positions. in addition, don't minority candidates have to sign some form indicating they felt the interview was "legitimate" in order for the rooney rule to be satisfied? Don't get me wrong - i want Shanahan as our next coach, and I undertand that if Snyder wants Shanahan, he's got to move fast in order to secure him, but this whole thing just smells fishy to me.

I wonerer if Snyder promised to get Shanahan to retain the majority of the defensive coaching staff if Blache agreed to do a sham interview. Blache seems to be eyeing retirement, but maybe he did this to help Jerry Gray and the rest of his coaching staff. Either that or Snyder just bought him another fancy gun.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=SmootSmack;642344]I'm not sure what to think of this Blache news, as I think it's true but not entirely accurate. Blache and the Redskins definitely talked earlier this year about the possibility of Blache taking over as interim coach midseason. One of them, can't remember if it was Blache or the Redskins (think it may have been Blache) decided that Blache taking over wasn't the best idea. I don't know if that counts toward the Rooney Rule though[/quote]

There's that issue of media relations as well. With his decision to stop talking to the media would not be a fit for HC.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=Longtimefan;642363]There's that issue of media relations as well. With his decision to stop talking to the media would not be a fit for HC.[/quote]

It's worked for Billacheat in N.E.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=Longtimefan;642363]There's that issue of media relations as well. With his decision to stop talking to the media would not be a fit for HC.[/quote]

True. That was after the "interview" though, from what I recall

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;642359]I suppose its possible the report could be referring to blache interviewing for the interim coach position; however, i didnt think that coaches usually "interview" for interim positions. in addition, don't minority candidates have to sign some form indicating they felt the interview was "legitimate" in order for the rooney rule to be satisfied? Don't get me wrong - i want Shanahan as our next coach, and I undertand that if Snyder wants Shanahan, he's got to move fast in order to secure him, but this whole thing just smells fishy to me.

I wonerer if Snyder promised to get Shanahan to retain the majority of the defensive coaching staff if Blache agreed to do a sham interview. Blache seems to be eyeing retirement, but maybe he did this to help Jerry Gray and the rest of his coaching staff. Either that or Snyder just bought him another fancy gun.[/quote]

Whether or not Blache's interview seems real or not, I'm satisfied with it. You can't force the owner to be serious about the interviews, you just hope they would. I think the Rooney Rule is there to give a chance for an opportunity and whether Blache and Snyder took it seriously or not is up to them.

If they found a way around the rule, then it is what it is - but I don't think they would go through this much trouble when they can actually just hold a legitimate interview with someone like Jerry Gray and meet the minority interview quota.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=Kalisto2010;642309]That's the same attitude that was perpetuated during the civil rights movement when the Government forced the schools to integrate. No one likes being told what to do, but fortunately we live in a country governed by laws where discrimination isn't tolerated. I don't understand why people exhibit resentment when we attempt to even the playing field. You should channel your disdain towards the fact that very few Black coaches were interviewed prior to the Rooney rule, not the NFL's attempt to rectify it.


I don't like Police officers telling me how fast I can drive, what substances I can smoke, or how loud I can play my music within the confines of my own vehicle. However, I understand that's it's necessary to have police officers to maintain social order. And you should understand that things like the Rooney rule are necessary to ensure equal opportunity.[/quote]

well public schools should never be aloud to reject someone from going there based on their race or sex, but a private school should have every right to do so as long as they are not accepting any money from the state. i have no problem with an all white,black,male or female private school or buisness. if i'm the owner of a buisness and all i want working for me is russian females, then that should be my right.


all that other nonsense your talking about with the police telling you how fast to drive and whatnot really doesn't apply to this arguement.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=Kalisto2010;642205]I wish I lived in the world you lived in. Where institutional racism is non existent. However, in the real world where I reside it's still a pervasive problem, despite many falsely claiming that it's no longer a hinderance. Here's some facts to back up my thought processes, I'm getting tired of reading un-verifiable conjecture.

[B]Devah Pager[/B]

Princeton University [B]August 9, 2008[/B]

[B]Is racial discrimination a thing of the past?[/B]

Debates about the relevance of discrimination in today's society have been difficult to resolve, in part because of the challenges in identifying, measuring, and documenting its presence or absence in all but extreme cases. Discrimination is rarely something that can be observed explicitly.

The results of these studies were startling. Among those with no criminal record,[B] white applicants were more than twice as likely to receive a callback relative to equally qualified black applicants. Even more troubling, whites with a felony conviction fared just as well, if not better, than a black applicant with a clean background.[/B]

Racial disparities have been documented in many contexts, but here, comparing the two job applicants side by side, we are confronted with a troubling reality:[B] Being black in America today is just about the same as having a felony conviction in terms of one’s chances of finding a job.[/B]

[URL="http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felon-same-chances-for-hire/"]Anderson Cooper 360: Blog Archive - Study: Black man and white felon – same chances for hire « - Blogs from CNN.com[/URL]

[B]This is why we need the Rooney rule[/B].[/quote]

I gotta ask then, how do you feel about affirmative action in the schools/workplace? You think it's wrong (and I agree) that a white man with poor qualifications (i.e. felony conviction) is looked at on the same level as black man who is better qualified for a job. Ok.

So if affirmative action results in college admission to a black kid at the expense of a white kid who is slightly more qualified, is that wrong? Kind of a double standard, no?

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=Kalisto2010;642205]I wish I lived in the world you lived in. Where institutional racism is non existent. However, in the real world where I reside it's still a pervasive problem, despite many falsely claiming that it's no longer a hinderance. Here's some facts to back up my thought processes, I'm getting tired of reading un-verifiable conjecture.

[B]Devah Pager[/B]

Princeton University [B]August 9, 2008[/B]

[B]Is racial discrimination a thing of the past?[/B]

Debates about the relevance of discrimination in today's society have been difficult to resolve, in part because of the challenges in identifying, measuring, and documenting its presence or absence in all but extreme cases. Discrimination is rarely something that can be observed explicitly.

The results of these studies were startling. Among those with no criminal record,[B] white applicants were more than twice as likely to receive a callback relative to equally qualified black applicants. Even more troubling, whites with a felony conviction fared just as well, if not better, than a black applicant with a clean background.[/B]

Racial disparities have been documented in many contexts, but here, comparing the two job applicants side by side, we are confronted with a troubling reality:[B] Being black in America today is just about the same as having a felony conviction in terms of one’s chances of finding a job.[/B]

[URL="http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felon-same-chances-for-hire/"]Anderson Cooper 360: Blog Archive - Study: Black man and white felon – same chances for hire « - Blogs from CNN.com[/URL]

[B]This is why we need the Rooney rule[/B].[/quote]
So I'm guessing they all got interviewed by white people? Wonder what would have happened if they went to black owned businesses and did the same thing? I'm sure those results would then be flipped.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=FRPLG;642247]Has the Rooney rule explicitly allowed a minority to obtain a job as a HC in the NFL? Very likely not. It'd be hard to identify a situation where it's even somewhat conceivable. What the Rooney Rule has done though is draw a line.

Through various management classes as so forth I have asked of my professors/lecturers/trainers, often and in a myriad of ways, how one goes about changing a culture within a business since systemic culture is so very often the cause of inefficiency and failure. Their answers usually boil down to "you have to crack it". Not blow it away but create a situation that forcefully propels an organization to reevaluate and do things differently. Something that actually starts the process of change in a perceptible way. That is what the Rooney Rule has started. It has drawn a line and creates a tiny crack. Teams are now forced to actually consider diversity in their coaching searches. That in it self is a very major step forward in remaking the culture. Progressing the issue from one of largely ignorable rhetoric and blather to something teams actually pay attention to. That is really very important. It may seem small but it is not at all.[/quote]
Professors just people who fail at doing what they teach and say they know so much about.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=GMScud;642421]I gotta ask then, how do you feel about affirmative action in the schools/workplace? You think it's wrong (and I agree) that a white man with poor qualifications (i.e. felony conviction) is looked at on the same level as black man who is better qualified for a job. Ok.

So if affirmative action results in college admission to a black kid at the expense of a white kid who is slightly more qualified, is that wrong? Kind of a double standard, no?[/quote]But how do you measure a more qualified student? In a vacuum, test scores and GPA would be perfectly adequate to determine the best candidate for acceptance into a school, but the problem is that applicants don't come from the same vacuum, they come from different socio-economic backgrounds and levels of education (suburban vs. inner city), and then you have to determine who the most qualified candidate is when it may not be so obvious. Most standards would simply determine the most qualified candidate to be the one most similar to the selectors.

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=GTripp0012;642441][B]But how do you measure a more qualified student?[/B] In a vacuum, test scores and GPA would be perfectly adequate to determine the best candidate for acceptance into a school, but the problem is that applicants don't come from the same vacuum, they come from different socio-economic backgrounds and levels of education (suburban vs. inner city), and then you have to determine who the most qualified candidate is when it may not be so obvious. Most standards would simply determine the most qualified candidate to be the one most similar to the selectors.[/quote]

Well that's for the admissions committee of each school to determine. I'm sure they all have specific criteria they weigh in different ways, and they are obviously smart enough to consider things like suburbs vs inner-city, income levels, etc etc.

In the end what I'm talking about is, after the admissions committees finish evaluating applicants (including the factors you mentioned), is it not a double standard (compared to Kalisto's comments) to give admission to a black candidate they found to be less qualified than a white candidate simply because he's a minority?

Re: The rooney rule is it fair< did the redskins follow the rules
 

[quote=GMScud;642442]Well that's for the admissions committee of each school to determine. I'm sure they all have specific criteria they weigh in different ways, and they are obviously smart enough to consider things like suburbs vs inner-city, income levels, etc etc.

In the end what I'm talking about is, after the admissions committees finish evaluating applicants (including the factors you mentioned), is it not a double standard (compared to Kalisto's comments) to give admission to a black candidate they found to be less qualified than a white candidate simply because he's a minority?[/quote]Well, then I think it's a strawman. I mean, if the assertion is that they've concluded that the white student is more qualified, then no amount of affirmative action is going to change who gets accepted. It sounds like it's already been decided.

Even one step further, though, the Rooney Rule doesn't even go this far. It stops at the interview process. So if I have a problem with the Rooney Rule, it's that it doesn't actually accomplish what it's intended to. Too easy to get around it.

But, I mean, there's only so much the NFL can do if Snyder is going to hire Shanahan. They can't make it illegal for him to do that. At the end of the day, there's no actual meaningful interview process going on here, so the application of the Rooney Rule is not helpful.