Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=SmootSmack;654868]Say what?[/quote]

Maybe i should have said more trade value. Not saying great but more than a bust qb would get. Or i could have never said that haha.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=celts32;654882]Suppose Mike Shanahan believes that JC is pretty good but Bradford or Clausen is a franchise QB. Do you want him to disregard what he believes and pick a LT anyway?[/quote]

I trust Shannahan and he hope whatever he does works, just when a qb is picked high the pressure is to put him in quickly and we see how that works. While i dont want a qb picked first, i can live with it as long as we address the line with the rest of the draft.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=Zerohero;654860]that is true but lets look at two scenarios

Draft a qb which is proven high risk, give him tons of money and know that he will prob not even play first year. If he is a bust it is a complete loss, almost no trade value.

Draft an OL that is lower risk, give him good money but less than a QB would have got. If he is a bust, move him to RT. If he a bust keep moving down the line. Complete bust he still has trade value.[/quote]

You are right that a first round QB is a greater risk than a first round tackle. But sometimes the risk pays off. What if the Colts had never risked taking Manning? Or if the Chargers had never risked taking Rivers? Etc. etc. The first round qb is high risk but also very high reward.

Again, I'm not arguing for a qb. And I sure don't want us to squander a pick on a Ryan Leaf. But if we could find the next Rivers, wouldn't that be cool?

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=Lotus;654916]You are right that a first round QB is a greater risk than a first round tackle. But sometimes the risk pays off. What if the Colts had never risked taking Manning? Or if the Chargers had never risked taking Rivers? Etc. etc. The first round qb is high risk but also very high reward.

Again, I'm not arguing for a qb. And I sure don't want us to squander a pick on a Ryan Leaf. But if we could find the next Rivers, wouldn't that be cool?[/quote]

Well i am just giving my opinion, i am not a gambling type. So most of my posts on different matters will reflect that. Of course some teams have taken the risk and won, but FAR more have suffered much from high QB picks. I dont think LT busts hurt a team as much. Thats what i was trying to point out earlier but i didn't make it clear.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=Zerohero;654919]Well i am just giving my opinion, i am not a gambling type. So most of my posts on different matters will reflect that. Of course some teams have taken the risk and won, but FAR more have suffered much from high QB picks. [B]I dont think LT busts hurt a team as much.[/B] Thats what i was trying to point out earlier but i didn't make it clear.[/quote]

It is hard to argue with that.

BTW I have not been arguing with you, just trying to think through the possible draft-the-QB scenarios. I'd be psyched if we took a franchise LT at #4.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=SmootSmack;654797]Why not draft a QB? It doesn't make much sense to just say let's just wait a year see what happens with Campbell and then get a QB in 2011. If we're in position to get one now, why not? He'll have a year in our system going into 2011.

I know we need linemen, but I think too many of us are thinking well let's just draft anyone that plays the position so we can pile up players in that position and hope a few stick. That doesn't make much sense to me. Plus, all the linemen in the world won't matter if there's no QB.[/quote]

Don't forget, it's not just the passer that needs protection -- the running game has been lacking too.

Our offensive line is in serious need of attention. If Okung or Williams or any other O-tackle slated in the top five, even top ten is there, I just don't see how you can pass him up for a QB.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=Zerohero;654919]Well i am just giving my opinion, i am not a gambling type. So most of my posts on different matters will reflect that. Of course some teams have taken the risk and won, but FAR more have suffered much from high QB picks. [B]I dont think LT busts hurt a team as much.[/B] Thats what i was trying to point out earlier but i didn't make it clear.[/quote]

Good point. Robert Gallery comes to mind. Bust as a left tackle but apparently has turned out to be a decent guard.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=Beemnseven;654924]Don't forget, it's not just the passer that needs protection -- the running game has been lacking too.

Our offensive line is in serious need of attention. If Okung or Williams or any other O-tackle slated in the top five, even top ten is there, I just don't see how you can pass him up for a QB.[/quote]

I could not agree more. Not only do we need protection for the QB, we also need something to run behind. When was the last time we could chew up the clock by running the ball? This line doesn't need a check-up, it needs major surgery.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

Me being someone who doesn't like Jason Campbell, I believe that Shanahan actually should keep him and maybe draft a guy like Dan LeFevour in the 3rd round. I was a strong Bradford supporter, and kind of still am, but I learned that OU's offense is considered a spread offense that is very QB friendly. Mix that with the fact that he separated his shoulder on a hit which Campbell and other NFL QB's take daily, and I say this.
Trade Back,
Get Rolando McClain.(Cause it sounds like we may need a 3-4 MLB) And maybe a second rounder.
Get Charles Brown out of USC with the second rounder.
With the other second rounder get either Mike Iupati the guard from Idaho, or Terrance Cody from Alabama, OR Vladamir Duccesse the athletic Guard/tackle from UMass.

If you haven't seen McClain he's one of those prospects that come around very rarely that no matter you teams need, or if you have too many needs, you don't pass him up. Someone here said he could be the next Ray Lewis...they're not bluffing.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miJwMCgaxKo]YouTube - Universal Draft Presents LB Rolando McClain of Alabama - Part 1 of 2[/url]

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

I know this gets repeated often, but when everybody says "trade down" remember ... you have to have a partner willing to trade up. That doesn't always happen.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=Beemnseven;654924]Don't forget, it's not just the passer that needs protection -- the running game has been lacking too.

Our offensive line is in serious need of attention. If Okung or Williams or any other O-tackle slated in the top five, even top ten is there, I just don't see how you can pass him up for a QB.[/quote]

Well we also need running backs who can block, but that's another story. And I don't think Trent Williams will be a top 10 pick. He's more of a RT so I think his stock will drop to alter in the 1st along with Bulaga. Davis is probably 10, but he's a bit of a head case. Maybe not worth it.

But anyway, I'm not saying don't address the line. I'm just saying that I think Okung is the only OT worth taking at #4 (though I actually think Charles Brown might be the better LT for us in the long term). And if he's not there we shouldn't just reach for an OT to get an OT. Because it's not like all we need is one anyway.

Good offensive lines don't have to be all top 10 picks. Look at the Ravens, a couple of mid to late first round picks and a few mid to late round picks. The Jets have several first round picks but a couple of them are so late in the first they're all almost second rounders.

Ravens:

LT: Gaither-5th round supplemental
LG: Grubbs-1st round (29th overall)
C: Birk-6th round (free agent via Vikings)
RG: Yanda-3rd round
RT: Oher-1st round (23rd overall)

Jets:

LT: Ferguson-1st round (4th overall)
LG: Faneca-1st round (26th overall)
C: Mangold-1st round (29th overall)
RG: Moore-undrafted
RT: Woody-1st round (17th overall)

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=SmootSmack;654963]Well we also need running backs who can block, but that's another story. And I don't think Trent Williams will be a top 10 pick. He's more of a RT so I think his stock will drop to alter in the 1st along with Bulaga. Davis is probably 10, but he's a bit of a head case. Maybe not worth it.

[B]But anyway, I'm not saying don't address the line. I'm just saying that I think Okung is the only OT worth taking at #4 (though I actually think Charles Brown might be the better LT for us in the long term). And if he's not there we shouldn't just reach for an OT to get an OT. Because it's not like all we need is one anyway.
[/B]
Good offensive lines don't have to be all top 10 picks. Look at the Ravens, a couple of mid to late first round picks and a few mid to late round picks. The Jets have several first round picks but a couple of them are so late in the first they're all almost second rounders.

Ravens:

LT: Gaither-5th round supplemental
LG: Grubbs-1st round (29th overall)
C: Birk-6th round (free agent via Vikings)
RG: Yanda-3rd round
RT: Oher-1st round (23rd overall)

Jets:

LT: Ferguson-1st round (4th overall)
LG: Faneca-1st round (26th overall)
C: Mangold-1st round (29th overall)
RG: Moore-undrafted
RT: Woody-1st round (17th overall)[/quote]

I feel like i've seen you type this about 238 times already

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

I actually think we will be able to find a trade back partner with Eric Berry or Gerald McCoy or maybe McClain there at no 4.
I dont like the QBs this year, but really like Locker next year, even if we had to trade up to get him. I've said it before, but Id love to aquire the Pat's 2011 1st rounder that they got from the raiders. That could be the #1 overall pick next year.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=Ruhskins;654897]Well Okung could be a franchise tackle too. I honestly feel that it will all depend on who's available at #4.

If Okung is there, let's take him.

If Clausen or Bradford are there...we could take them but either one of them being there could also lead to a trade (i.e. Seattle).[/quote]

We've had a franchise tackle for the last 10 years, it's only done us so much good. If we want to get to a level where we're going to compete on an annual basis then we need a franchise QB. As has been said before we don't need to use our first pick on an offensive lineman. We can use the rest of the draft to add guys along the O-Line which will be very different from not taking any lineman and saying that they just weren't the best players available.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=SmootSmack;654963]But anyway, I'm not saying don't address the line. I'm just saying that I think Okung is the only OT worth taking at #4 (though I actually think Charles Brown might be the better LT for us in the long term). And if he's not there we shouldn't just reach for an OT to get an OT. Because it's not like all we need is one anyway.[/quote]Inevitably, though, the same sort of argument can be applied to this quarterback class. The Rams pick first. They can take Suh, Clausen, or Bradford. Without making the misguided assumption that the Rams front office knows more than the collective, they might opt to go with the dominant defensive prospect at that position over the available quarterbacks.

If there's a situation where both Clausen and Bradford are available at No. 4, it's a great sign that the collective assumption is that both are going to be pretty reliant on teammates and coaches to help make their careers. While, in my opinion, that's part of the equation for a future successful team, it's also the kind of player that can be found later on in the draft.

IMO, that's the difference between the "first overall" type quarterback, and you're run of the mill first rounder. We already have a standard level first rounder who hardly needs to be shipped out of town on a rail.

Without question, if you can get a first overall type at No. 4, you take him, but I do not believe that you can have that surefire first overall guy who falls to No. 4.

Matt Ryan fell to No. 3 because he had a Parcells' type picking at number one, and the Rams had Bulger at QB at the time (which didn't make it the right move, simply defensable). The only first overall type who has ever fallen to No. 4, I think, is Philip Rivers, and he wasn't even the first quarterback selected.

I guess, if the Redskins come to the conclusion that (for example) Sam Bradford is a way better player than Jimmy Clausen, and Clausen goes No. 1 overall, they could be defended for taking Bradford at No. 4. But that's it. That's the only way.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=SmootSmack;654963]Jets:

LT: Ferguson-1st round (4th overall)
LG: Faneca-1st round (26th overall)
C: Mangold-1st round (29th overall)
RG: Moore-undrafted
RT: Woody-1st round (17th overall)[/quote]But when you think of how the Jets built this line (and even how the Ravens built theirs), it's mostly because of the value they put on the position. I mean, Mangold has developed into the league's best Center, which means he was way more valuable than the 29th overall pick, but no team besides the Jets was really considering him in the first round. They have him because they put a premium on a position that a team that continually trots out Casey Rabach clearly could care less about. It's a team that spent the 4th overall pick on a left tackle because they felt like if they could fill the position, it would free them up to do other things with the offense. And both Faneca and Woody were big money acquisitions.

The Ravens took Oher knowing that they probably could have convinced Anderson to give them one more season at the RT spot and got a high level of play out of him, but even with a young, elite LT, the Ravens took a guy that a bunch of other teams had undervalued. It's not like the Ravens didn't have needs elsewhere (such as WR or CB) that could have helped them just as much. They just prioritized the line. Flacco is just a standard-level first round talent, much like Jason Campbell, Josh Freeman, Jay Cutler, etc. But you keep feeding his offense talent, and he'll keep winning.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=GTripp0012;654978]Inevitably, though, the same sort of argument can be applied to this quarterback class. The Rams pick first. They can take Suh, Clausen, or Bradford. Without making the misguided assumption that the Rams front office knows more than the collective, they might opt to go with the dominant defensive prospect at that position over the available quarterbacks.

If there's a situation where both Clausen and Bradford are available at No. 4, it's a great sign that the collective assumption is that both are going to be pretty reliant on teammates and coaches to help make their careers. While, in my opinion, that's part of the equation for a future successful team, it's also the kind of player that can be found later on in the draft.

IMO, that's the difference between the "first overall" type quarterback, and you're run of the mill first rounder. We already have a standard level first rounder who hardly needs to be shipped out of town on a rail.

[B]Without question, if you can get a first overall type at No. 4, you take him, but I do not believe that you can have that surefire first overall guy who falls to No. 4.[/B]

Matt Ryan fell to No. 3 because he had a Parcells' type picking at number one, and the Rams had Bulger at QB at the time (which didn't make it the right move, simply defensable). The only first overall type who has ever fallen to No. 4, I think, is Philip Rivers, and he wasn't even the first quarterback selected.

I guess, if the Redskins come to the conclusion that (for example) Sam Bradford is a way better player than Jimmy Clausen, and Clausen goes No. 1 overall, they could be defended for taking Bradford at No. 4. But that's it. That's the only way.[/quote]

Nice GTripp. Although I like Bradford, he's not without some legitimate questions and neither is Clausen. And as stated, we might not get first pick of the two. If we pick one and they end up not starting material at QB, what do we do? 2nd or 3rd string 'em? Maybe PS? If we take LT and he's not up to what we expect at least there's a good chance he can play RT or guard. We need those too and it wouldn't be a complete waste. As much as I like Bradford he's only had 2 full years and although he may be able to fully recover from his injury I think taking him at #4 is a big risk. I don't think it would hurt Clausen to stay in school another year either. He's had 1 good year that I know of. There may be some question about JC but there is no question about our o-line. We could use help at every position there. I understand 100% what SS is saying about reaching and I agree, but I think taking one of these 2 QB's is as much of a reach as taking someone like Davis or a couple of the other linemen at #4.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;654768]ok food for thought. If we are going to go into the draft with the mindset that OL is the need, and then use that thinking to draft a t with the fourth pick and with the 36 pick to draft a c/g (ie a player who can do both ). Why use a late round pick on a QB? Most of the good QBs in the NFL are first round guys. We have JC for next year. I am not sold on any of the QBs in the draft at all as being top notch NFL starting QB material. My point is keep JC this year see how he performs for Shanny. Draft OL and Defense. If we are going to be using more of a 3-4 scheme we need defensive players who would fit that system. Use this draft to rebuild alot of the team and worry about drafting a QB next year. Why rush the QB position, AND why draft a qb late in the draft (much higher fail rate with later round guys and we already have a late rounder on the team)? I just would not waste a pick on a QB this year and I believe that is what we would be doing if we don't use the first pick on one. EVEN then drafting a qb at 4 would be stupid as well because that is not the IMMEDIATE need of this football team.[/quote]

I get what you're saying but nobody ever likes any quarterback ANY year in our fanbase it seems. It's like a relationship, sometimes you just have to let it go and allow it to happen, maybe not this year, but later. You can draft a QB and still not start him game 1.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=SmootSmack;654797]Why not draft a QB? It doesn't make much sense to just say let's just wait a year see what happens with Campbell and then get a QB in 2011. If we're in position to get one now, why not? He'll have a year in our system going into 2011.

I know we need linemen, but I think too many of us are thinking well let's just draft anyone that plays the position so we can pile up players in that position and hope a few stick. That doesn't make much sense to me. Plus, all the linemen in the world won't matter if there's no QB.[/quote]
Exactly.. do people think with our 5 picks that's going to be our starting 5 linemen? You can find linemen by other means much easier than you can a QB.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=SmootSmack;654816]I think sometimes people think saying you need strong line play makes you a more intelligent fan, as if saying QB play is important is something only casual, even ignorant fans who don't know any better would say.

Line play is important but too many of us are really underestimating the importance of good QB play. A good QB can make an average line look much better than it really is.[/quote]
warner, big ben, rodgers, etc

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=WaldSkins;654971]I feel like i've seen you type this about 238 times already[/quote]
well the alternative has been posted 238 times by about 45 different people

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=WaldSkins;654971]I feel like i've seen you type this about 238 times already[/quote]

You're watching me type? Are you the angel on my shoulder...or the devil?

And it's only been 224 times

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

Here is a question and I don't know how measurable it is. Lets say this draft class had Sanchez, Stafford, Bradford, and Clausen who would go first out of the 4?

Seems like every year there is some great QB coming out and then they fizzle.

Look at it this way when Lebron James came out he was a shore fire good pick, are any of these QBs that shore fire?

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=mredskins;655010]Here is a question and I don't know how measurable it is. Lets say this draft class had Sanchez, Stafford, Bradford, and Clausen who would go first out of the 4?

Seems like every year there is some great QB coming out and then they fizzle.

Look at it this way when Lebron James came out he was a shore fire good pick, are any of these QBs that shore fire?[/quote]

I don't know that any QB is ever "sure fire" in the draft. Many questions surrounded even Peyton Manning as part of the draft process.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

Much of this thread goes back to Vinny's line: "best player available."

I mean we are all opinionated on the players & the positions, but this team is not in a position to draft for a couple of needs & suddenly become a contender. There are several holes to fill.

That said, I see the #4 pick being whoever is highest on the team's board, give or take a couple of slots. I don't see them picking Berry. With Haslet on board, it makes Suh (best in draft) less likely if he's available doesn't it? I see him as a 3 technique DT. Maybe if we got him, Haslett would stick w/the 4-3? I know we can't assume he wants to run a 3-4.

As for ArtMonkinHall; drafting a qb in the late rounds makes perfect sense. Drafting a qb anywhere makes sense for that matter. Colt was drafted in the 6th because we needed a young backup & they liked him. If Collins is gone this year the team will need another backup at least. (I wish we could get Daniel back)

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=Lotus;655012]I don't know that any QB is ever "sure fire" in the draft. Many questions surrounded even Peyton Manning as part of the draft process.[/quote]

Yeah, many scouts, if not most, had Leaf rated higher for his arm strength. The last consensus #1 QB pick I can remember was MIchael Vick. Even if he hadn't gotten in legal trouble, I think people would still debate his status as a franchise qb. (he did help them sell a hell of a lot of tickets in ATL though)

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=freddyg12;655020]Yeah, many scouts, if not most, had Leaf rated higher for his arm strength. The last consensus #1 QB pick I can remember was MIchael Vick. Even if he hadn't gotten in legal trouble, I think people would still debate his status as a franchise qb. (he did help them sell a hell of a lot of tickets in ATL though)[/quote]

Funny thing is even with Vick the Chargers traded out of that pick

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=mredskins;655010]Here is a question and I don't know how measurable it is. Lets say this draft class had Sanchez, Stafford, Bradford, and Clausen who would go first out of the 4?

[I]Seems like every year there is some great QB coming out and then they fizzle. [/I]

Look at it this way when Lebron James came out he was a shore fire good pick, are any of these QBs that shore fire?[/quote]

Thats called the media for you. They want people to watch the pre-draft shows, read pre-draft articles, etc. and anticipate the draft so they can get people to view more ads, etc. This is a very uninpressive QB class. even the media isn't overly excited about any of those guys, so that should tell us something. Not a one of them is worth a top 10 pick. but because of the premium put on the position, atleast 2 of them will probably be drafted there.

if there was ever a draft to trade down in, this is it. hopefully there will be an elite player at a position some team needs really bad and we can find a partner.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=SmootSmack;655022]Funny thing is even with Vick the Chargers traded out of that pick[/quote]

yeah, they made up for drafting Leaf by doing that trade & getting LT/not getting vick.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;655026]Thats called the media for you. They want people to watch the pre-draft shows, read pre-draft articles, etc. and anticipate the draft so they can get people to view more ads, etc. This is a very uninpressive QB class. even the media isn't overly excited about any of those guys, so that should tell us something. Not a one of them is worth a top 10 pick. but because of the premium put on the position, atleast 2 of them will probably be drafted there.

if there was ever a draft to trade down in, this is it. hopefully there will be an elite player at a position some team needs really bad and we can find a partner.[/quote]


Pretty much what I thought about the media. So many guys are hyped that never pan out.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=freddyg12;655033]yeah, they made up for drafting Leaf by doing that trade & getting LT/not getting vick.[/quote]

and Brees and Nate Kaeding (of course they didn't get much out of Brees in the long run)

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

I still dont understand why SD just let Brees walk. I'd be pissed if the skins had a franchise-type player and they just let him walk for no compensation.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

brees was injured or coming off injury. i lived in SD during brees tenure there and the fans werent all that high on him even though i watched the guy make plays and win games for them when they had zero identity on offense.

i think with his size, alot of people in SD viewed brees as a doug flutie type; a gamer but his size limited him from elevating his level of play to something elite.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=over the mountain;655053]brees was injured or coming off injury. i lived in SD during brees tenure there and the fans werent all that high on him even though i watched the guy make plays and win games for them when they had zero identity on offense.

i think with his size, alot of people in SD viewed brees as a doug flutie type; a gamer but his size limited him from elevating his level of play to something elite.[/quote]

i remember that, but thats just the thing - SD had an inaccurate view of brees when they were the ones who had the most intel on him. the contract he signed with NO was pretty substantial. i sure wish we had gone after him.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

If I recall correctly, SD drafted Rivers (Manning) the year they let Brees go (after he injured his shoulder). IMO, they did the right thing.

Re: ESPN's Schefter channels his energy into NFL
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;655099]If I recall correctly, SD drafted Rivers (Manning) the year they let Brees go (after he injured his shoulder). IMO, they did the right thing.[/quote]

No they drafted Rivers like 2 years before they let Bree's go.